# Survivor 12/18 The Finale **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 19, 2002, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-18-the-finale/143777 "2002-12-19T12:47:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![BiblioCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ed8c4c/32.png) [@BiblioCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BiblioCat)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2002, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-18-the-finale/143777/81 "2002-12-24T03:21:19Z")
I like that idea, **Roadfood**. You could even make it better by having everyone attend the Tribal Councils for the vote (but only the team that loses votes), and then rearrange the tribes. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2002, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-18-the-finale/143777/82 "2002-12-24T04:45:40Z")
[Beat ya to it, Roadfood](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=2594728#post2594728). 😉 ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2002, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-18-the-finale/143777/83 "2002-12-24T04:59:45Z")
Upon considering it further, I do have to wonder how this would play on TV as well. I think it might be too hard for viewers to keep track of who is who, and where they are. If viewers can’t keep up, they will tune out. So while it might be good for the _game_ of Survivor, it might not be so great for the television show. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2002, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-18-the-finale/143777/84 "2002-12-25T18:53:27Z")
elf6c said: > [@](#): > > I will keep an eye on your site. OK, the reunion and finale recaps are _finally_ posted. Now I just have to work on my article describing the whole trip out there. Oh, and look for my interview with Helen tomorrow (Thursday) and with several others coming up. Helen had some interesting things to say about Jan and strategy and about the Clay/racism thing, among other stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Roadfood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9fc348/32.png) [@Roadfood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roadfood)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-18-the-finale/143777/85 "2002-12-30T18:37:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*[Beat ya to it, Roadfood](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=2594728#post2594728). 😉 \*\* You sure did. You even included my other idea, of showing it “live” every three days. Now how do we get Burnett to listen to us? On the other hand, You didn’t get it quite right that flying under the radar is always the winning strategy. Brian’s win this time show’s once again that there are two winning strategies: Under the radar, or Hatch-backstabbing. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-18-the-finale/143777/86 "2002-12-30T19:41:11Z")
Oh, I don’t know about that. Brian certainly wasn’t an under the radar player in the same way that Tina or Vecepia were. Even Ethan went UTR to a large extent–though he was perceived as a physical/immunity threat, he left others (Lex and Tom, primarily) to be the leaders of the alliance. Being a leader means being a target, and none of those three winners were ever leaders–that’s what I mean by under the radar. Brian certainly didn’t just keep his head down and try to ride somebody else’s coattails to the finals. He made the (multiple) deals that got him to where he wanted to be, and he was pretty much took control of his own destiny. On the other hand, he never made himself a target by becoming the visible leader of an alliance, which is what killed John and the Gang of Four in Marquesas. On the whole, Brian played a great combination of controlling his own destiny _and_ avoiding the death warrant of overtly leading a group of voters. Brian wasn’t flying under the radar–he just came equipped with stealth technology! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2002, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-18-the-finale/143777/87 "2002-12-31T00:58:49Z")
I think the problem is in defining “under the radar.” I mean, was Tina under the radar? I dunno. To us, the viewers, she was. But in the Outback she was controlling an alliance and booting off people she’d made promises to (remember Mad Dog?). I don’t know that Vee was so much “under the radar” either. In fact, the reason she was brought along by Neleh was that Neleh felt the jury would like Vee less. She just didn’t count on three of the the Rotu Four being vindictive bastards. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2002, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-18-the-finale/143777/88 "2002-12-31T02:45:10Z")
Actually, I bet she did count on the Gang of Four being vindictive bastards. They would have just as easily (and more resoundingly) voted for Kathy, I’m sure. Vecepia hadn’t actually done a whole lot to earn anybody’s special ire, except for Kathy (and anyone who watched that betrayal at TC). She did, however, get thoroughly tarred by her alliance with Sean, the most unlikeable person to ever appear on any season of Survivor. Vee never betrayed the Gang of Four, but Paschal and Neleh certainly had. And while I’ve heard the theory before that Tina formed and/or held together the Tina-Colby-Keith alliance, plus their hangers-on, I never saw a thing to indicate that there was much to that. Sound more like post-game “Oh, she totally deserved it” rationalization. Had Colby not been a good ol’ boy from small town Texas, raised to be polite an’ respect wimmin an’ his elders, she’d have been dropped in no time flat at F3. Heck, if Colby had been in Brian’s shoes in Thailand, he’d have taken _Jan_ to the final jury vote, and people would be talking about how it was Jan who chose those players and how she really held everyone together, so “she totally deserved it.” ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2002, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-18-the-finale/143777/89 "2002-12-31T06:03:47Z")
At least Brian broke the Curse of Winning the Last Immunity. Series 1 - Kelly wins the last immunity challenge and chooses Richard as her partner in the final two. Richard wins the vote. Series 2 - Colby wins the last immunity challenge and chooses Tina as his partner in the final two. Tina wins the vote. Series 3 - Kim wins the last immunity challenge and chooses Ethan as her partner in the final two. Ethan wins the vote. Series 4 - Neleh wins the last immunity challenge and chooses Vecepia as her partner in the final two. Vecepia wins the vote. David B, maybe you have should included the following rule of advice on your website: “If you make it to the final three endurance challenge and it looks like you might win it - take a dive.” ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2002, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-18-the-finale/143777/90 "2002-12-31T14:42:41Z")
**minty green** said: > [@](#): > > Actually, I bet she did count on the Gang of Four being vindictive bastards. They would have just as easily (and more resoundingly) voted for Kathy, I’m sure. Oh, definitely. But that doesn’t mean Neleh expected them to be vindictive. Quite the opposite. She expected them to recognize that she had played the game better than Vee, whom nobody really appeared to like anyway. > [@](#): > > Vee never betrayed the Gang of Four, but Paschal and Neleh certainly had. You just argued against your own statement. 🙂 Vee had never “betrayed” them (I would argue that Neleh hadn’t either) because she had never been aligned with them and had never been particularly liked by them. > [@](#): > > And while I’ve heard the theory before that Tina formed and/or held together the Tina-Colby-Keith alliance, plus their hangers-on, I never saw a thing to indicate that there was much to that. I don’t see why not. She allied herself with Keith. She allied herself with Colby, prying him away from the other alliance (OK, Jerri helped by giving him a push). There is no way Colby and Keith would have been allies without Tina there – in fact, Colby’s choice to bring Tina into the finals rather than giving Keith $100,000 shows this quite well. > [@](#): > > Had Colby not been a good ol’ boy from small town Texas, raised to be polite an’ respect wimmin an’ his elders, she’d have been dropped in no time flat at F3. Yes, but he was. And she knew how to use that. I was talking to several members of the Acme Brain Trust (a spoiler site) at the finale. They mentioned that they picked Tina to win in part because they had heard from people who knew her that she would run over her own grandmother to pick up a dollar. Thus, it was no surprise to them when she stabbed Mad Dog in the back, nor when she manipulated the others without them even realizing they were being manipulated. Mind you, the final reason for her winning still comes down to Colby’s stupidity (combined with Mike falling into the fire), but she played a large part in guiding him. > [@](#): > > Heck, if Colby had been in Brian’s shoes in Thailand, he’d have taken Jan to the final jury vote I don’t think so. Jan was nice, but she wasn’t able to form relationships the way Tina was. **Little Nemo** said: > [@](#): > > David B, maybe you have should included the following rule of advice on your website: “If you make it to the final three endurance challenge and it looks like you might win it - take a dive.” But that isn’t always true. For example, if Brian had taken a dive here, he wouldn’t necessarily have won. Sure, Clay would have taken him along, but Jan might have been smart enough to take Clay instead of him. And as for the others, Rich and Vee were the only ones who really _should_ have taken a dive (as they did). Colby was right to win, because I think if either Tina or Keith had won, they’d have taken the other. His error was in the decision of who to bring with him. Kim was right to win because Ethan and Lex might have held true to their alliance if they’d won – and she was doomed no matter who she brought with. Neleh was right to win because of the deal between Vee and Kathy. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2002, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-18-the-finale/143777/91 "2002-12-31T14:44:52Z")
Incidentally, though, I am adding a couple new things to my article on what they should have learned: Think about the jury **before** you get down to the final two (as Clay did in setting up Penny). Don’t just **ask** to do work – do it! If you ask and they tell you no, it will still look like you didn’t do anything and it can be used against you later. And I’ll have to add in something about Brian’s use of the one-on-one alliances as well. Any other suggestions of things we learned from this one? (Just don’t get offended if I don’t use 'em. 🙂 ) ---
**Author:** ![Glory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7cd45c/32.png) [@Glory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glory)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2002, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-18-the-finale/143777/92 "2002-12-31T16:48:40Z")
I’m sorry, I just looked through this thread and I don’t see it, can I get a link to your site? ---
**Author:** ![NotWithoutRage](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NotWithoutRage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotWithoutRage)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2002, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-18-the-finale/143777/93 "2002-12-31T17:13:36Z")
**David B’s** website is at [Reality News Online](http://www.realitynewsonline.com) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2002, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-18-the-finale/143777/94 "2002-12-31T17:31:32Z")
_Think about the jury before you get down to the final two (as Clay did in setting up Penny)._ My favorite player from the second year was Big Tom, who was a master of this. You’ll notice that he was always careful to stay friendly and lay on the charm with the people who he was planning to vote against. In my opinion, he was the best player on that year’s show until he was knocked off by a single piece of bad luck. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2003, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-18-the-finale/143777/95 "2003-01-01T14:32:51Z")
Little Nemo said: > [@](#): > > My favorite player from the second year was Big Tom, who was a master of this. You’ll notice that he was always careful to stay friendly and lay on the charm with the people who he was planning to vote against. In my opinion, he was the best player on that year’s show until he was knocked off by a single piece of bad luck. Minor correction: Third season (Africa). Sorry. 🙂 I’m not so sure this was planning so much as it was just Big Tom being Big Tom. I mean, how can you not like Big Tom? He’s just a big ol’ friendly guy. This does bring up an interesting question, though. Have others tried to work a similar strategy before? I can’t recall it happening, but it may simply be that those people never made it to the final two, so it never made a difference. One interesting point about this series – the most significant part of Clay’s wooing Penny’s vote was never shown on the air. It was only available to watch on the CBS website! It showed where Clay had told Penny that he would vote for Jake and underline his vote so she would know for certain it was him. I really have to wonder why they didn’t air that bit… ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2003, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-18-the-finale/143777/96 "2003-01-01T20:55:39Z")
My mistake on the year. As I’ve said before, I missed the first season so I miscounted from memory. > [@](#): > > I’m not so sure this was planning so much as it was just Big Tom being Big Tom. I mean, how can you not like Big Tom? He’s just a big ol’ friendly guy. It’s impossible to be sure about what the players are thinking, especially given the producers’ manipulation. But I did say at the time that I thought Tom was playing to the jury. Here, for what it’s worth, is my list of each season’s best players: Rich, Mike, Tom, Kathey, and Brian. Only two of whom got the million. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2003, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-18-the-finale/143777/97 "2003-01-01T23:30:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by David B \* > You just argued against your own statement. 🙂 Nah, I was trying to make the point that _because_ Neleh knew she’d pissed off the Gang of Four, she had to find somebody else they’d dislike enough to vote against. Between Vecepia and Kathy, that’s an easy call, since Vee was personally disliked, and Neleh had to hope that was enough to overcome her betrayal. If she’d played it right to the jury, it might have even worked. And that leads me to my suggestion for the the Survivor advice article. One thing that has become very clear to me is that jury arguments are important, so you’d better be ready to tell them why to vote for you. All but one of the series have been decided by a single vote, and a significant number of jurors have said their voted were either decided or changed during the final TC. So if you manage to get that far, be ready to pitch your version of why they should vote for you, even the ones you stabbed in the back. In reality, most of the people who’ve made it to the final vote come off sounding like they’d never given a thought to what they were going to tell the jury. I thought Brian came pretty close to blowing it this time, then Clay’s idiotic refusal to answer Helen actually topped it. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2003, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-18-the-finale/143777/98 "2003-01-01T23:34:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by David B \* > One interesting point about this series – the most significant part of Clay’s wooing Penny’s vote was never shown on the air. It was only available to watch on the CBS website! It showed where Clay had told Penny that he would vote for Jake and underline his vote so she would know for certain it was him. I really have to wonder why they didn’t air that bit… Easy–it would have given away the vote before TC. For some stupid reason, MB seems would rather try to hold onto whatever tiny surprise he can for each episode’s final vote than show the plotting and scheming that takes place to determine what that vote will be. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-18-the-finale/143777/99 "2003-01-02T13:24:18Z")
**minty green** said: > [@](#): > > I was trying to make the point that because Neleh knew she’d pissed off the Gang of Four But I honestly don’t think she knew. She seemed very surprised by them being so mad at her. (For that matter, so was I.) Part of that, I believe, may have been that the previous two shows didn’t have such vindictive losers in it, so she might have thought that she’d just beaten them and that would be that. > [@](#): > > And that leads me to my suggestion for the the Survivor advice article. One thing that has become very clear to me is that jury arguments are important, so you’d better be ready to tell them why to vote for you. A good point! I have written it down for possible inclusion. Thanks! > [@](#): > > In reality, most of the people who’ve made it to the final vote come off sounding like they’d never given a thought to what they were going to tell the jury. I think there are a couple things at work here. First, they might not have. Second, I think a number of them don’t really know what’s going to be said to them until that last minute. Third, remember that they have been going on almost no food for almost 40 days – at some point your bodily and brain functions just don’t work right anymore. [quote] I thought Brian came pretty close to blowing it this time, He did. Helen told me in an interview that if he had not apologized to her, she would have given her vote to Clay out of spite – and he didn’t apologize to her 'til the very end of his answer. > [@](#): > > then Clay’s idiotic refusal to answer Helen actually topped it. Yup. He had no way of knowing that Helen had made up her mind when Brian finally apologized. And what if Brian hadn’t apologized? Clay would have still answered the same way, I’m sure. Regarding Clay setting up Penny and that only being available on the web: > [@](#): > > it would have given away the vote before TC. Ah, but Burnett should have _wanted_ to give that vote away. Everybody went into it thinking Brian was clearly the winner. But if people had known there were more possible votes for Clay, it might have made them tune in to see the close vote. > [@](#): > > For some stupid reason, MB seems would rather try to hold onto whatever tiny surprise he can for each episode’s final vote than show the plotting and scheming that takes place to determine what that vote will be. But then why show it at all, even on the website? I would view the website as a location for additional footage to support what we’ve seen or amusing footage that really has little to do with the actual “plotline.” Why put such an important point there? That’s what I don’t get. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-18-the-finale/143777/100 "2003-01-02T19:54:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by David B \* > Regarding Clay setting up Penny and that only being available on the web: > > Ah, but Burnett should have _wanted_ to give that vote away. Everybody went into it thinking Brian was clearly the winner. But if people had known there were more possible votes for Clay, it might have made them tune in to see the close vote. Yep, that would have been useful. If they’d had Clay talking about it in a confessional after Penny’s boot, they really could have played it up. Of course, MB also had to keep up the fiction that any of the F4 players might be the winner for the last episode. > [@](#): > > But then why show it at all, even on the website? I would view the website as a location for additional footage to support what we’ve seen or amusing footage that really has little to do with the actual “plotline.” Why put such an important point there? That’s what I don’t get. Like I said, he couldn’t put it on that night’s show because it would spoil Clay’s vote for the TC. MB does _not_ like to give us a player’s vote during an episode, even when it’s bloody obvious who they’re voting for. It’s always “This is a really hard decision, I haven’t decided between my mortal enemy and my secret alliance mate” or “I’d rather vote for Bobby than Cindy.” (The discussions between the women trying to choose whether to vote off Ted or Clay after Ghandia’s blow-up are a great example of the latter.) It’s like there’s some sort of editing rule where you can’t include an unambiguos statement of who a person is voting for. Since the Penny-Clay thing _was_ an important point, they did want to include it, but only after the TC vote was taken. It’s kind of a dead issue for the next show, however, since the story of the next show is all about who will get the boot tonight. Therefore, it ended up on the web site instead as something extra for those of us who pay attention to more than the episode itself. The editing principle seems to be that you tell each episode’s story individually, and don’t try to look either forwards or back (at least until the inevitable fallen comrades stuff of the final episode). BTW, thanks for the kind words about my jury speech suggestion. If you use it, you could just want to work it into your own idea about working the jury during the game. Played right, the jury speeches should work off of whatever the player did to earn the jurors’ votes. Clay had that down perfectly with Penny, the one person whose vote we know he lobbied for. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-18-the-finale/143777.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-12-18-the-finale/143777.md?page=6)