# Survival of the fittest religion **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 2, 2005, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survival-of-the-fittest-religion/324462 "2005-10-02T16:51:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2005, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survival-of-the-fittest-religion/324462/41 "2005-10-03T20:54:13Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > Like I said, those for whom it did not resonate were killed by the others. Selective breeding. You also said that you have no proof. > [@](#): > > Einstein let his religious distaste for quantum mechanics ( “God does not play dice” ) overcome his scientific abilities; it crippled his ability to make any new discoveries. No True Scientist? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Controvert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dec6dc/32.png) [@The\_Controvert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Controvert)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2005, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survival-of-the-fittest-religion/324462/42 "2005-10-04T16:09:19Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Why is _human psyche_ predisposed to resonate with religious messages? I think there is evidence that religious messages resonate with humans. There is evidence in the widespread adoption of religion. There is evidence when you talk to religious folks. This is not proof, but it is evidence. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2005, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survival-of-the-fittest-religion/324462/43 "2005-10-04T17:16:01Z")
> [@The Controvert](#): > > I think there is evidence that religious messages resonate with humans. There is evidence in the widespread adoption of religion. There is evidence when you talk to religious folks. This is not proof, but it is evidence. Still the question remains, Why? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2005, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survival-of-the-fittest-religion/324462/44 "2005-10-04T17:53:40Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Still the question remains, Why? I think for many there is a search for meaning. The big questions. Whdo certain things, good or bad happen and what do they mean? Is death the end? Unfortunatly I also see organized religion among other things, as a reflection of people’s need to want a higher authority than their own conscience. "Please, Mr. Preacher man, tell me God’s will so I’ll know how to act and what is right and wrong, wothout really deciding for myself. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2005, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survival-of-the-fittest-religion/324462/45 "2005-10-04T21:05:21Z")
Religion is nothing more than a giant con game in the first place. It’s not a matter of survival of the fittest, it’s a matter of who can promise the most palatable lies to the suckers and get their money. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2005, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survival-of-the-fittest-religion/324462/46 "2005-10-04T23:44:33Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Religion is nothing more than a giant con game in the first place. It’s not a matter of survival of the fittest, it’s a matter of who can promise the most palatable lies to the suckers and get their money. Yeah, that’s it because the people that start religions all were making TONS of money at it. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survival-of-the-fittest-religion/324462/47 "2005-10-06T14:56:17Z")
Yup, they sure were. Cite: All the verses where a priests got the steak after “sacrificing” the sweatmeats, and the blood to god, also, all the clothes they got, etc. P.S. Yes, I know that the priests were not the ones who started the religions. However, it is a pretty good bet that OG got some of the same. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survival-of-the-fittest-religion/324462/48 "2005-10-06T19:06:58Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > Yup, they sure were. > > Cite: All the verses where a priests got the steak after “sacrificing” the sweatmeats, and the blood to god, also, all the clothes they got, etc. > > P.S. Yes, I know that the priests were not the ones who started the religions. However, it is a pretty good bet that OG got some of the same. My argument in this has been that people see a sort of socio-political profit and glom onto the religion. Certainly the people that started all religions were trying to create a social movement that would make life better for them and those around them, and this is a sort of profit, but that’s not the same. The thing I am arguing against, is that the inevitable corruption of a good idea isn’t indicative of the original idea. This thread shows an ignorant narrowly defined idea of religion, that allows one to stand up off in the distance and ridicule those “other idiots”. It’s the one finger pointing out and three fingers pointing back. Erek ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survival-of-the-fittest-religion/324462/49 "2005-10-06T19:09:41Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > My argument in this has been that people see a sort of socio-political profit and glom onto the religion. Certainly the people that started all religions were trying to create a social movement that would make life better for them and those around them, Cite? > [@](#): > > This thread shows an ignorant narrowly defined idea of religion, that allows one to stand up off in the distance and ridicule those “other idiots”. It’s the one finger pointing out and three fingers pointing back. Boy, you really have no idea what you are talking about, do you? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survival-of-the-fittest-religion/324462/50 "2005-10-06T19:29:41Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > My argument in this has been that people see a sort of socio-political profit and glom onto the religion. Certainly the people that started all religions were trying to create a social movement that would make life better for them and those around them, and this is a sort of profit, but that’s not the same. > > The thing I am arguing against, is that the inevitable corruption of a good idea isn’t indicative of the original idea. This thread shows an ignorant narrowly defined idea of religion, that allows one to stand up off in the distance and ridicule those “other idiots”. It’s the one finger pointing out and three fingers pointing back. > > Erek There are religions founded for purely commercial reasons (Elron, for instance). But religions inevitably invite corruption by saying that the leaders have a special conduit to the almighty, and the followers had better obey and not ask questions. This doesn’t mean that all the leaders will be corrupt, just that when you get a leader who is corrupt he can clean up and fleece the suckers more effectively. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Controvert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dec6dc/32.png) [@The\_Controvert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Controvert)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survival-of-the-fittest-religion/324462/51 "2005-10-06T20:29:01Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Still the question remains, Why? Why not? As I mentioned in the OP, people gotta trust each other. Other people exploit that trust to exert control. It turns out mythological dieties work great. If higher math resonated with folks, you’d have rock star mathematicians hoodwinkin’ the slack jawed yokels. > [@Mangetout](#): > > “look!” exclaimed the puddle, “this hole in the ground is shaped _perfectly_ to fit me, what are the chances of that happening?” ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survival-of-the-fittest-religion/324462/52 "2005-10-06T21:50:53Z")
> [@The Controvert](#): > > Why not? As I mentioned in the OP, people gotta trust each other. Other people exploit that trust to exert control. It turns out mythological dieties work great. If higher math resonated with folks, you’d have rock star mathematicians hoodwinkin’ the slack jawed yokels. Right, and that higher math system would be a ‘religion’. Religion is only to blame for those problems because you are defining those problems as the purview of religion. This thread is a truism. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survival-of-the-fittest-religion/324462/53 "2005-10-06T21:54:32Z")
Your what-ever-I-feel-like-it-should-be definition of religion aside, most worldly religions claim to have goodness of mankind as their purview. The fact is that they seem to do the opposite, whither you believe it or not… ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survival-of-the-fittest-religion/324462/54 "2005-10-06T22:31:01Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > Your what-ever-I-feel-like-it-should-be definition of religion aside, most worldly religions claim to have goodness of mankind as their purview. The fact is that they seem to do the opposite, whither you believe it or not… Can I have a cite where Hinduism has such a claim please? Erek ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survival-of-the-fittest-religion/324462/55 "2005-10-06T22:35:59Z")
Oh, I see. I did not say “most worldly religions”. I said “all worldly religions” In addition, I said several other typical strawman atheist statements, which will come up later in the thread. So sorry, I 'll be a little clearer next time. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survival-of-the-fittest-religion/324462/56 "2005-10-06T22:42:32Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > Oh, I see. I did not say “most worldly religions”. > > I said “all worldly religions” > > In addition, I said several other typical strawman atheist statements, which will come up later in the thread. So sorry, I 'll be a little clearer next time. So I see, MY definition of religion is fucked up because your blanket statements only apply to “MOST” wordly religions. Do you have a list of ALL wordly religions, and can you post it and put a yay or nay based upon whether or not they agree with your definition? Erek ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survival-of-the-fittest-religion/324462/57 "2005-10-06T22:46:09Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > So I see, MY definition of religion is fucked up because your blanket statements only apply to “MOST” worldly religions. That’s right. You are a cherry picker from this religion or that, while I am stating something that is true of most religions. And no, I don’t care to spend the next hour listing them. You will simpluy insist that the definition of religion I, and most people grew up with is wrong, and that only yours is right, with the proof being… ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survival-of-the-fittest-religion/324462/58 "2005-10-06T23:12:46Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > That’s right. You are a cherry picker from this religion or that, while I am stating something that is true of most religions. > > And no, I don’t care to spend the next hour listing them. You will simpluy insist that the definition of religion I, and most people grew up with is wrong, and that only yours is right, with the proof being… See, what I am really saying is that YOU ARE WRONG. That your claim is baseless. And I disagree with the definition you posed for religion, and doubt that “Most People” share it. Now we are on great debates, and the rules of the forum are on my side. Either provide cites to prove your incredibly specious claim, or shut up about it. If increasing understanding of the truth is what you mean by your statement, then science also fits your definition of religion. Judaism most certainly doesn’t share your defintion of religion. Judaism doesn’t attempt to elevate anyone outside of it’s particular tribe, neither does Zoroastrianism. Christianity I’ll give you, but Christianity is hardly “Most religions”. Buddhism is specifically personal and I’d say your statement is probably something of a side-effect of Buddhism, whereas Daoism isn’t even “Trying” to do anything. Erek ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survival-of-the-fittest-religion/324462/59 "2005-10-10T04:40:34Z")
> [@The Controvert](#): > > Why not? As I mentioned in the OP, people gotta trust each other. Other people exploit that trust to exert control. It turns out mythological dieties work great. If higher math resonated with folks, you’d have rock star mathematicians hoodwinkin’ the slack jawed yokels. It appears that you are talking about gullibility of masses and duplicity of those who exploit them. Every religion goes through such stages. However, can it be taken as a whole essence of religion? There are plenty bad doctors, but nobody seriously suggests that Medicine is a sham. Bad lawyers don’t cancel earning for Justice. All the bad plumbers don’t put nobody in mind to renounce idea of Plumbing. Fundamental ideas always immeasurably greater then mortal practitioners. Why do modern people extoll Medicine, Justice, Engineering, Plumbing etc, but feel need to bring down Religion? ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survival-of-the-fittest-religion/324462/60 "2005-10-10T06:07:14Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Why do modern people extol Medicine, Justice, Engineering, Plumbing etc, but feel need to bring down Religion? I can not speak for any other aplumbers, but here is why I feel the need to put down plumbing. When I was a child, I was told that The Big Book of Home Plumbing Repair contained all answers to things both plumbing related and non. Moral lessons, tips on how to live, and the reality of life after death. As I grew older, however, I realized that for every moral lesson, there was also a picture of a plumber bending down, without his pants being tight enough. For every moral lesson, some scene of god slaughtering this group or that. Furthermore, I came to realize some of the plumbing diagrams were self-contradictory. As I moved past a love of plumbing, people continued to berate me for not trusting everything in the book. Oh, and what’s more, medicine, Engineering, and religion don’t make many promises about what they are supposed to deliver, but they **do** follow through on those promises, unlike plumbing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survival-of-the-fittest-religion/324462.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survival-of-the-fittest-religion/324462.md?page=4)