# Suspected of cheating/too lucky at a Vegas casino : does the movie cliche every happen?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspected-of-cheating-too-lucky-at-a-vegas-casino-does-the-movie-cliche-every-happen/727753
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [August 13, 2015, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspected-of-cheating-too-lucky-at-a-vegas-casino-does-the-movie-cliche-every-happen/727753 "2015-08-13T17:19:51Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)
#### Post date: [August 13, 2015, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspected-of-cheating-too-lucky-at-a-vegas-casino-does-the-movie-cliche-every-happen/727753/1 "2015-08-13T17:19:51Z")
The movie cliche, the protagonists of the film use their rain man powers/time travel knowledge/magical luck to win too much money at a casino. They get dragged into a back office - it’s always small, has a desk with a casino boss who accuses them, and there are several large goons keeping the protagonists custody. Threats are made or sometimes the casino goons assault the protagonists.
This never happens, right? The real casino crew would just call real cops to arrest someone they thought was cheating, or decline to offer any more action to someone who was too lucky but they didn’t have proof of cheating, right?
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### Author:  [@crazyjoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crazyjoe)
#### Post date: [August 13, 2015, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspected-of-cheating-too-lucky-at-a-vegas-casino-does-the-movie-cliche-every-happen/727753/2 "2015-08-13T17:30:17Z")
I suppose it depends. A friend of mine worked a casino on a NA Reservation. He caught someone cheating, informed the pit boss, and a couple of bruisers took the guy out back and beat the shit out of him. So it does happen, but it is probably overly-dramatized in the movies.
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### Author:  [@Bones\_Daley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bones_Daley)
#### Post date: [August 13, 2015, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspected-of-cheating-too-lucky-at-a-vegas-casino-does-the-movie-cliche-every-happen/727753/3 "2015-08-13T17:43:54Z")
> [@Habeed](#):
>
> The real casino crew would just call real cops to arrest someone they thought was cheating, right?
Never in a million years
> [@Habeed](#):
>
> The real casino crew would just decline to offer any more action to someone who was too lucky but they didn’t have proof of cheating, right?
^^^ this
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### Author:  [@GreenElf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenElf)
#### Post date: [August 13, 2015, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspected-of-cheating-too-lucky-at-a-vegas-casino-does-the-movie-cliche-every-happen/727753/4 "2015-08-13T18:10:25Z")
> [@Habeed](#):
>
> The movie cliche, the protagonists of the film use their rain man powers/time travel knowledge/magical luck to win too much money at a casino. They get dragged into a back office - it’s always small, has a desk with a casino boss who accuses them, and there are several large goons keeping the protagonists custody. Threats are made or sometimes the casino goons assault the protagonists.
>
> This never happens, right?
If I recall past news stories local to Vegas correctly, it does _ever_ happen, though it doesn’t _every_ happen. I’d say it has happened but mainly in connection with card counting. If there’s cheating involved, such as with use of an electronic device, they would just call the police and have them arrested.
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### Author:  [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)
#### Post date: [August 13, 2015, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspected-of-cheating-too-lucky-at-a-vegas-casino-does-the-movie-cliche-every-happen/727753/5 "2015-08-13T18:14:29Z")
Back in the mob days, taking suspected cheaters out to the loading dock for some education in gambling etiquette was rather common. Now, Vegas casinos are run by very large publicly-traded corporations with rather unexciting liability policies. Actual cheaters are simply handed over to the police when caught. Suspected card counters will be backed off or banned from the property as management thinks appropriate.
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### Author:  [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)
#### Post date: [August 13, 2015, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspected-of-cheating-too-lucky-at-a-vegas-casino-does-the-movie-cliche-every-happen/727753/6 "2015-08-13T18:15:20Z")
A guy I work with goes to a casino every weekend and says that they actively encourage people who win a lot to return and play more: (a) it inspires other people to go gamble (and lose) and (b) they probably won’t keep winning forever.
Another guy who works in security at another casino told me that somebody hacked into their wifi system once and tried to cash in a slot machine ticket with a million dollar payoff on it. He was, in fact, arrested, and the van full of equipment he had backed up against the wall of the building was impounded.
Whoops, hey, GQ. Purely anecdotally, this all is.
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### Author:  [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)
#### Post date: [August 13, 2015, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspected-of-cheating-too-lucky-at-a-vegas-casino-does-the-movie-cliche-every-happen/727753/7 "2015-08-13T18:21:04Z")
As \*\*friedo \*\*said. But …
Nevada law provides that casinos may restrain errant customers until the police arrive. So a cheat is typically escorted by some uniformed casino security detail to a backstage area that’s a jail holding cell in all but name and held there until the local police gambling detail arrives to deal with the situation. Which may take a couple of hours. And which will certainly feel like being detained (although not roughed up) by goons. Which goons are free to question you about your identity, activities, accomplices, etc.
The closest I’ve been to backstage like that was after an fender-bender in a casino parking lot. They security response team (yes, team) persuaded both drivers to go with them to “fill out a report.” It took awhile to get turned loose, although I didn’t choose to make a big stink about it.
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### Author:  [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)
#### Post date: [August 13, 2015, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspected-of-cheating-too-lucky-at-a-vegas-casino-does-the-movie-cliche-every-happen/727753/8 "2015-08-13T19:38:09Z")
Casino security guards have the same power to detain people as anyone making a common-law arrest - same deal with store security and shoplifters, for example. In both cases the person doing the detaining has an obligation to turn the suspect over to the police as soon as possible.
But like the cops, security guards will frequently do their best to _persuade_ you to come to the friendly back office and chat. They can’t (legally) force the issue unless they’ve witnessed you commit a crime (like cheating. Or stabbing your blackjack dealer (I actually saw that happen once.))
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### Author:  [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)
#### Post date: [August 13, 2015, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspected-of-cheating-too-lucky-at-a-vegas-casino-does-the-movie-cliche-every-happen/727753/9 "2015-08-13T21:03:50Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#):
>
> A guy I work with goes to a casino every weekend and says that they actively encourage people who win a lot to return and play more: (a) it inspires other people to go gamble (and lose) and (b) they probably won’t keep winning forever.
>
> Another guy who works in security at another casino told me that somebody hacked into their wifi system once and tried to cash in a slot machine ticket with a million dollar payoff on it. He was, in fact, arrested, and the van full of equipment he had backed up against the wall of the building was impounded.
>
> Whoops, hey, GQ. Purely anecdotally, this all is.
I’m guessing that it depends whether they think the big winner is a big time cheater or just a guy with “a system” who had an early run of beginner’s luck.
If a nerdy looking guy with a notebook and a calculator wins a pile at the roulette wheel, casino managers will probably let him play. They LOVE guys with “a system,” because those guys usually lose big eventually.
By contrast, when they see what looks like an organized group winning too much (like the famed MIT card-counting group that inspired the movie _ **21** _), managers will probably toss the bettors out and try to get them blackballed from all area casinos.
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### Author:  [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)
#### Post date: [August 13, 2015, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspected-of-cheating-too-lucky-at-a-vegas-casino-does-the-movie-cliche-every-happen/727753/10 "2015-08-13T21:33:22Z")
[Here’s a video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HjwzJyCQlQ) of one exchange. The guy doesn’t get dragged to a back room, but he is pulled from the table and given an ultimatum: either he leaves now (and gets to cash out), or he can continue to play but without his betting strategy (he can’t change his bet in the middle of a shoe).
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### Author:  [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)
#### Post date: [August 13, 2015, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspected-of-cheating-too-lucky-at-a-vegas-casino-does-the-movie-cliche-every-happen/727753/11 "2015-08-13T21:55:33Z")
> [@friedo](#):
>
> Casino security guards have the same power to detain people as anyone making a common-law arrest - same deal with store security and shoplifters, for example. In both cases the person doing the detaining has an obligation to turn the suspect over to the police as soon as possible.
Much of what the casino considers cheating is not illegal so they can’t legally detain you or make a citizen’s arrest.
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### Author:  [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)
#### Post date: [August 14, 2015, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspected-of-cheating-too-lucky-at-a-vegas-casino-does-the-movie-cliche-every-happen/727753/12 "2015-08-14T17:32:43Z")
**Card counting is not cheating.** It is merely turning the tables on the house advantage. If a casino wants to defeat it, they could do their own card counting and shuffle whenever the odds look a bit unfavorable. Yes, that would slow them down a bit, but so what?
That said, how could you cheat in Vegas? I suppose you could have collusion at a poker table, which is cheating, but the house doesn’t suffer; only the other plays. The house rake is just that and not a question of odds.
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### Author:  [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)
#### Post date: [August 14, 2015, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspected-of-cheating-too-lucky-at-a-vegas-casino-does-the-movie-cliche-every-happen/727753/13 "2015-08-14T17:40:13Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#):
>
> That said, how could you cheat in Vegas? I suppose you could have collusion at a poker table, which is cheating, but the house doesn’t suffer; only the other plays. The house rake is just that and not a question of odds.
Past-posting is the most common form of cheating busted by casino security. Stealing chips from other players. Marking cards with barely-visible schmutz in pitch games. Various inside jobs to rig slot machines also happen from time to time. Collusion with dealers happens from time to time as well.
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### Author:  [@crazyjoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crazyjoe)
#### Post date: [August 14, 2015, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspected-of-cheating-too-lucky-at-a-vegas-casino-does-the-movie-cliche-every-happen/727753/14 "2015-08-14T17:48:55Z")
> [@friedo](#):
>
> Past-posting is the most common form of cheating busted by casino security. Stealing chips from other players. Marking cards with barely-visible schmutz in pitch games. Various inside jobs to rig slot machines also happen from time to time. Collusion with dealers happens from time to time as well.
In my example above, it was a really cool trick in blackjack:
The gambler would set up a stack of chips as his bet (usually small value, $5 - $10 chips). On a win, while the dealer was paying out to position 1, this guy (at the other end of the table, slot 5 or 6), would casually flick a high-value chip from his reserve stack so that it would knock the bottom chip out – which he would catch in his other hand. If he lost, he simply let the bet go. They had to review it via the overhead cameras to actually see it in action…the dealer just saw something funny out of the corner of his eye.
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### Author:  [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)
#### Post date: [August 14, 2015, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspected-of-cheating-too-lucky-at-a-vegas-casino-does-the-movie-cliche-every-happen/727753/15 "2015-08-14T18:26:54Z")
> [@crazyjoe](#):
>
> In my example above, it was a really cool trick in blackjack:
>
> The gambler would set up a stack of chips as his bet (usually small value, $5 - $10 chips). On a win, while the dealer was paying out to position 1, this guy (at the other end of the table, slot 5 or 6), would casually flick a high-value chip from his reserve stack so that it would knock the bottom chip out – which he would catch in his other hand. If he lost, he simply let the bet go. They had to review it via the overhead cameras to actually see it in action…the dealer just saw something funny out of the corner of his eye.
I saw something similar once. Dude was at third base on a crowded blackjack table. He was betting tall stacks, but always randomly, usually between 5 and 8 chips per hand. When he got dealt a strong hand (say a 18 or better, or an 11) he would cheer vociferously and clap, which was his cover for sneaking an additional chip on his stack. Since he was at third base, the dealer was always looking at the first-base player for instruction while he was dropping extra chips. (That player happened to be me.) He was very smooth. The result was that his even though his initial bets ranged randomly, his _average_ bet on strong hands was higher. By the time I discreetly alerted the pit boss, it turned out they had been watching him for some time already. He left with a pair of complimentary bracelets. I got a free ticket to Criss Angel. I should have gone to jail instead.
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### Author:  [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)
#### Post date: [August 14, 2015, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspected-of-cheating-too-lucky-at-a-vegas-casino-does-the-movie-cliche-every-happen/727753/16 "2015-08-14T18:36:13Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#):
>
> **Card counting is not cheating.** It is merely turning the tables on the house advantage. If a casino wants to defeat it, they could do their own card counting and shuffle whenever the odds look a bit unfavorable. Yes, that would slow them down a bit, but so what?
Many (most?) casinos in Vegas use continuous shufflers now, so counting cards is practically useless. You can count cards in the current hand, but you rarely get a big advantage in doing that.
–Mark
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### Author:  [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)
#### Post date: [August 14, 2015, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspected-of-cheating-too-lucky-at-a-vegas-casino-does-the-movie-cliche-every-happen/727753/17 "2015-08-14T19:02:42Z")
A friend of mine goes to Vegas a few times a year with a group of guys who “cheat” in that they attempt to eat and drink as much as possible while spending as little as possible. They are all alcoholics with great attitudes and their tales are epic.
Chris told me about a “system” they use in bars where you drink free as long as you are playing video poker/BJ. The machines need a twenty to start, so they all feed a twenty. The machines are on timers, so if you do not play they charge you a minimum bet anyways. So they drink and refill as fast as they can, while playing the video games as slowly as the machine allows. When someone in the group has his machine run out of money, he takes his time leaving, all the while chugging down drinks from their seated neighbors.
One time Chris got into town way before check in time. He hit the buffet where free mimosas were offered. Taking two each trip, he was very drunk by the time he could check in. He took his luggage to the room, then went to the bar again. A few hours later, exhausted, he went to take a nap. But he couldn’t remember his room number.
He _thought_ he knew the floor number, so key-card in hand he began trying one door at a time. Security was called. They took him to an office where, after showing his DL and credit card, they wrote his room number on a post-it note, stuck it to his chest, and booted him out.
Hearing their stories, I’m surprised none of them has ever taken a beating.
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### Author:  [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)
#### Post date: [August 14, 2015, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspected-of-cheating-too-lucky-at-a-vegas-casino-does-the-movie-cliche-every-happen/727753/18 "2015-08-14T19:41:32Z")
> [@markn\_1](#):
>
> Many (most?) casinos in Vegas use continuous shufflers now, so counting cards is practically useless.
Not on the Strip, except perhaps at some 6:5 scrub tables. But if you’re playing on those you deserve to lose your house anyway.
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### Author:  [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)
#### Post date: [August 14, 2015, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspected-of-cheating-too-lucky-at-a-vegas-casino-does-the-movie-cliche-every-happen/727753/19 "2015-08-14T19:48:31Z")
> [@kayaker](#):
>
> A friend of mine goes to Vegas a few times a year with a group of guys who “cheat” in that they attempt to eat and drink as much as possible while spending as little as possible. They are all alcoholics with great attitudes and their tales are epic.
>
> Chris told me about a “system” they use in bars where you drink free as long as you are playing video poker/BJ. The machines need a twenty to start, so they all feed a twenty. The machines are on timers, so if you do not play they charge you a minimum bet anyways. So they drink and refill as fast as they can, while playing the video games as slowly as the machine allows. When someone in the group has his machine run out of money, he takes his time leaving, all the while chugging down drinks from their seated neighbors.
>
> One time Chris got into town way before check in time. He hit the buffet where free mimosas were offered. Taking two each trip, he was very drunk by the time he could check in. He took his luggage to the room, then went to the bar again. A few hours later, exhausted, he went to take a nap. But he couldn’t remember his room number.
>
> He _thought_ he knew the floor number, so key-card in hand he began trying one door at a time. Security was called. They took him to an office where, after showing his DL and credit card, they wrote his room number on a post-it note, stuck it to his chest, and booted him out.
>
> Hearing their stories, I’m surprised none of them has ever taken a beating.
Another strategy is to pool your money and go play roulette, one guy always betting on red and the other guy black. Not a winning game but you have a decent chance of breaking even or close to. Just make sure your friend doesn’t stiff you if he wins big.
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### Author:  [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)
#### Post date: [August 14, 2015, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspected-of-cheating-too-lucky-at-a-vegas-casino-does-the-movie-cliche-every-happen/727753/20 "2015-08-14T21:00:35Z")
So if a gambler is really good, he should intentionally lose just enough to not be under suspicion, right?
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