# Survey: Is firing people a bad thing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 6, 2006, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survey-is-firing-people-a-bad-thing/338740 "2006-01-06T15:24:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![fishbicycle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aeb1de/32.png) [@fishbicycle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fishbicycle)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2006, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survey-is-firing-people-a-bad-thing/338740/41 "2006-01-07T22:06:42Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Good analogy. Now, when surgeons work, do they stab at the patient recklessly, dancing about in glee, using dirty bandages, tossing away the offending body part and cursing it and hoping it will die? If you are comparing this to what happens when bad people get fired from good companies for the right reasons, I have to ask you in all seriousness: What color is the sky in your world? ---
**Author:** ![interface2x](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c0e974/32.png) [@interface2x](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/interface2x)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2006, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survey-is-firing-people-a-bad-thing/338740/42 "2006-01-07T22:07:44Z")
Could it be possible that the reason why you notice people bitching about their awful bosses is that so few people complain about it that you notice them all? Sure, there are asshole bosses who get on power trips and abuse their authority. The same can be said for police officers, but it doesn’t mean we should lessen good cops’ abilities to do their jobs. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2006, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survey-is-firing-people-a-bad-thing/338740/43 "2006-01-07T22:37:42Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Good analogy. Now, when surgeons work, do they stab at the patient recklessly, dancing about in glee, using dirty bandages, tossing away the offending body part and cursing it and hoping it will die? What amazes me is that you expect to get reasonable discussion of corporate issues when you portray managers and executives this way. I don’t even know why I bothered responding in the first place, you keep going back to the executive as moustache-twirling villian as “evidence” supporting your viewpoint. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2006, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survey-is-firing-people-a-bad-thing/338740/44 "2006-01-07T22:49:14Z")
> [@Hakuna Matata](#): > > I think you should address the point and analogy made by John Carter of Mars and his analogy of a divorce. That is exactly what I thought of reading your topic here. > > There is a huge potential when people break up or divorce. Feelings are hurt, people are hurt financially, etc–very similar to a firing. Much more is hurt by divorce than firings I think (no cite–just my opinion), yet we (and I am assuming you) would never require people stay together so their feelings wouldn’t get hurt would you? These people are all part of society afterwards and many dont’ have support structures in place. Many get remarried and have issues there too—again not much different than a workplace. So I think his analogy is a very good one. > > Have you ever broken up with someone? Got divorced? Why did you do that–weren’ t you concerned about the impact on society then? About the hurt feelings of your spouse? > > I am curious as to your thoughts about the analogy. Your analogy would work if one man (or one woman) could have 10, 100, 1000, 10,000 or 100,000 spouses. But the fact is that in our society, we have this one spouse at a time deal going. Which means that in a divorce, both parties face equal risks. In fact all the stats indicate that both [parents very likely suffer in a divorce, economically and personally](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divorce#Divorce.27s_financial_implications). In a firing, one party, the fired one, tends to suffer much greater problems than the other – in fact, as has been repeatedly pointed out on this very thread, the firer may benefit greatly from a firing. So it’s not a valid analogy. But there is one point that is kinda germane here: it used to be that women suffered much more greatly than men in a divorce, in financial terms. They generally got child custody, but the didn’t get any extra money, and as it was customary for the man to be the “breadwinner” in the family, they often had little in the way of experience and/or job skills to make a living wage. Fortunately, in the 50s and 60s the total unfairness of this situation was widely recognized, and law were written giving the wife equal share in whatever wealth/income the couple possessed. Clearly, we as a group (Dopers and society at large) haven’t recognized the huge inequity in the harm that firing does the firee vs. the firer, but we’ll get there, I’m sure, in a few decades. Less, if things go well. I want to really thank you, Hakuna and John Carter, for bringing this point up. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2006, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survey-is-firing-people-a-bad-thing/338740/45 "2006-01-07T22:52:36Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Exactly right. Case in point: my father spent some 30 years with the same employer, an employer that changed parent companies several times. One day, he and several coworkers were transferred from their long-time employer to another subsidiary. Three years later, the parent company decieded that subsidiary had grown too fast too soon and Dad was caught in a RIF, along with almost his entire department. Dad was 57 at the time and watching him mail out resumé after resumé, over 100 in all, was painful. > > Dad finally found a job with the help of an old friend–they had worked together prior to the transfer–but he had to take about a 50% salary cut. But you’ve got no problem with the stress your father underwent so the compnay could make more money … right? ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2006, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survey-is-firing-people-a-bad-thing/338740/46 "2006-01-07T23:40:15Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Good analogy. Now, when surgeons work, do they stab at the patient recklessly, dancing about in glee, using dirty bandages, tossing away the offending body part and cursing it and hoping it will die? While this may be true, I fail to see how it relates to someone being fired. Can you be more plain for the analogy impaired? ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survey-is-firing-people-a-bad-thing/338740/47 "2006-01-08T02:11:46Z")
Business pick up a lot of the cost for a firing. They pay unemployment insurance - that program is 100% funded by unemployment taxes. In the case of a RIF there are almost always severance packages, transition help, resume help, etc. available. Last RIF we went through gave employees 30 days notice during which they could come into the office and use the equipment to work - or not, we’d pay them regardless. We had resume counselors and headhunters on site and were handing out referrals to other services that the company would pay for. Then people got severance pay on top of that. Furthermore, we have a global economy. The higher the burden we put on U.S. companies, the more attractive offshoring gets. The more attractive just picking up the whole darn company and moving it to China gets. Or just closing it down because you can’t compete with a company founded in Bangkok that can do what you can do for ten cents on the dollar because they don’t have to pay benefits. You want jobs in the U.S? Don’t raise the bar so damn hard U.S. companies can’t compete. Welcome to the new global economy - the bar is going to get a lot lower in the U.S. (the nice thing is that its already a lot higher in Bangalore and Shenzhen). And protectionism won’t help, its a big damn market out there and the quickest way to become isolated in it is to put it protectionist policies. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survey-is-firing-people-a-bad-thing/338740/48 "2006-01-08T02:22:57Z")
**Evil Captor** , since you wish to debate with those who respond to your “poll”, I’m going to move this from IMHO to Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survey-is-firing-people-a-bad-thing/338740/49 "2006-01-08T03:50:52Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Come to think of it, mental illness isn’t any sort of “Get Out of Jail Free” card. I know someone who once had a job in a restaurant as part of a work rehab program. The program stopped allowing him to go out on assignments after he was caught eating out of a pot. Excellent point. And one which reminds me of arguments I sometimes have with my sister who has bleeding heart liberal tendencies (despite having voted for dum-dum). I ride the bus on occasion, for awhile because I was rebuilding my financial life and had no vehicle, then because it was to save money etc. Anyway, I digress. On the bus there are a number of mentally challenged adults. They manage to get themselves up and dressed and to their jobs, whatever they may be day after day. So it’s not like the whole (my sister’s tired argument) “well yes, but they may not have the intelligence and powers that you have, you’re really smart and strong (no I’m a ditzy blond and I manage) some people don’t have that”. Puh LEASE…if the mentally challenged people can do it ANYONE can. ---
**Author:** ![hannable1975](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a87d85/32.png) [@hannable1975](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hannable1975)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survey-is-firing-people-a-bad-thing/338740/50 "2006-01-08T03:56:03Z")
[QUOTE=Evil Captor] Clearly, we as a group (Dopers and society at large) haven’t recognized the huge inequity in the harm that firing does the firee vs. the firer, but we’ll get there, I’m sure, in a few decades. Less, if things go well. [QUOTE] Harm? People are fired by need. Either they need to be fired (poor workmanship, violation of work place practices) or the company needs to fire them (loss of contracts, production, or profiibilty). I live in an “at will” employment state. It’s pretty simple: you wark at the will of your employer. I have several people that work for me, and i could fire them all tomorrow on the basis that i no longer wish to employ them. Now, they could then apply for unemployment, or try to find if they had been fired for any discrimintory purpose, etc., but as long as i cross my I’s and dot my T’s I can do just that. At the same time, my boss can simply walk into my office and announce it’s time for me to go, and I am at the same whim. I kinda like it that way - I hate to think that companies can be forced to keep excessive numbers of employees because unions protect their jobs, or that you are morally obligated to keep the population as a whole on a payroll. Hell, if I am payig taxes for the unemplyed, why should i worry about putting someone onto that payroll? I also know that through a system of properly utilized employee reprimands and procedure, 9 of 10 times an employee will take the hint and terminate their employment before I have to fire them. ---
**Author:** ![hannable1975](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a87d85/32.png) [@hannable1975](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hannable1975)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survey-is-firing-people-a-bad-thing/338740/51 "2006-01-08T04:00:29Z")
> [@CanvasShoes](#): > > Excellent point. And one which reminds me of arguments I sometimes have with my sister who has bleeding heart liberal tendencies (despite having voted for dum-dum). > > I ride the bus on occasion, for awhile because I was rebuilding my financial life and had no vehicle, then because it was to save money etc. Anyway, I digress. > > On the bus there are a number of mentally challenged adults. They manage to get themselves up and dressed and to their jobs, whatever they may be day after day. So it’s not like the whole (my sister’s tired argument) “well yes, but they may not have the intelligence and powers that you have, you’re really smart and strong (no I’m a ditzy blond and I manage) some people don’t have that”. > > Puh LEASE…if the mentally challenged people can do it ANYONE can. Exactly - and by and large there are GREAT numbers of disabled/handicapped/retarded/insert proper phrase of the day here people who are gainfully employed. What amazes me is when you know someone, as I did, who will go OVER 18 MONTHS with no job, because ‘the jobs I find don’t pay enough’. Tough shit! I learened from a bag of m&ms at about age 5 somethings more than nothing any day of the week. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survey-is-firing-people-a-bad-thing/338740/52 "2006-01-08T05:24:05Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > \In a firing, one party, the fired one, tends to suffer much greater problems than the other – in fact, as has been repeatedly pointed out on this very thread, the firer may benefit greatly from a firing. So it’s not a valid analogy. I can see from this comment that you’ve never had to fire anybody. May you never. I’ve had to fire a single mom with three small children. Why? Because she wasn’t doing her work and the other two _good_ employees there, who also needed their jobs, told me that if I didn’t stop giving her One More Chance and do what I knew a had to do, they were going to quit. What would _YOU_ have done? Me, I fired her, as I should have done three months earlier. > [@](#): > > I want to really thank you, Hakuna and John Carter, for bringing this point up. You’re welcome, but a reasonable person won’t think the divorce analogy plays to your favor the way you seem to think it does. > [@Evil Captor](#): > > I’ve read enough stories about asshole bosses on the Dope to have a well-founded idea that they exist, and that they fire people (among other things) for little or not good reason. I know some of you folks don’t wanna believe that anyone in management could ever be anything less than saintly, but to put it mildly, there exists considerable contrary opinion on that topic. The minority of supervisors that you describe usually get fired themselves pretty quickly. (They are bad for business) If you want to gripe about a few bad bosses, that subject is a different one than your thread title. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survey-is-firing-people-a-bad-thing/338740/53 "2006-01-08T05:59:59Z")
It’s pretty simple to decide if the ability to fire is bad or not. Imagine the situation if you could not fire anyone. Would you start if a company under those circumstances? The idea that a company “dump[s] the social and human costs of this on society” when that person is fired makes the false assumption that once a company hires someone, that company must be responsible for that person from then on. No, if a person is unemployable, that person dumps the cost of supporting himself on society. No one owes anyone else a job. And just because you created some jobs doesn’t mean you are bound by some societal contract to maintain those jobs. That would be absurd. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survey-is-firing-people-a-bad-thing/338740/54 "2006-01-08T06:18:22Z")
To answer the thread title: No. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survey-is-firing-people-a-bad-thing/338740/55 "2006-01-08T07:00:49Z")
Why do people think they’re entitled to a job? A private corporation is not in business to provide social welfare. They hire people to do certain duties and the company recompenses them accordingly. In a society where basic fucking competence is a rare find, a boss should take everyone who is not doing their job and stick their foot so far up their ass they have brush their teeth with shoepolish - then if they don’t start working, fire them. Anyone who think that a company owes a salary to someone who doesn’t do their job, do this: hire someone off the street to clean your house, pay them $50/day to do it. See how long you keep paying them when your house is still filthy every day when you get home. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survey-is-firing-people-a-bad-thing/338740/56 "2006-01-08T07:04:14Z")
> [@Curious Joe](#): > > Altogether, they have a better quality of life than the US workers. Can you substantiate that statement? Just curious, Joe. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survey-is-firing-people-a-bad-thing/338740/57 "2006-01-08T07:15:05Z")
> [@Curious Joe](#): > > Anyone here for the European Model? I spoke to some people from Switzerland at a class once. Their model was that they were on contracts for a certain number of years, and were pretty much unfireable during that time. At the end of the contract, however, they could be let go for any or no reason. What do people think about this model? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survey-is-firing-people-a-bad-thing/338740/58 "2006-01-08T07:21:54Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I spoke to some people from Switzerland at a class once. Their model was that they were on contracts for a certain number of years, and were pretty much unfireable during that time. At the end of the contract, however, they could be let go for any or no reason. > > What do people think about this model? Obviously, when hiring, you try your best to identify a person that will work out. Sometimes you don’t succeed. I wouldn’t want to hire someone I couldn’t let go if they weren’t working out. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survey-is-firing-people-a-bad-thing/338740/59 "2006-01-08T07:22:20Z")
**EC** , some questions for you. In the places I’ve worked, execs are a lot more at risk than workers. Do you think firing a VP who has not met her goals for two years is okay? She has probably made a good salary. I assume that you’re okay with the reasons for immediate termination that many companies have, such as drugs and violence. Do you think someone who hit a co-worker deserves a second chance? How about someone selling drugs on company time? The places I’ve worked have had very clear performance improvement plans, where someone at risk is given a very clear set of objectives. This is not a coverup for firing - I know for a fact that the plan where I work now is targeted towards keeping, not firing, people. How do you feel about firing someone who fails the plan, or who doesn’t even try? How about failing more than once? Remember that Maureen said Joan was on a few of these. Now a comment. Layoffs are bad, but necessary. If a company hired too many people, some have to go. Many are for divisions, and in Silicon Valley being laid off is no longer considered a stigma. Layoffs may also be a sign of a company going under, and getting out early might be a good thing, especially when there is money. I’ve never been fired or laid off, but I did take a package, which was one of the smartest things I ever did. I got a job quickly, got a good bit of money, and my old center went downhill fast. A few people were prevented from taking it, because they were considered valuable, but both left within six months. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survey-is-firing-people-a-bad-thing/338740/60 "2006-01-08T08:06:25Z")
Well, I just was fired, more precisely my contract was not renewed, my quality surveys were always in a perennial seesaw, it is very hard to work with an accent when people in the US are becoming fed up on being transferred to tech centers overseas, hard to prove that that they were in America when they reached me. So, as this was a service based on scores from customers, it did not matter that I had always high scores in my troubleshooting skills. So, back to the worse job of all that is to search for a job, however this time I am not complaining about lack of health care, as I was officially a temp I never got health care even though I worked there for more than a year. Now, having said all that I do in the end agree that firing people should be allowed, as other poster said, it depends on the situation if that is bad or good. Because I see that in the future people will have less job security, then other safety nets like universal health care should be applied. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survey-is-firing-people-a-bad-thing/338740.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survey-is-firing-people-a-bad-thing/338740.md?page=4)