# Survivor 12/12/04 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 12, 2004, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-12-04/279509 "2004-12-12T23:23:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-12-04/279509/61 "2004-12-13T17:54:30Z")
Maybe she buried it to keep it away from her so that it would ripen. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-12-04/279509/62 "2004-12-13T18:45:11Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > Incidentally, I laughed like crazy at Jeff’s “hack through the jungle with a machete/parachute into the desert/ride the motorcycle into town” sequence. Honestly, do they really think they’re fooling anyone with that? Were they trying to fool anyone? I thought it was intended to be campy. I thought it was hilarious, too, BTW. I loved how he used the machete to hack at a few fronds strategically placed by the props department. Oo! What a tough guy! > [@watsonwil](#): > > I loved Chad’s line in the reunion about not wanting sympathy and then wanting it when it looked like he was going to get voted out. A funny, warm moment. That was my favorite moment of the whole series. For some reason, it seems to be socially unacceptable for the disabled to say that they deserve “extra credit” for keeping up with the non-disabled, so I admire him so much for admitting those feelings on national TV. I mean, it would have been annoying as hell if he had brought it up or acted on those feelings during the game, but it was very cool that he admitted that the thought crossed his mind. ---
**Author:** ![middleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@middleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/middleman)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-12-04/279509/63 "2004-12-13T19:34:11Z")
> [@rockle](#): > > Personally, I hate Marge Schott because she’s a racist and bad for baseball. Past tense. Margie is dead and gone. Buried like a bannana! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![rockle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/73ab20/32.png) [@rockle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rockle)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-12-04/279509/64 "2004-12-13T20:26:52Z")
> [@watsonwil](#): > > Margie is dead and gone. Ah. That explains why she’s been so quiet, then. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-12-04/279509/65 "2004-12-13T20:36:05Z")
> [@](#): > > Personally, I hate Marge Schott because she’s a racist and bad for baseball. And there are no other racist CEO’s, right? Oh, please. George Steinbrenner and Ted Turner are equally as obnoxious as Marge Schott, yet baseball didn’t make them give up their teams. The old boys didn’t like an outspoken, obnoxious woman, but they have no trouble with outspoken, obnoxious MEN. > [@](#): > > Hogwash. I said “relationships” not “friendships”. The man defined alliance building. Can’t have an alliance without a relationship. Yes, Richard Hatch formed a strong “alliance” with Rudy just as Twila formed a strong “alliance” with both Scout and Chris. What exactly is your point? ---
**Author:** ![Chastain86](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Chastain86](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chastain86)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-12-04/279509/66 "2004-12-13T20:45:48Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > And there are no other racist CEO’s, right? Oh, please. George Steinbrenner and Ted Turner are equally as obnoxious as Marge Schott, yet baseball didn’t make them give up their teams. The old boys didn’t like an outspoken, obnoxious woman, but they have no trouble with outspoken, obnoxious MEN. Are we seriously defending the woman that referred to Reggie Sanders and Chris Sabo in the press as her quote-unquote “millon dollar niggers”? :dubious: This isn’t a male-vs-female thing. This is a racist-vs-nonracist thing. ---
**Author:** ![middleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@middleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/middleman)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-12-04/279509/67 "2004-12-13T20:51:44Z")
Back to the show, I thought this season’s final endurance challenge was excellent. Have they ever had anything like that in prior seasons? (I have only seen Australia, Africa and All-Stars). ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-12-04/279509/68 "2004-12-13T21:03:32Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > What exactly is your point? 😕 Let’s recap: **Munch** : name one survivor who did well (final four) who didn’t try to form relationships at any point. **PunditLisa** : Richard Hatch. **Munch** : Hogwash. I said “relationships” not “friendships”. The man defined alliance building. Can’t have an alliance without a relationship. **PunditLisa** : Yes, Richard Hatch formed a strong “alliance” with Rudy just as Twila formed a strong “alliance” with both Scout and Chris. It doesn’t seem that Hatch quite qualifies under the “didn’t form a relationship” criteria, per your admission above. ---
**Author:** ![CapnPitt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/edb3f5/32.png) [@CapnPitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CapnPitt)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-12-04/279509/69 "2004-12-13T21:05:04Z")
I’m just not getting why everyone thinks Twila’s so admirable now. I mean, just because she couldn’t not be Twila? Rather than make some odious comparison, think of a person you _really_ dislike and think about whether you could vote to give them the million just because they were just being themselves. Frankly, I didn’t like Twila from episode one through the finale. And I’d never have given her the money…which brings me to my point. Twila only made the final two because everyone, to a person, wanted Twila as their opponent in the final two. She couldn’t have beaten ANY contestant from this season in the final two. ---
**Author:** ![CapnPitt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/edb3f5/32.png) [@CapnPitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CapnPitt)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-12-04/279509/70 "2004-12-13T21:06:38Z")
Oh yeah, hated Scout too. Talk about a sanctimonious \*!@#%. ---
**Author:** ![rockle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/73ab20/32.png) [@rockle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rockle)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-12-04/279509/71 "2004-12-13T21:19:45Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > And there are no other racist CEO’s, right? Oh, please. George Steinbrenner and Ted Turner are equally as obnoxious as Marge Schott, yet baseball didn’t make them give up their teams. Overgeneralize much? Obnoxious does not necessarily equal racist, and anyway, I never said there weren’t other racist CEO’s. I told you why I didn’t like Marge Schott, and it had nothing whatever to do with her “unfeminine” behavior. It had more to do with her inhumane behavior. I wouldn’t like ANYONE who said the things she did, male or female. And I am a Red Sox fan, so I know from racists, OK? Yawkey was one of the worst there ever was. He wasn’t made to give up his team, either. But it wasn’t because he was a man. It was because people then were willing to tolerate things that people were not willing to tolerate when Marge Schott ran the Reds. You asked earlier: > [@PunditLisa](#): > > He lied and told both Julie and Eliza that he was in their camp at a time when strategically it would have made for sense for him to just keep his mouth shut or to simply say, “I’m voting with my alliance.” Instead he made the deliberate choice to pretend to side with them, on two separate occasions, and then to jerk the rug out from under them at TC. As Julie said at the last TC, that was unnecessary and unkind. > > Of course, they both turned around and voted for him anyway. > > What was his motive for doing this? Was he bored? On a power trip? No. He was trying to win a million dollars. However you feel about what he did, Eliza and Julie obviously feel differently, because they voted for him. Probably because they know that if they were in Chris’s position, they might have had to do the same thing to win a million dollars. And for all we know – since we only see what the producers and editors choose to show us – they actually did. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-12-04/279509/72 "2004-12-13T21:24:56Z")
> [@CapnPitt](#): > > Twila only made the final two because everyone, to a person, wanted Twila as their opponent in the final two. She couldn’t have beaten ANY contestant from this season in the final two. Bingo. It sure didn’t help that Chris got her all riled up the day of the final vote, asking if she was going to take any crap off of anybody… now THAT was a cool move… ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-12-04/279509/73 "2004-12-13T21:31:38Z")
> [@](#): > > Are we seriously defending the woman that referred to Reggie Sanders and Chris Sabo in the press as her quote-unquote “millon dollar niggers”? I’m not defending her. I’m comparing her to Ted Turner, who has made insulting comments about Catholics, the Pope, Pollacks, Jews and immigrants. I’m putting forth the argument that there are two standards of behavior in society: one for men and one for women. > [@](#): > > It was because people then were willing to tolerate things that people were not willing to tolerate when Marge Schott ran the Reds. Ted Turner is a contemporary of Marge Schott. George Steinbrenner is a contemporary of Marge Schott. ---
**Author:** ![Pashnish\_Ewing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8797f3/32.png) [@Pashnish\_Ewing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pashnish_Ewing)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-12-04/279509/74 "2004-12-13T21:57:07Z")
> [@Chastain86](#): > > Are we seriously defending the woman that referred to Reggie Sanders and Chris Sabo in the press as her quote-unquote “millon dollar niggers”? According to [this](http://www.channelcincinnati.com/sports/2887706/detail.html) report, she was referring to Eric Davis and Dave Parker, not the _very_ white [Chris Sabo](http://www.grandstandsports.com/images/1612.jpg). 🙂 Pash ---
**Author:** ![middleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@middleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/middleman)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-12-04/279509/75 "2004-12-13T22:08:24Z")
What has Steinbrennar ever said or done that has been deemed racist? Just curious. ---
**Author:** ![CapnPitt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/edb3f5/32.png) [@CapnPitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CapnPitt)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-12-04/279509/76 "2004-12-13T22:20:11Z")
I thought this thread was for Survivor 12/12. I’m pretty sure “Subverting the Patriciarchal Paradigm” is somewhere in GD. ---
**Author:** ![Savonarola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Savonarola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Savonarola)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-12-04/279509/77 "2004-12-13T22:30:46Z")
Let me try a short counterfactual exercise with Chris being honest with Julie when they go on their reward challenge. She took him on that reward, after all, to discover how he might vote in upcoming challenges: She knew that her head was on the chopping block. Instead of telling her that she is like a “the little sister that he never had” and that he won’t ever betray her, he tells her that he has built a strong RELATIONSHIP and ALLIANCE with Scout and Twila and that he’s got to be true to that first. It was Scout and Twila who allowed him, after all, to break the stranglehold that Ami seemed to have on the voting. With such an honest response, Chris and Julie would have returned to camp. When Eliza won the subsequent IC, Julie would have known that if she didn’t start working fast, her ass would be gone. In such a situation, were I Julie, I would go to Twila, whom I had spent days with after the team switch trying to stay alive, and tell her that Chris was playing both sides. I would tell Twila that Chris had promised me that he would vote for her (Twila), but that I was unsure of his honesty. We three (Julie, Twila and Scout), therefore, should stick with our original plan and vote Chris out, Eliza being immune. While this would be a lie, it would be the only way for me (Julie), to stay alive and not be eliminated. There are other scenarios that might have played out, but this is the one I feel would have been most likely considering the strength of the Scout-Twila alliance. I don’t know whether they would have gone along such a plan proposed by Julie, but it wouldn’t surprise me if they did. As a result, for his honesty, Chris might have been rewarded with a booting from the tribe. By lying to Julie, he was able to prevent her from approaching Twila and Scout with an alternative voting strategy that might have cost him the game. To me that’s good gamesmanship, not cheating. I’m interested in your thoughts. ---
**Author:** ![Chastain86](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Chastain86](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chastain86)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-12-04/279509/78 "2004-12-13T22:42:26Z")
> [@Pashnish Ewing](#): > > According to [this](http://www.channelcincinnati.com/sports/2887706/detail.html) report, she was referring to Eric Davis and Dave Parker, not the _very_ white [Chris Sabo](http://www.grandstandsports.com/images/1612.jpg). 🙂 > > Pash DAMN! :smack: I knew that. Forgive me, I have a terminal case of the stupids today. ---
**Author:** ![middleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@middleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/middleman)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-12-04/279509/79 "2004-12-13T22:49:16Z")
\*\*Savonarola \*\* , I agree. Your post also reminded me of a dishonesty of Julie. When the tribes switched prior to the merge, Julie stayed in the game (and ultimately doomed Sarge et. al.) by telling Twila that Sarge had offered her a deal as well as Twila. Julie’s move kept her alive and shaped the game as much as any maneuver short of Twila’s getting Chris to pull Eliza into the Old Woman alliance. For Julie to say she was an innocent is not true. She flat out LIED to Twila. And I don’t blame her one bit. ---
**Author:** ![middleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@middleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/middleman)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-12-04/279509/80 "2004-12-13T22:51:08Z")
Oh, and I was disappointed that Probst didn’t ask the standard reunion question of whether anyone would have voted differently had Chris taken Scout instead of Twila. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-12-04/279509.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-12-04/279509.md?page=5)