# Survivor Finale, 12/20 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 21, 2009, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-finale-12-20/522013 "2009-12-21T01:08:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-finale-12-20/522013/141 "2009-12-23T03:10:02Z")
> [@notfrommensa](#): > > The other survivors were in the shelter sleeping. I have no doubt that was a typical morning in camp. Russell was not one to be lying around camp doing nothing. he was out doing something, looking for food, looking for immunity idols. > > I don’t think Russell spent as much time sleeping in the shelter, catching rays at the beach and generally doing nothing. he was pro-active rather than reactive.. But the others were doing work that benefited the TEAM, which Russell did not do any of. All his “work” benefited only himself. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-finale-12-20/522013/142 "2009-12-23T07:08:45Z")
Natalie didn’t win a thing. She inherited a million. The jury was all about Russell. I’m sure “they’re rich and I"m unemployed” swung it her way and away from Mick. But it was still almost entirely about Russell. One thing that stood out to me this season was not just how much Russell had studied the game play, but also how well he understood editing. He’s expert at getting face time and giving the editors more than they need to edit him several different ways. Very smart guy. As a contestant, he’s money in the bank for the producers, and he’s clearly the winner in that regard. Someone mentioned his armpits. Can’t say I ever noticed that, but I did notice his whole body was shaved at the start of the season, and he got furrier all over towards the end. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-finale-12-20/522013/143 "2009-12-23T14:27:28Z")
> [@notfrommensa](#): > > Re: Russell finding the Hidden Immunity Idols > > I think Sunday’s nights episode implicitly showed clearly why Russell was able to find HIIs while the others did not. The morning after Shambo was voted out, Russell was “out and about.” The other survivors were in the shelter sleeping. I have no doubt that was a typical morning in camp. Russell was not one to be lying around camp doing nothing. he was out doing something, looking for food, looking for immunity idols. > > I don’t think Russell spent as much time sleeping in the shelter, catching rays at the beach and generally doing nothing. he was pro-active rather than reactive. On the recap show on Thanksgiving, they had a scene where Russell explained that if he finds any food, he eats it himself. He had found a patch of some kind of fruit, and even said that if anyone else found that food he’d vote them out. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-finale-12-20/522013/144 "2009-12-23T14:33:31Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > On the recap show on Thanksgiving, they had a scene where Russell explained that if he finds any food, he eats it himself. He had found a patch of some kind of fruit, and even said that if anyone else found that food he’d vote them out. But then they also showed several other individuals and groups finding food and saying they weren’t going to share it with the rest of the team. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-finale-12-20/522013/145 "2009-12-23T14:37:18Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > But then they also showed several other individuals and groups finding food and saying they weren’t going to share it with the rest of the team. True, all I’m saying is that Russell did nothing to benefit his tribe. Everything was just for himself. And at least some of the others said something like “We’ll eat some of this now, and bring the rest back to the tribe.” ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-finale-12-20/522013/146 "2009-12-23T22:16:55Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > But then they also showed several other individuals and groups finding food and saying they weren’t going to share it with the rest of the team. Natalie shared her mouse. Silly, simple thing but these kinds of things resonate with people. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2009, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-finale-12-20/522013/147 "2009-12-24T02:17:07Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The object of the game is to outplay, etc. the others. The object of the game is to win the million dollars (get the jury vote). A=B, C=B, A=C. That’s a non-equivalence and you know it. The object of the game is to win the million dollars. Period. There is one part you somewhat control and then there is a part at the end which is out of your hands, because it is up to the jury and whatever capricious reason it uses to select the winner. Consider the following hypothetical scenarios: [ul] [li]The jury is composed of only men and they vote for the pretty girl instead of the ugly guy, even thought the pretty girl said nothing and did nothing the whole season.[/li][li]The jury votes for the poor guy instead of the rich guy, because they think the poor guy needs it more IRL, even thought the poor guy said nothing and did nothing the whole season.[/li][li]The jury agrees to flip a coin and they all vote based on that coin flip.[/li][li]The jury says “screw this game, we don’t care who wins, so let’s piss off the producers and viewers and vote for the _least_ deserving person in the final 2”, and goes ahead and does just that.[/li][/ul] Can you honestly say that in the above cases the person who got the jury’s vote “outplayed” the other person? (I guess you could, but not for any meaningful meaning of the word “outplayed”) ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2009, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-finale-12-20/522013/148 "2009-12-24T02:37:48Z")
The idea that Russell “should” have won, it seems to me, is roughly equivalent to the idea that a baseball game should we won by the team with the most home runs, rather than the team with the most runs, or that a football game should go to the team with the most yards. Russell put up a lot of yards through the air, figuratively speaking, but he had a couple of key turnovers and he didn’t play any defense at _all_. He played the obvious half of the game reasonably well, even extremely well, and he was certainly entertaining. But the _other_ half of the game he played terribly, and he deservedly lost because of it. I mean, Brian Heidik is probably an actual sociopath, but when it came down to it, he played the social game in lots of ways - he convinced some people that he was their friend, and smartly seated himself next to a really loud, odious troll, so that even the people who didn’t like Brian couldn’t really bring themselves to vote for the troll, and so Brian won. Comparing Russell to Rich Hatch is just a terrible comparison. Rich Hatch played the game - the _entire_ game, not the just the obvious and camera-friendly flip-flopping part of it - as well as anyone ever did. He’s remembered as an untrustworthy snake, but in the end he stuck to the people he said he would stick to as closely as he could. He smartly gave up the final immunity challenge so that he wouldn’t have to betray either of the potential jury members against whom he was pitted. He convinced people to vote for him. Earl Cole absolutely _dominated_ his season, basically playing an entire season without ever being in real danger and setting himself up as likable, trusted, and strongly preferred personally to either of the two people he sat against. And so on. The really great players of _Survivor_ have influenced the outcome such that they were propelled to the final two/final three, while making sure that the jury members would be disposed to vote for them. They read their competition, figured out what it would take to earn each vote, and made it happen. Russell didn’t. So he, deservedly, did not win. ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2009, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-finale-12-20/522013/149 "2009-12-24T02:40:00Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > That’s a non-equivalence and you know it. > > The object of the game is to win the million dollars. Period. There is one part you somewhat control and then there is a part at the end which is out of your hands, because it is up to the jury and whatever capricious reason it uses to select the winner. But it ISN’T out of your hands. Unlike your hypotheticals, the juries in _Survivor_ vote for reasons, not via coin flip. They can be influenced. You can figure out what makes each person tick and tailor your own behavior to earn each vote. Or you can just be a douche to everyone, and expect them to bow to your awesomeness, which is just stupid and bad play. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2009, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-finale-12-20/522013/150 "2009-12-24T02:46:53Z")
That’s what I think Brett was trying to get across in his weirdo “brodate” question to Mick. Neither Mick nor Russell ever bothered to try and connect with any of the Galu jury members outside of maybe Shambo, so of course they’re all going to vote for Natalie. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2009, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-finale-12-20/522013/151 "2009-12-24T02:51:31Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > That’s what I think Brett was trying to get across in his weirdo “brodate” question to Mick. Neither Mick nor Russell ever bothered to try and connect with any of the Galu jury members outside of maybe Shambo, so of course they’re all going to vote for Natalie. Yes, basically, he was asking Mick if, at any time in the two weeks or so that they lived in close proximity on the merge beach, Mick actually tried to learn anything about Brett at all. “If we were to spend time together, what would we do? What do I like to do? Where do I like to go?” The kind of things that you find out about people just by talking to them. Two weeks, with nothing to really do except contractually-obligated challenges? I can see Brett’s point, as weirdly as he phrased it. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2009, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-finale-12-20/522013/152 "2009-12-24T03:12:45Z")
Duplicate…disregard… ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2009, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-finale-12-20/522013/153 "2009-12-24T04:01:46Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#): > > But it ISN’T out of your hands. I agree that in most cases the jury on Survivor does have reasons related to gameplay (strategic and/or social), so in most cases we can make an argument as to why they voted one way vs another. It’s just that, since there are no rules telling the jury how to vote, they _could_ vote capriciously (based on looks, riches IRL, coin flips, etc) and unrelated to gameplay, so _just based on the fact that someone got more jury votes_ we cannot conclude that they had the better gameplay (strategic and/or social). We can dig deeper and try to figure out why they voted a certain way (as in the case of Russell and Natalie, where Russell is widely acknowledged to have screwed up by being a massive asshole), but we can’t say, as some have said in this thread, that simply by getting more votes, by definition, one person outplayed another. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2009, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-finale-12-20/522013/154 "2009-12-24T04:03:50Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > That’s what I think Brett was trying to get across in his weirdo “brodate” question to Mick. Neither Mick nor Russell ever bothered to try and connect with any of the Galu jury members outside of maybe Shambo, so of course they’re all going to vote for Natalie. I suspect you are right. It would be interesting to see some interviews with the jury members (other than the top 4 linked to above) to see if this is really the reason they voted this way. ---
**Author:** ![notfrommensa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f14d63/32.png) [@notfrommensa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/notfrommensa)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2009, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-finale-12-20/522013/155 "2009-12-24T04:15:48Z")
This [post-survivor article](http://blog.zap2it.com/frominsidethebox/2009/12/survivor-samoas-brett-clouser-it-was-a-pretty-easy-decision.html) says: > [@](#): > > He (Brett) goes on to say that once he lost that final immunity challenge, he knew he was headed home so he sat down with Natalie to work on her strategy in front of the jury. If anybody knew how to sway the former Galu members, it was Brett. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2009, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-finale-12-20/522013/156 "2009-12-24T04:43:24Z")
> [@notfrommensa](#): > > This [post-survivor article](http://blog.zap2it.com/frominsidethebox/2009/12/survivor-samoas-brett-clouser-it-was-a-pretty-easy-decision.html) says: He also says > [@](#): > > Going into that Tribal Council, I had no idea who I was going to vote for So, if Brett, who was so close to Natalie was not 100% for Natalie going into the final TC, then Natalie was not the “obvious choice” for the Galu jury members that many in this thread have made her out to be. I’m curious what Laura, Dave, Eric, etc have to say about their votes. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2009, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-finale-12-20/522013/157 "2009-12-24T07:31:28Z")
_sigh_ You’re clearly right, **Polerius**. It’s so obvious that Russell was totally robbed in the most unjust manner conceivable, and that Natalie is the most undeserving winner of any reality show ever made. It couldn’t possibly be that Brett is simply a nice guy who wanted to keep an open mind. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2009, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-finale-12-20/522013/158 "2009-12-24T07:47:14Z")
So hypothetical: When Jai’son (gotta put in the glottal stop) asked them about their past, if Russell says, “I’m rich so it’s not about the money. It’s all about winning this game. If I win the whole million goes to charity.” Does he win? ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Barchetta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/da6949/32.png) [@Red\_Barchetta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Barchetta)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2009, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-finale-12-20/522013/159 "2009-12-24T10:07:28Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > So hypothetical: > When Jai’son (gotta put in the glottal stop) asked them about their past, if Russell says, “I’m rich so it’s not about the money. It’s all about winning this game. If I win the whole million goes to charity.” > > Does he win? There is nothing Russel could have said that would have let him when the game at that point. The jury was already decided. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2009, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-finale-12-20/522013/160 "2009-12-24T18:09:41Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > So hypothetical: > When Jai’son (gotta put in the glottal stop) asked them about their past, if Russell says, “I’m rich so it’s not about the money. It’s all about winning this game. If I win the whole million goes to charity.” > > Does he win? Hard to say, but do you think anyone who voted against him would have believed him? I wouldn’t. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-finale-12-20/522013.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/survivor-finale-12-20/522013.md?page=9)