# Susan, Queen of Narnia, nylon-clad Floosie of post war Britain **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 27, 2010, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/susan-queen-of-narnia-nylon-clad-floosie-of-post-war-britain/534023 "2010-03-27T15:58:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/susan-queen-of-narnia-nylon-clad-floosie-of-post-war-britain/534023/41 "2010-03-29T14:46:12Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > But is Susan truly shallow? She didn’t strike me as shallow throughout the previous books–she was loving and giving, but also smart and courageous with her bow. IMO, Lewis betrayed her character by choosing her. I don’t really see why one “had” to be left behind at all. And why not Peter? Edmund and Lucy I can understand, but why not Peter? > > Susan struck me as a normal young woman. I think Lewis struggled with some sexual issues (alluded to in his bio). Perhaps he was afraid or intimidated by adult women (at least prior to his marriage). Just a thought. Lewis did have a few issues with women. He had no sisters & his mother died young; then, of course, he was sent to a succession of boys-only schools. The _possible_ affair with the live-in, much older mother of a dead friend is a bit outside the “normal” range, too. His story, [The Shoddy Lands](http://www.ele.uri.edu/faculty/vetter/Other-stuff/The-Shoddy-Lands.pdf), demonstrates a certain dismay at what he considered “the female mind.” I read the Narnia tales a bit late in life to appreciate them. I loved his Space Trilogy in high school but don’t know how it will hold up to re-reading. Still love _Till We Have Faces_, though. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/susan-queen-of-narnia-nylon-clad-floosie-of-post-war-britain/534023/42 "2010-03-29T15:52:24Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > What’s the point? That, even given all the opportunity in the world, including directly seeing magic and even God himself, some people will just choose not to believe. I agree that that’s what Lewis was getting at . . . and that’s why the bit with Susan is absolutely the worst part of the series for me. Because the thing is, _nobody_ rejects Christianity because they’ve seen obvious miracles and just aren’t willing to believe it. They reject it because they _haven’t_ seen such proof. You better believe that if my Jewish grandpa rose from the dead and came knocking on my door saying “Hey Tim, guess what? Turns out I was wrong, it’s Jesus all the way” that I would convert to Christianity right then and there. But that isn’t happening. And honestly, it’s kind of insulting to non-believers to act like we’re just so arrogant that we’re willing to deny something that’s patently obvious. I don’t mean to threadshit, this whole business with Susan and the message behind it just really makes me see red. Sorry. Rant over. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/susan-queen-of-narnia-nylon-clad-floosie-of-post-war-britain/534023/43 "2010-03-29T15:59:45Z")
> [@Not\_A\_Tame\_Lion](#): > > I find this to be exceptionally perceptive, even perhaps the core explanation for why Susan lapsed. Yes, she had known that reality–it had been a tangible thing to her, not just some pipe dream. Had it been just a fantasy, perhaps that life would not have had such a hold on her. But the visceral reality of being that desired queen was more than she could ignore, something she simply _had_ to carry forward into her life in this world. I guess it’s sort of like, you can’t be an alcoholic if you’ve never had a drink. Susan had drunk deeply of her particular addiction. Its hold on her imagination was too great for her not to try to recapture it, even if it was just some pale shadowland version of her former life. That’s about the line I took in the story what I wrote. A mysterious stranger visits “an old woman” in a rest home and, while carrying out a plumbing job in her room, gets her to tell the story of her life. It all ties in with her trip to America and how exciting she found it, and how she decided the nearest thing to being a Narnian Queen she would ever experience again was to network herself into becoming a Hollywood starlet. Hence pursuing the party circuit with all her might, though she never managed to actually get anywhere before her good looks burned out. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/susan-queen-of-narnia-nylon-clad-floosie-of-post-war-britain/534023/44 "2010-03-29T16:08:18Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > I agree that that’s what Lewis was getting at . . . and that’s why the bit with Susan is absolutely the worst part of the series for me. Because the thing is, _nobody_ rejects Christianity because they’ve seen obvious miracles and just aren’t willing to believe it. I beg to differ. I know people who have had what they themselves still regard as supernatural/paranormal/miraculous experiences in the Christian faith who have left the faith because they could/would not surrender other beliefs/behaviors which they saw in conflict with the faith. They themselves will admit they experienced healings & casting out spirits in Jesus’ Name, but they will not now accept Jesus as Lord & Savior. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/susan-queen-of-narnia-nylon-clad-floosie-of-post-war-britain/534023/45 "2010-03-29T16:22:58Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > I beg to differ. I know people who have had what they themselves still regard as supernatural/paranormal/miraculous experiences in the Christian faith who have left the faith because they could/would not surrender other beliefs/behaviors which they saw in conflict with the faith. They themselves will admit they experienced healings & casting out spirits in Jesus’ Name, but they will not now accept Jesus as Lord & Savior. Seriously? They’ll say “Jesus healed me, but I don’t really believe in Jesus?” How the heck do they reconcile that? I guess I could see if someone had some sort of polytheistic faith where they thought “Sure, Jesus has supernatural powers, but I still think Zeus is more worthy of worship.” Otherwise, that doesn’t make sense to me . . . but it wouldn’t be the first time I’ve underestimated how illogical people can be. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/susan-queen-of-narnia-nylon-clad-floosie-of-post-war-britain/534023/46 "2010-03-29T16:27:37Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > Seriously? They’ll say “Jesus healed me, but I don’t really believe in Jesus?” How the heck do they reconcile that? > > I guess I could see if someone had some sort of polytheistic faith where they thought “Sure, Jesus has supernatural powers, but I still think Zeus is more worthy of worship.” Otherwise, that doesn’t make sense to me . . . but it wouldn’t be the first time I’ve underestimated how illogical people can be. Technically, they would be more likely to say they were healed after praying to Jesus, not that Jesus healed them. It gets very touchy when I probe further, so the closest I can figure is that they believe that they tapped into a force that could heal & banish harassing entities but that it would have worked no matter what they put their faith in at the time. Then again, they may well believe that Jesus is one power among others. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/susan-queen-of-narnia-nylon-clad-floosie-of-post-war-britain/534023/47 "2010-03-29T16:40:18Z")
At any rate, I concede that my rant should probably be softened to “_most_ non-believers aren’t rejecting Christianity because they’ve seen obvious miracles and refuse to be convinced, but rather because they haven’t seen any miracles”. (It’s harder to build up a good froth when I put it that way, though.) For what it’s worth, I don’t personally believe in (literal) miracles, but I have to agree with **FriarTed** ’s implication that it’s more relevant to ask whether the person herself views it as a miracle. ---
**Author:** ![Miss\_Woodhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@Miss\_Woodhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miss_Woodhouse)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/susan-queen-of-narnia-nylon-clad-floosie-of-post-war-britain/534023/48 "2010-03-29T17:47:20Z")
It’s actually more common than you might think for someone to have what they consider miracles in their life, events that they strongly attribute the workings of God, and then later revise those events in their head and reject that God had anything to do with it. The human mind is a miraculous thing in and of itself. we are very much able to change our own stories and memories. It’s very easy to say “oh I was deluded/dreaming/fantasizing/crazy” and reject something you once believed. It’s also very easy to push something that was once important to you into the background and vocal deny it’s importance while still not really convincing yourself. This is what I think happened to Susan. She wanted the boys and the nylons and the pretty things. She wanted to be cool and accepted and talking about Narnia isn’t a great way to get dates. I believe as she matured she came back to her belief and found it waiting for her. This is of course why I like it when a story just finishes and doesn’t drag on forever trying to tie up every loose end. I want the author to leave me a little of the story to finish myself. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/susan-queen-of-narnia-nylon-clad-floosie-of-post-war-britain/534023/49 "2010-03-29T18:07:34Z")
Yep, I know people who have done it. In the Bible, Jesus says that signs aren’t given out to people who want them as proof. Because miracles don’t convert people. You can always talk yourself out of it if you want to. I do like to think that Susan grew up and went back. I think that would be completely realistic. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/susan-queen-of-narnia-nylon-clad-floosie-of-post-war-britain/534023/50 "2010-03-29T18:15:16Z")
Incidentally I think that if you want to say “Why did it have to be a girl who backslid? Why couldn’t it be a boy? That’s sexist!” you have to answer “Why did it have to be a boy whose fault it was Aslan had to die?” or “Why did it have to be a boy who was a giant jerk and had to turn into a dragon to learn his lesson”. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/susan-queen-of-narnia-nylon-clad-floosie-of-post-war-britain/534023/51 "2010-03-29T18:17:22Z")
I always assumed Susan simply grew up and discarded childish fantasies. But the younger children were frozen at an early age when they died and were still capable of entering Narnia again. Sort of “If you believe it, it can come true.” The same philosophy used to keep Tinker Bell alive in Peter Pan. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/susan-queen-of-narnia-nylon-clad-floosie-of-post-war-britain/534023/52 "2010-03-29T18:47:58Z")
**dangermom** wrote: “ **Because miracles don’t convert people.** You can always talk yourself out of it if you want to.” (bolding mine) See, if I was being too extreme in saying (paraphrasing) “Nobody rejects Christianity _in spite of_ witnessing a miracle”, then this is equally too extreme the other way. Because surely miracles _do_ convert some people . . . in fact, I would dare say _most_ people would be converted by witnessing a sufficiently dramatic miracle. At the very least, we have plenty of historical records of people who converted after witnessing what they believed to be a miracle. So if (1) Christian beliefs are factually correct and (2) God _wants_ to convert as many people to Christianity as possible, then we’d sure as heck expect to be seeing a lot more miracles. The fact that we aren’t seeing them indicates that at least one of those two premises is false (which I’m sure surprises no one, but I imagine there’d be plenty of debate about which one it is). ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/susan-queen-of-narnia-nylon-clad-floosie-of-post-war-britain/534023/53 "2010-03-29T19:57:42Z")
Quoth **tim314** : > [@](#): > > I agree that that’s what Lewis was getting at . . . and that’s why the bit with Susan is absolutely the worst part of the series for me. Because the thing is, nobody rejects Christianity because they’ve seen obvious miracles and just aren’t willing to believe it. They reject it because they haven’t seen such proof. I’ve seen folks say on this very board that if they witnessed an honest-to-God, genuine, undeniable miracle, they would conclude that they were going crazy and hallucinating rather than accept it as evidence of the supernatural. Such folks may be rare, but they do exist. As for the question of continuing Susan’s story, I think it’s an essential element of the books as a whole that that story _not_ be completed. Maybe she found faith again, and maybe she didn’t: We can hope, but we don’t know. To resolve that ambiguity would diminish the stories as a whole, not enhance them. ---
**Author:** ![Waenara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/50afbb/32.png) [@Waenara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waenara)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/susan-queen-of-narnia-nylon-clad-floosie-of-post-war-britain/534023/54 "2010-03-29T20:20:39Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I’ve seen folks say on this very board that if they witnessed an honest-to-God, genuine, undeniable miracle, they would conclude that they were going crazy and hallucinating rather than accept it as evidence of the supernatural. Such folks may be rare, but they do exist. I think if I witnessed a supposed miracle I would be inclined to think it’s more likely that I was hallucinating or crazy (especially if it is brief, not witnessed by others, etc…). Occam’s Razor and all that. Susan’s “miracle”, however, was living most of a lifetime in another world, with her brothers and sisters as witnesses who could all corroborate the events. Much harder to brush off as just a hallucination or something. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/susan-queen-of-narnia-nylon-clad-floosie-of-post-war-britain/534023/55 "2010-03-29T20:37:43Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > I always assumed Susan simply grew up and discarded childish fantasies. But the younger children were frozen at an early age when they died and were still capable of entering Narnia again. > > Sort of “If you believe it, it can come true.” The same philosophy used to keep Tinker Bell alive in Peter Pan. Well, except that Peter was older than Susan, and Polly and Digory were far older, and Susan’s problem was too little growing up, not too much. She rushed on ahead to get to the silly party-girl stage as soon as she could, and didn’t want to give that up in favour of, say, marriage and motherhood and so on. ---
**Author:** ![kelly5078](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/6f9a4e/32.png) [@kelly5078](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kelly5078)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/susan-queen-of-narnia-nylon-clad-floosie-of-post-war-britain/534023/56 "2010-03-29T21:58:06Z")
I personally don’t believe that Susan is handled at all coherently. Thinking about her just makes my brain give off steam. Maybe she just got tired of being jerked around. ---
**Author:** ![Electric\_Warrior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@Electric\_Warrior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Electric_Warrior)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/susan-queen-of-narnia-nylon-clad-floosie-of-post-war-britain/534023/57 "2010-03-29T22:36:24Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Incidentally I think that if you want to say “Why did it have to be a girl who backslid? Why couldn’t it be a boy? That’s sexist!” you have to answer “Why did it have to be a boy whose fault it was Aslan had to die?” or “Why did it have to be a boy who was a giant jerk and had to turn into a dragon to learn his lesson”. :dubious: Okay, but we also have the data point of the White Witch being a woman who uses seduction to get her way. And isn’t she a stand in for the devil, or was I missing something? ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/susan-queen-of-narnia-nylon-clad-floosie-of-post-war-britain/534023/58 "2010-03-29T22:43:58Z")
> [@Waenara](#): > > I think if I witnessed a supposed miracle I would be inclined to think it’s more likely that I was hallucinating or crazy (especially if it is brief, not witnessed by others, etc…). Occam’s Razor and all that. > > Susan’s “miracle”, however, was living most of a lifetime in another world, with her brothers and sisters as witnesses who could all corroborate the events. Much harder to brush off as just a hallucination or something. Yeah, but Susan was already shown to be prone to talking herself out of belief in what she knew to be true if believing meant something difficult or uncomfortable or inconvenient. In _Prince Caspian_, when Aslan is leading them through the woods, remember? Lucy had been seeing him but no one else did, and once the others finally did start to see him Susan tells her something along the lines of “I truly believed it was him when you first saw him, but I convinced myself I didn’t because I just wanted to get out of these damn woods already.” Susan was set up from the second book in the series to be the one who lost her faith–or more accurately pushed her faith away because she thought it made life harder. As has been pointed out, talking about magical lands where you were once a queen like it’s real isn’t really going to make you popular. It’s going to complicate achieving things like dating and having friends and all that sort of thing that a normal young woman typically wants in her life. Remaining a Friend of Narnia is basically following Aslan down the longer path through the woods–something that, while it’s the better choice in the long term, makes life seem massively more difficult in the short term. And just like that trek through the woods, Susan chose what seemed to be the easier path in the short term, even though it meant persuading herself out of belief. But I don’t believe for a second that Susan was one of the hellbound. Shortsighted as she may have been, she had a good heart. Besides, in the woods she did finally admit to herself that Aslan really was there. If you look at that incident as a pattern for her later loss of faith in our world, it only stands to reason that she eventually had that same return to faith. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/susan-queen-of-narnia-nylon-clad-floosie-of-post-war-britain/534023/59 "2010-03-29T23:29:48Z")
> [@Electric\_Warrior](#): > > Okay, but we also have the data point of the White Witch being a woman who uses seduction to get her way. And isn’t she a stand in for the devil, or was I missing something? For Ann Coulter, but I might be getting the threads confused. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/susan-queen-of-narnia-nylon-clad-floosie-of-post-war-britain/534023/60 "2010-03-30T02:22:48Z")
> [@Waenara](#): > > I think if I witnessed a supposed miracle I would be inclined to think it’s more likely that I was hallucinating or crazy (especially if it is brief, not witnessed by others, etc…). Occam’s Razor and all that. > > Susan’s “miracle”, however, was living most of a lifetime in another world, with her brothers and sisters as witnesses who could all corroborate the events. Much harder to brush off as just a hallucination or something. I think that’s a good point about the witnesses. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/susan-queen-of-narnia-nylon-clad-floosie-of-post-war-britain/534023.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/susan-queen-of-narnia-nylon-clad-floosie-of-post-war-britain/534023.md?page=4)