# Suspected of cheating/too lucky at a Vegas casino : does the movie cliche every happen? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 13, 2015, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspected-of-cheating-too-lucky-at-a-vegas-casino-does-the-movie-cliche-every-happen/727753 "2015-08-13T17:19:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspected-of-cheating-too-lucky-at-a-vegas-casino-does-the-movie-cliche-every-happen/727753/21 "2015-08-14T21:32:55Z")
What’s a “really good” gambler, though? Casino games run by the numbers. It’s certainly possible to get very lucky without attracting suspicion. It happens all the time. Just not to most people. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspected-of-cheating-too-lucky-at-a-vegas-casino-does-the-movie-cliche-every-happen/727753/22 "2015-08-14T21:59:58Z")
A “good” gambler doesn’t gamble. He plays the odds correctly. That means poker, video poker and maybe sports bets. Anything else is for suckers - too much of a house edge. Craps also needs to be included, if you play at a place that allows 3, 4, 5 X odds. Taking the odds can reduce the house edge to _almost_ zero. ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/do_not_taunt/32/2968_2.png) [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspected-of-cheating-too-lucky-at-a-vegas-casino-does-the-movie-cliche-every-happen/727753/23 "2015-08-14T22:09:26Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > Another strategy is to pool your money and go play roulette, one guy always betting on red and the other guy black. Not a winning game but you have a decent chance of breaking even or close to. Just make sure your friend doesn’t stiff you if he wins big. Is the intent here to “win” the free drinks? It actually seems reasonably expensive - every spin of the wheel represents an expected loss of 5.3% of your combined bets (the two green spots will come up 2/38, or 5.3%, of the time.) I don’t play a lot of roulette, but if you’re betting $10 / ea per spin, and the house can spin the wheel once a minute, that’s $63.60 / hour for some free drinks. (Are those assumptions reasonable?) ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspected-of-cheating-too-lucky-at-a-vegas-casino-does-the-movie-cliche-every-happen/727753/24 "2015-08-14T22:13:39Z")
> [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](#): > > Is the intent here to “win” the free drinks? It actually seems reasonably expensive - every spin of the wheel represents an expected loss of 5.3% of your combined bets (the two green spots will come up 2/38, or 5.3%, of the time.) I don’t play a lot of roulette, but if you’re betting $10 / ea per spin, and the house can spin the wheel once a minute, that’s $63.60 / hour for some free drinks. (Are those assumptions reasonable?) Those assumptions are accurate, but at a crowded roulette table, spins-per-hour is more like 30 or 40, and single-zero roulette can still be found in some places, in which case your expected value per bet is just -2.7%. Of course, the whole point of people doing this is that they’re having more fun getting “free” drinks and playing roulette than spending an equivalent amount of money at the bar. ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspected-of-cheating-too-lucky-at-a-vegas-casino-does-the-movie-cliche-every-happen/727753/25 "2015-08-14T22:20:14Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > A “good” gambler doesn’t gamble. He plays the odds correctly. That means poker, video poker and maybe sports bets. Anything else is for suckers - too much of a house edge. > > Craps also needs to be included, if you play at a place that allows 3, 4, 5 X odds. Taking the odds can reduce the house edge to _almost_ zero. Basic Strategy blackjack also reduces the house odds to almost zero – less than 0.2%, depending on the house rules. Counting cards gives you the advantage. –Mark ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspected-of-cheating-too-lucky-at-a-vegas-casino-does-the-movie-cliche-every-happen/727753/26 "2015-08-14T23:09:28Z")
6:5 and continuous shufflers kick the edge right back up, though. And playing basic strategy is a slog. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspected-of-cheating-too-lucky-at-a-vegas-casino-does-the-movie-cliche-every-happen/727753/27 "2015-08-15T00:21:43Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > 6:5 and continuous shufflers kick the edge right back up, though. And playing basic strategy is a slog. Nobody who’s playing 6:5 blackjack is thinking very hard about optimal strategy. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspected-of-cheating-too-lucky-at-a-vegas-casino-does-the-movie-cliche-every-happen/727753/28 "2015-08-15T01:30:46Z")
In my experience, the easiest way to get free-ish drinks in Vegas is to sit down at one of the electronic craps tables they’re gradually replacing live tables with and place the minimum bet on the pass/come line every roll. I did that four or five times during this last visit, spent about an hour at the table, and walked away either even or up about five bucks. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspected-of-cheating-too-lucky-at-a-vegas-casino-does-the-movie-cliche-every-happen/727753/29 "2015-08-15T01:36:42Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > I saw something similar once. Dude was at third base on a crowded blackjack table. He was betting tall stacks, but always randomly, usually between 5 and 8 chips per hand. When he got dealt a strong hand (say a 18 or better, or an 11) he would cheer vociferously and clap, which was his cover for sneaking an additional chip on his stack. Since he was at third base, the dealer was always looking at the first-base player for instruction while he was dropping extra chips. (That player happened to be me.) He was very smooth. The result was that his even though his initial bets ranged randomly, his _average_ bet on strong hands was higher. By the time I discreetly alerted the pit boss, it turned out they had been watching him for some time already. He left with a pair of complimentary bracelets. I got a free ticket to Criss Angel. I should have gone to jail instead. No good deed… ---
**Author:** ![dougrb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/76d3ee/32.png) [@dougrb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougrb)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspected-of-cheating-too-lucky-at-a-vegas-casino-does-the-movie-cliche-every-happen/727753/30 "2015-08-15T04:53:41Z")
Here’s a good National Geographic documentary about the constant battle between casinos and cheaters. [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wlKK7FeNGc) ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspected-of-cheating-too-lucky-at-a-vegas-casino-does-the-movie-cliche-every-happen/727753/31 "2015-08-15T06:03:10Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > [Here’s a video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HjwzJyCQlQ) of one exchange. The guy doesn’t get dragged to a back room, but he is pulled from the table and given an ultimatum: either he leaves now (and gets to cash out), or he can continue to play but without his betting strategy (he can’t change his bet in the middle of a shoe). Well I watched that vid and can’t figure out what he was doing that was so offensive. What exactly is he is doing that is illegal? Fuck this shit, this is like a grocery store telling me I’m banned for only buying loss leaders or deeply discounted stuff. I’d not set foot in one of these casinos, I have social anxiety as is and they look like hellish pits of scrutiny where if you manage to win you’re told to leave. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspected-of-cheating-too-lucky-at-a-vegas-casino-does-the-movie-cliche-every-happen/727753/32 "2015-08-15T06:12:16Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Well I watched that vid and can’t figure out what he was doing that was so offensive. What exactly is he is doing that is illegal? He wasn’t doing anything illegal. What he was doing was massively spreading his bets when the deck was slightly in his favor, which is strong evidence that he was counting cards. (These guys made this video specifically to document a typical casino backoff; they were being extremely obvious on purpose.) Casinos don’t like card counters for obvious reasons, so they will kick them out or flat-bet them (you can play but must bet the same on every hand.) People who try to make money at counting cards also try to disguise their behavior so they don’t stand out as much and get tossed. Lest you think card-counting is as glamorous as in the movies, 99% of the time it’s a grind. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspected-of-cheating-too-lucky-at-a-vegas-casino-does-the-movie-cliche-every-happen/727753/33 "2015-08-15T06:33:06Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > He wasn’t doing anything illegal. What he was doing was massively spreading his bets when the deck was slightly in his favor, which is strong evidence that he was counting cards. (These guys made this video specifically to document a typical casino backoff; they were being extremely obvious on purpose.) > > Casinos don’t like card counters for obvious reasons, so they will kick them out or flat-bet them (you can play but must bet the same on every hand.) > > People who try to make money at counting cards also try to disguise their behavior so they don’t stand out as much and get tossed. Lest you think card-counting is as glamorous as in the movies, 99% of the time it’s a grind. Ok here is what I don’t understand, the casino is obviously saying their official stance is that it is not a game of skill with these actions. It almost seems like they are saying unless you mostly lose get the BLEEP out. So…why would anyone play when you aren’t allowed to use skill or mental strategy to win? I’d think casinos would want these power players to draw people in to watch them play or give it a hand them self. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspected-of-cheating-too-lucky-at-a-vegas-casino-does-the-movie-cliche-every-happen/727753/34 "2015-08-15T06:35:42Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > That said, how could you cheat in Vegas? I suppose you could have collusion at a poker table, which is cheating, but the house doesn’t suffer; only the other plays. I have been in Vegas casino security for almost 8 years. I can (kind of) answer this question. There are numerous ways to cheat, mostly involving trying to distract or confuse the dealer, or collusion with the dealer. There is a “big wheel” game in Vegas casinos where players are paid based on what number the wheel lands on. A guy saw that the wheel stopped just short of his number while the dealer was looking at the other end of the table. He reached across and nudged the wheel one more tick before she turned and paid the bets based on the altered result. This was of course very easily spotted on camera, and we detained the guy until the police could come take him to jail. People try to slip extra chips onto a winning bet, or remove chips from a losing bet, while the dealer is distracted. People take advantage of malfunctioning slot machine ticket dispensers. One person famously used slight of hand to make it appear the dice were tumbling down the craps table, when in fact only one die was tumbling and the other was “sliding” on an unchanging face. The way you’re imagining that is pretty much exactly how it happened. Casinos have added a small ridge on craps tables now which “trips” a sliding die and causes it to tumble in response. Occasionally people will even try to smudge or otherwise mark cards (this is never successful). There are lots more sneaky (and sometimes successful!) ways to cheat, which I won’t get into here. The surveillance and security teams in Vegas are pretty good at spotting that stuff, but with so much activity in so many places all at once, it would be silly to assume the cheaters never get away with it. Cheating at gaming is a pretty serious crime in Vegas though, and certainly not worth the risk. Also, the house has a very large incentive to prevent cheating even when the players are just playing against each other instead of the house. The first incentive is the reputation of the house, and another incentive is that it’s preventing crime on their property. There’s no reason to consider a poker player cheating another player any differently from a mugger stealing someone’s purse. Security would intervene (and with vigor!) in both cases. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspected-of-cheating-too-lucky-at-a-vegas-casino-does-the-movie-cliche-every-happen/727753/35 "2015-08-15T06:51:07Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Ok here is what I don’t understand, the casino is obviously saying their official stance is that it is not a game of skill with these actions. It almost seems like they are saying unless you mostly lose get the BLEEP out. > > So…why would anyone play when you aren’t allowed to use skill or mental strategy to win? Because lots of people find gambling fun. And counting cards properly takes a lot more effort and practice than most people are willing to put in. > [@](#): > > I’d think casinos would want these power players to draw people in to watch them play or give it a hand them self. They don’t really need any help convincing people to play blackjack. If you’re a casino owner there’s really no point in allowing someone with a skill advantage to take your money. Casinos games are not designed to be fair. ---
**Author:** ![dougrb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/76d3ee/32.png) [@dougrb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougrb)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspected-of-cheating-too-lucky-at-a-vegas-casino-does-the-movie-cliche-every-happen/727753/36 "2015-08-15T07:27:09Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > Casinos games are not designed to be fair. And they tell you that up front with the odds of winning. It’s just they have the perogative to not allow someone on their property that bends the odds in their favor. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspected-of-cheating-too-lucky-at-a-vegas-casino-does-the-movie-cliche-every-happen/727753/37 "2015-08-15T07:30:49Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > Because lots of people find gambling fun. Precisely. I, personally, don’t gamble with any money I can’t afford to lose, and I never expect to come out ahead. If I _do_ come out on top, then I figure the meal I’ll be having on my way home from the casino just paid for itself. If I lose my money, then at least I had fun doing so. ---
**Author:** ![GreenElf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@GreenElf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenElf)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspected-of-cheating-too-lucky-at-a-vegas-casino-does-the-movie-cliche-every-happen/727753/38 "2015-08-15T13:28:04Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > A “good” gambler doesn’t gamble. He plays the odds correctly. That means poker, video poker and maybe sports bets. Anything else is for suckers - too much of a house edge. > > Craps also needs to be included, if you play at a place that allows 3, 4, 5 X odds. Taking the odds can reduce the house edge to _almost_ zero. Video poker is only worthwhile for those who have the bankroll to withstand the variance. You’re steadily losing money until you hit one of those jackpots. The easiest money in a casino is, imo, blackjack tournaments. The competition is easier than poker tournaments, and you really only need to play basic strategy with some deviations at appropriate times, plus you aren’t playing against the house. ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspected-of-cheating-too-lucky-at-a-vegas-casino-does-the-movie-cliche-every-happen/727753/39 "2015-08-15T15:24:45Z")
When card counting was invented (or popularized) by Edward Thorpe in the early 1960s, the casinos didn’t believe it was possible. They weren’t concerned about it, so you could bet $2 on one hand and $200 on the next hand and they wouldn’t bat an eye. They soon discovered their mistake, and now you’ll get the pit boss watching your every move if you quadruple your bet. Many pit bosses and dealers can count too, so they know if you’re adjusting your behavior to match the count. Counting in modern casinos is not a way to get rich. I read something by one of the big counters (maybe Ken Uston?) who said that by playing blackjack full time (say 8 hours a day every day), he was making about $30,000 a year. There are plenty of jobs that pay more than that, without the risk of losing your job if you’re too good at it. –Mark ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/do_not_taunt/32/2968_2.png) [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspected-of-cheating-too-lucky-at-a-vegas-casino-does-the-movie-cliche-every-happen/727753/40 "2015-08-15T17:01:41Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > Those assumptions are accurate, but at a crowded roulette table, spins-per-hour is more like 30 or 40, and single-zero roulette can still be found in some places, in which case your expected value per bet is just -2.7%. I’ve usually heard the two-green-spot wheels as being ‘American’ wheels and the one-green-spot wheels as being ‘European.’ I’ve never seen one of these one-green-spot wheels, but never played roulette outside Vegas, so there’s that… > [@](#): > > Of course, the whole point of people doing this is that they’re having more fun getting “free” drinks and playing roulette than spending an equivalent amount of money at the bar. YMMV of course, but for me a lot of the fun in gambling (I tend to play craps and blackjack when I’m in Vegas) is the anticipation and - especially - the winning. The camaraderie that occurs when everyone wins together in craps is pretty awesome too. The problem with this system, though, is that there is literally zero chance of ever winning a single spin. The best case on a spin is that it comes up red or black, and you break even. The worse case is it comes up green and you lose. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspected-of-cheating-too-lucky-at-a-vegas-casino-does-the-movie-cliche-every-happen/727753.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspected-of-cheating-too-lucky-at-a-vegas-casino-does-the-movie-cliche-every-happen/727753.md?page=3)