# Survivor 12/12/04 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 12, 2004, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-12-04/279509 "2004-12-12T23:23:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-12-04/279509/41 "2004-12-13T15:01:16Z")
Oh… my WAG for Survivor: Palau–they have a big physical challenge to seed the two tribes. Odd-numbered finalists, team A. Even-numbered, team B. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-12-04/279509/42 "2004-12-13T15:06:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Did Chris lie to Julie? You bet. Did he use his relationship that he built with Julie to do it? Yup. My point was that Chris lied and cheated as much, if not more so, than Twila, yet the jury members were quick to forgive HIM. Twila told a few lies and they raked her over the COALS. Why was one lie so much more aggregious than the other? Because one deliverer happened to be _charming_. BARF. Diplomacy has its place and Twila was the worst at playing the suck-up game. So her loss is no surprise. But I was glad to see that Julie, at least, FINALLY saw Chris for the player he was, even though it was too late to affect the vote. “Do you even HAVE feelings, Chris?” Bwa ha ha. And yes, Chris overcame adversity to win, which was a great feat. But I think Twila did the same thing. She was a misfit from Day One with the girly girls. And she and Julie managed to make it through intact on the tribe switch even though they were outnumbered significantly. I was happy that the two underdogs made it to the finals. I would have also been happy to see Julie there because she made it much longer than I thought she would. Eliza overcame a lot of obstacles but my personal dislike for her gets in the way of logic. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-12-04/279509/43 "2004-12-13T15:14:34Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > My point was that Chris lied and cheated as much, if not more so, than Twila, yet the jury members were quick to forgive HIM. Twila told a few lies and they raked her over the COALS. Why was one lie so much more aggregious than the other? Because one deliverer happened to be _charming_. BARF. Well, I tend to forgive people who show actual remorse. Twila was a bitch, through and through. Chris was playing both sides (unlike Twila), he was building relationships (unlike Twila) and he remained pleasant company (very much unlike Twila). Twila BURIED FOOD to keep it away from Eliza, for chrissake! ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-12-04/279509/44 "2004-12-13T15:21:53Z")
> [@](#): > > umm… you do realize the jury was 5/2 women/men, right? And even if you discount Ami and Scout, it’s still 3/2. Just trying to figure out where you’re pointing the finger of accusatory blame, here… You don’t have to be a man to be sexist. People tend to be turned off by women who don’t possess stereotypically feminine traits. Men and women alike are turned off by Hillary Clinton, Martha Stewart, Marge Schott etc. because they are strong, independent women who don’t bow to society’s expectations of how women should act. And they pay the price. Chris can lie and he’s an admirable player. Twila does the same thing, but she’s strung from the nearest pillor. Why? Probst kept exposing that point again and again last night. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-12-04/279509/45 "2004-12-13T15:24:32Z")
Yeah, Twila wasn’t so good at the apologizing. “Yup, I’m sorry I lied to ya, bitch.” As I pointed out to my son last night when people kept raking her over the coals, “It’s hard to apologize when you’re not sorry.” I loved Leann’s comment that she wasn’t shooting for an all-women final 6; she would have been happy with final four. So, given that they had 5/6, that was actually a pretty good showing for the alliance, even if two of them were from the bowheaded crowd… ---
**Author:** ![middleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@middleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/middleman)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-12-04/279509/46 "2004-12-13T15:25:49Z")
Spoilers about the next season’s cast. Mild to say the least, but nonetheless… [[http://www.survivorshrine.com/s10/articles/cast\_list.shtml](http://www.survivorshrine.com/s10/articles/cast_list.shtml)](LINK TO CAST INFO) I am STOKED that University of Houston track great Jolanda Jones is allegedly in the cast. As a proud cougar myself, I will cheer for her no matter what! ---
**Author:** ![Chastain86](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Chastain86](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chastain86)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-12-04/279509/47 "2004-12-13T15:34:16Z")
Okay, I lied. I have one more point to make. Everybody lies to get to the end. The people who take it the hardest are typically the people in the 5-4-3 slots, because at that point, any alliances that are still standing are feeding on themselves. Julie was blindsided by Chris. Eliza was blindsided by Chris. They were both very upset about this. You fix this problem by saying, at the final Tribal Council, this exact statement: (ahem) "I apologize for blindsiding you like that. I shouldn’t have promised you one thing, then turned around and voted you out. **But I was scared that if I was straight-up with you, and told you I planned to vote you out, that you’d try to wriggle out of the noose and find a way to vote _me_ out.** "I realize that it’s hard to swallow, but the closer you get to the end, the harder the decisions become. I had to make those terrible decisions for the good of my family, and the fact that if I did not, someone else undoubtedly **would** have. I just couldn’t take that chance, so I deceived you. And I’m sorry it had to work out that way. You deserve much better. "I would like very much to receive your vote tonight, because I respect you very much – if I didn’t, I wouldn’t have been so afraid of your reprisal. I viewed you as a threat, and I’m not proud of that – but I can’t change it, either. “I only hope you can respect that I was true to my word to that point. It’s up to you to decide who played a better game, and whether I am worthy of your respect again.” I mean, come on! How could anybody get down on the whole “I was scared of you” tactic? It’s gold! ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-12-04/279509/48 "2004-12-13T15:40:25Z")
> [@](#): > > Chris was playing both sides (unlike Twila) Exactly. He was PLAYING both sides. To me someone who smiles to my face yet stabs me in the back is more despicable than someone who is openly hostile and stabs me in the back. But that’s just me. > [@](#): > > …(He) was building relationships (unlike Twila) Yes, so he could use these relationships to further himself in the game. He said as much in his behind-the-scenes comments. “I didn’t come here to make friends. I came her to win a million bucks.” Understandable but not very endearing. > [@](#): > > …and he remained pleasant company (very much unlike Twila). And that’s what won him the million bucks. At least Eliza had the balls to come out and admit it. "They’re both rats, but I like Chris better. ---
**Author:** ![Balduran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cc9497/32.png) [@Balduran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balduran)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-12-04/279509/49 "2004-12-13T15:48:42Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > Chris can lie and he’s an admirable player. Twila does the same thing, but she’s strung from the nearest pillor. Why? Well, I won’t argue that sexism doesn’t exist. Women are often held to higher standards than men when it comes to this sort of behaviour. However, there were other factors going on -Chris was charming and pleasant, Twila was disliked (eg. hiding the food). -Twila was seen as betraying a major alliance, Chris was seen more as an outsider, to be disposed of when seen fit. -I think even in the final tribal council the judges didn’t know the extent of Chris’s trickery. They found out when we did by watching the show. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-12-04/279509/50 "2004-12-13T15:53:41Z")
This show brought up some questions I’ve had, and have been too lazy to go looking for the answers. 1. What information do the jury members have outside of Tribal Council? I’m assuming they get to hang out with each other during the day if they want. Do they get to watch tapes of the days preceding before council, or not? 2. I’ve heard that Jeff doesn’t watch much of what’s taped; it’s gotta be way too much to review overnight, and he’s certainly not missing much sleep… 3. Just the general mechanics of the show–do the camera crews get taken off in a boat at the end of their shift, or do they have their own camp off in the trees with fresh water and tents and stuff like that? I have also heard that going to the crew camp is one of the automatic disqualifiers, along with sharing the money or hitting somebody. Anybody have any links to infosites? ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-12-04/279509/51 "2004-12-13T15:58:25Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > Exactly. He was PLAYING both sides. To me someone who smiles to my face yet stabs me in the back is more despicable than someone who is openly hostile and stabs me in the back. But that’s just me. Sorry, but Chris HAD to be playing both sides, and that fact should have been obvious. And the fact that no one suspected him of doing so speaks badly not of Chris, but of the morons who didn’t see it coming. > [@](#): > > Yes, so he could use these relationships to further himself in the game. He said as much in his behind-the-scenes comments. “I didn’t come here to make friends. I came her to win a million bucks.” Understandable but not very endearing. Name one player who joined the cast of Survivor to make friends. One. Or name one survivor who did well (final four) who didn’t try to form relationships at any point. > [@](#): > > And that’s what won him the million bucks. At least Eliza had the balls to come out and admit it. "They’re both rats, but I like Chris better. Balduron nailed it. Chris didn’t burn any major bridges like Twila did. Twila stabbed more people in the back (and twisted the hell out of the knife), and at a time when it wasn’t her neck on the block. Chris did so at times when it was strategically necessary to do so, for himself. In that regard, Twila was an inferior player in the game. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-12-04/279509/52 "2004-12-13T16:47:47Z")
> [@](#): > > Or name one survivor who did well (final four) who didn’t try to form relationships at any point. Richard Hatch. The dude who acted all nutty with the knife and came in #2 to Jenna, I believe. What the hell was his name? ---
**Author:** ![BiblioCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ed8c4c/32.png) [@BiblioCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BiblioCat)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-12-04/279509/53 "2004-12-13T16:51:51Z")
> [@watsonwil](#): > > As for the outcome, am I the only one who ROOTS for the sleaziest sack of crap out there? Getting mad at people for lying and deceiving in Survivor is like getting mad at a poker player for bluffing. I’m not rooting for the sleaziest sack of crap out there, but I do always find it amusing that the last few people voted out are just OUTRAGED that they’ve been booted. The indignation is just a riot to watch. “You lied to me? How dare you! Well, at least I have my integrity!” :rolleyes: 😃 ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-12-04/279509/54 "2004-12-13T16:53:28Z")
> [@](#): > > Chris did so at times when it was strategically necessary to do so, for himself. Untrue. He lied and told both Julie and Eliza that he was in their camp at a time when strategically it would have made for sense for him to just keep his mouth shut or to simply say, “I’m voting with my alliance.” Instead he made the deliberate choice to pretend to side with them, on two separate occasions, and then to jerk the rug out from under them at TC. As Julie said at the last TC, that was unnecessary and unkind. Of course, they both turned around and voted for him anyway. What was his motive for doing this? Was he bored? On a power trip? ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-12-04/279509/55 "2004-12-13T17:07:40Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > Richard Hatch. The dude who acted all nutty with the knife and came in #2 to Jenna, I believe. What the hell was his name? Crazy Matt, from Amazon. He did make stalkerish-creepy relationships with Rob and Butch, though. And it bears pointing out that that was all an act; he figured out early on that he was enough of a physical act that if he pulled an “I, Claudius” and acted like a lunatic they’d figure he was harmless except for, you know, the psycho killer part. That strategy worked for HeiDDi, too, except she chose “air-headed bimbo” rather than “psycho killer.” Because you got to play to your strengths… ---
**Author:** ![gonzoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a6a055/32.png) [@gonzoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzoron)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-12-04/279509/56 "2004-12-13T17:13:41Z")
> [@watsonwil](#): > > As for the outcome, am I the only one who ROOTS for the sleaziest sack of crap out there? Getting mad at people for lying and deceiving in Survivor is like getting mad at a poker player for bluffing. I wouldn’t say I root for the sleaziest. I couldn’t stand Johnny Fairplay, and I was on the cuddly Rupert bandwagon. But I agree that lying is a MAJOR part of the game, and I can’t stand when people don’t recognize that and get all offended. So she “Swore on her son.” Big deal? What does that even mean? Just words. Twila got that. But she didn’t get the fact that not everyone gets it. I wished she won, but Chris played the Jury like a fiddle at the final Council. He apologized where he needed to, he sucked up where he needed to, and he played the “I played the game” card where he needed to. He was almost TOO good at it, since you could see exactly what her was going to say before he said it. It seems to me that the single biggest skill to WIN survivor (not just get to F2) is to figure out who will vote based on “integrity” and who will vote based on “gamesmanship” and make sure you that while you’re scramlbing to the final two that you always show your “integrityface” to the integrity people and your “gameface” to the gamesmanship people. I wasn’t thrilled by this season, but I’ll still be watching Pulau. I hope the big twist is actually something major that changes the game (1 tribe, or 4 tribes, or 2 tribes on one beach), because it is getting a bit stale. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-12-04/279509/57 "2004-12-13T17:36:38Z")
WAG #2 for Pulau: 10 married couples, men on one team, women on the other. ---
**Author:** ![GraceTX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c4cdca/32.png) [@GraceTX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GraceTX)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-12-04/279509/58 "2004-12-13T17:44:24Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Twila BURIED FOOD to keep it away from Eliza, for chrissake! Nope. She buried the food so it would ripen. She wouldn’t tell Eliza where it was, but she didn’t bury it to keep it away from her. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-12-04/279509/59 "2004-12-13T17:50:03Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > Richard Hatch. The dude who acted all nutty with the knife and came in #2 to Jenna, I believe. What the hell was his name? Hogwash. I said “relationships” not “friendships”. The man defined alliance building. Can’t have an alliance without a relationship. And the dude who acted all nutty was Crazy Matt on Amazon, and he had a very strong alliance/_friendship_ with non-Boston Rob. > [@](#): > > Nope. She buried the food so it would ripen. She wouldn’t tell Eliza where it was, but she didn’t bury it to keep it away from her. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![rockle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/73ab20/32.png) [@rockle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rockle)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-12-04/279509/60 "2004-12-13T17:53:48Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > People tend to be turned off by women who don’t possess stereotypically feminine traits. Men and women alike are turned off by Hillary Clinton, Martha Stewart, Marge Schott etc. because they are strong, independent women who don’t bow to society’s expectations of how women should act. Personally, I hate Marge Schott because she’s a racist and bad for baseball. Not so much hate for Hillary or Martha, except I do hate their haircuts. > [@PunditLisa](#): > > Chris can lie and he’s an admirable player. Twila does the same thing, but she’s strung from the nearest pillor. Why? The first thing that comes to mind here is a quote from a song, I think: “Lie to me, but do it with sincerity.” I don’t think gender entered into the equation with this particular jury, so much as tact (for lack of a better word) did. Imagine if Rory were in Twila’s place. Rory and Twila seemed to me to be cut from the same cloth, and if he were in F2 with Chris, the outcome would have been the same. Neither gave a rat’s ass about anyone but themselves. Nothing wrong with that as a general rule, but this is a game about winning friends and influencing people – very particular people. By at least _pretending_ to care whether he hurt anyone’s feelings or not, by making the proper “there-there” noises, Chris just came off as a better option this group. Jeff said last night exactly what Chris did right: he knew how to read these people and then tell them what they wanted to hear. Twila didn’t. She couldn’t “not be Twila.” It makes her an admirable person, but not a terribly good player. That’s why she lost. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-12-04/279509.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-12-04/279509.md?page=4)