# Suspending a six-year-old from school for pretending his finger was a gun and saying 'POW' **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 4, 2013, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspending-a-six-year-old-from-school-for-pretending-his-finger-was-a-gun-and-saying-pow/646015 "2013-01-04T00:15:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspending-a-six-year-old-from-school-for-pretending-his-finger-was-a-gun-and-saying-pow/646015/21 "2013-01-04T12:46:31Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Half a loaf is better than none. Some kids are eager to please adults and to learn what behavior is appropriate and to treat their peers with kindness. Other kids? You gotta make the consequences of being a jerk unpleasant enough that they won’t do it any more. If he figures out that pointing his finger and saying BANG gets adults annoyed, and he stops doing it, well, getting him to stop is half the battle. One day when I was 5, the teacher came over… took a look at what I’d been doing… openedthedoortotheothersectiontoldtheotherteachertotakebothclassesgrabbedmeinonehandandthedrawingin theotherandbroughtbothtotheprincipal. My mother was called. The drawing was pointed at, passed around, tutted over. Insults were exchanged in low, tense voices. Adults were Upset with big, capital, neon lights. I didn’t draw again until we had “drawing” as a requirement in 5th grade. Years later I found out that I hadn’t done anything wrong: the drawing was ahead of my age. “This upsets the adults therefore I must stop doing it” can be very much the wrong message. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspending-a-six-year-old-from-school-for-pretending-his-finger-was-a-gun-and-saying-pow/646015/22 "2013-01-04T12:48:39Z")
I don’t think suspension is that unheard of among young elementary school students these days. As paddling has fallen away, it’s become the “big deal” punishment. There’s also no reason to believe they only told him twice: we just know he’d been told at least twice. It’s impossible to say if this was appropriate. I can certainly imagine a scenario where it’s an overreaction, but I can also imagine a scenario where some sensitive, six-year old, already upset about Sandy Hook, gets really upset when Johnny does the gun thing at her. Johnny figures this out, so keeps doing it to her: not just on the playground, but in class, constantly trying to catch her eye, and every time he does, “POW!”. She’s breaking into tears in the middle of class 2-3 times a day, he thinks it’s funny, his parents don’t see that it’s a big deal and think the other kid is too sensitive and needs help–it’s not their son’s problem. What would you do in that case? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspending-a-six-year-old-from-school-for-pretending-his-finger-was-a-gun-and-saying-pow/646015/23 "2013-01-04T12:56:23Z")
PSA: Don’t roshambo if you can’t do the time. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspending-a-six-year-old-from-school-for-pretending-his-finger-was-a-gun-and-saying-pow/646015/24 "2013-01-04T12:56:53Z")
These types of.stories are like Rorscach tests. People in this thread are insinuating all kinds of their own material into their retellings of it. I have much experience.with the limitatioms of school personnel. I also have plenty experience with less than ideal parents. Whenever a parent chooses to go to the media with their story, I’m often dubious. In this case, apparently the child has been spoken to regarding similar behavior by the counselor and by an assistant principal. That’s already an elevated level of intervention for most kids this age. I don’t have a problem with taking it up a notch. Whether there were alternatives like in school suspension I don’t know, but a one day suspension isn’t the end of the world. I found the lawyer’s argument that we shouldn’t be concerned about this child because he is skinny and meek to be exceptionally stupid. First, kids of all body types and personalities are expected to comply with classroom and school rules. Secondly, and I am NOT saying this kid is destined to be a school shooter, but skinny and meek is not inconsistent with kids who do such things. Finally, of course kids of six years of age have the capacity to remember and follow rules! Most do it without any problem whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspending-a-six-year-old-from-school-for-pretending-his-finger-was-a-gun-and-saying-pow/646015/25 "2013-01-04T13:08:46Z")
> [@shijinn](#): > > the article as written implies it is not about bullying. it is about labelling an arbitrary action as taboo. _ **I** _ don’t understand how playing finger pistols warrants such an overreaction, nevermind a six-year-old. > > actually, scratch that. it _ **is** _ bullying. the school bullies a child into following a pointless rule. … How about instead of “finger pistols” he’s just giving the other kids “[the finger](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=flipping+the+bird&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.dmQ&bpcl=40096503&biw=1023&bih=622&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=itLmUJTWHqre0gH9h4GQCQ)”? Still an overreaction to an arbitrary action as taboo? I got arrested for doing that! CMC ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspending-a-six-year-old-from-school-for-pretending-his-finger-was-a-gun-and-saying-pow/646015/26 "2013-01-04T13:13:12Z")
Perhaps LHoD can weigh in, but it’s long been my impression that suspension isn’t truly intended as a punishment to the kids as much as it is intended to be a wake up call and punishment to the parents. A batsignal from school that your kid is being a fuckup, if you will, and your assistance in this matter is greatly appreciated. Obviously, it doesn’t always work. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspending-a-six-year-old-from-school-for-pretending-his-finger-was-a-gun-and-saying-pow/646015/27 "2013-01-04T13:44:40Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Seems ridiculous overreaction. If I’m reading it right, he did it once before and they explained to him why that was not appropriate and–_gasp!_– he did it again. He’s six! Have they ever dealt with a six-year-old before? Having to tell one something twice and only twice is miraculous. Would they suspend him if he spoke a second time without raising his hand? > > This six-year-old failed to respond even though they explained it to him, eh? That’s pretty funny. Again, maybe this is a young psycho and there are details missing, but my reaction? He’s six. Tell him a few more times, just like you’ll remind him to zip up his fly when he forgets. If you’re in the business of supervising six-year-olds, get used to it. Six-year-olds aren’t always making conscious decisions no matter how much something is “explained.” God almighty… I don’t see how you could read it that way. > [@](#): > > the suspension “was not a kneejerk reaction to a single incident.” > > In disciplining young students, Tofig added: “We always make sure there is clear conversation with the student and parents about any behaviours that have to change and what the consequences are if that behaviour doesn’t change.” … an assistant principal had warned one parent that the child’s behaviour could lead to a suspension. At school, a counsellor “had an extended conversation” with the child to emphasize “the inappropriateness of using objects to make shooting gestures,” and an assistant principal had talked to the boy about the “seriousness” of the issue, the letter said. > > “Yet, after the meeting with the counsellor and assistant principal, [the boy] chose to point his finger at a female classmate and say ‘Pow,’ “ They have a whole school full of six year olds and he seems to be the only one who, after having intervention brought up to the level of sitting down with a school counselor and a letter home warning parents that if the behavior continued there would be serious consequences, kept ignoring the rule. He’d been disciplined in the classroom by the teacher. He’d been sent to the principal’s office. He’d been sent to the school counselor. His parent’s were informed. He kept ignoring a very simple basic rule that every other six year old in the school was able to follow. I’m with **Hentor** here, the parents’ reaction, going to the media over a one day suspension that you were warned was coming unless the child stopped the behavior, is a potential sign of seriously dysfunctional parenting. Now maybe this kid can’t help himself, maybe he has some diagnosable condition, like Oppositional Defiant Disorder or some such, could be. Still labeling him as “just playing” and that his persistent ignoring of the rule should be dismissed is not in this child’s best long term interest. ---
**Author:** ![theR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@theR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theR)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspending-a-six-year-old-from-school-for-pretending-his-finger-was-a-gun-and-saying-pow/646015/28 "2013-01-04T14:45:13Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Perhaps LHoD can weigh in, but it’s long been my impression that suspension isn’t truly intended as a punishment to the kids as much as it is intended to be a wake up call and punishment to the parents. A batsignal from school that your kid is being a fuckup, if you will, and your assistance in this matter is greatly appreciated. > > Obviously, it doesn’t always work. I hope that’s the real thinking, because other interpretations of motivations behind suspensions can be much worse. One of the punishments for skipping classes at my high school was getting suspended. That’s right, if someone skipped classes they were sometimes punished by making them skip more classes. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspending-a-six-year-old-from-school-for-pretending-his-finger-was-a-gun-and-saying-pow/646015/29 "2013-01-04T14:51:37Z")
> [@theR](#): > > I hope that’s the real thinking, because other interpretations of motivations behind suspensions can be much worse. One of the punishments for skipping classes at my high school was getting suspended. That’s right, if someone skipped classes they were sometimes punished by making them skip more classes. That’s the kind of thing that seems really ironic..until you think about it for a second. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspending-a-six-year-old-from-school-for-pretending-his-finger-was-a-gun-and-saying-pow/646015/30 "2013-01-04T15:20:33Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Perhaps LHoD can weigh in, but it’s long been my impression that suspension isn’t truly intended as a punishment to the kids as much as it is intended to be a wake up call and punishment to the parents. A batsignal from school that your kid is being a fuckup, if you will, and your assistance in this matter is greatly appreciated. > > Obviously, it doesn’t always work. This is definitely part of the thinking. It’s really inconvenient to have your kid suspended: you have to arrange child care for the day, which can sometimes mean missing a day of work. Most parents don’t care to have the experience repeated, and they’ll convey to the child that the behavior must not repeat. For this reason I think **Karl** isn’t entirely right about how it acts to reinforce the behavior: the plan is for it to convey to the child that what they thought was okay really, really isn’t. Of course it doesn’t always work, but at the point that you’ve had the kid meeting with a counselor and the behavior is continuing, you need to ratchet up the response; what alternatives are there? ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspending-a-six-year-old-from-school-for-pretending-his-finger-was-a-gun-and-saying-pow/646015/31 "2013-01-04T17:32:36Z")
There is way too little information in the article to make a judgement one way or the other. On the one side of the spectrum there could be a zero tolerance policy that makes playing “lets pretend we are police” illegal and after two instances results in a suspension. In that case the policy and the suspension is stupid. On the other end of the spectrum the kid could be threatening anoter student and saying that after school he is going to get his father’s gun and shoot her dead. He is counseled that this is entirely inappropriate, but later during class he points his finger at student makes a pow sound to reinforce his threat. At that point suspension might be appropriate. Without more detail we can’t tell what the situation is. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspending-a-six-year-old-from-school-for-pretending-his-finger-was-a-gun-and-saying-pow/646015/32 "2013-01-04T17:34:31Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > There is way too little information in the article to make a judgement one way or the other. Agreed. I think it was clear in my first post, but perhaps not in later ones, that I’m not definitely defending the school here. It’s very possible that they are dealing with a non-problem, or that they’re dealing with it in a foolish manner. But that’s far from certain, from what I’ve read. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspending-a-six-year-old-from-school-for-pretending-his-finger-was-a-gun-and-saying-pow/646015/33 "2013-01-04T18:14:00Z")
I’m not sure that the suspension itself is necessarily unwarranted. He refused to obey the principal. What I do wonder about is why he was told not to make finger-guns in the first place. Unless he was yelling “bang!” in other students’ ears, or during class, or something. ---
**Author:** ![Kevbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47774/32.png) [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspending-a-six-year-old-from-school-for-pretending-his-finger-was-a-gun-and-saying-pow/646015/34 "2013-01-04T18:19:33Z")
It depends: If he was pretending his finger was an assault gun, then throw the book at him. If he was pretending his finger was a hunting gun, then a stern look should be enough. You can objectively determine this by the pretend capacity of the pretend magazine on the pretend gun. Also if it had a pretend bayonet lug to attach a pretend bayonet, or a pretend pistol grip or a pretend collapsible stock, then it is obviously a pretend assault gun. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspending-a-six-year-old-from-school-for-pretending-his-finger-was-a-gun-and-saying-pow/646015/35 "2013-01-04T18:26:52Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I’m not sure that the suspension itself is necessarily unwarranted. He refused to obey the principal. What I do wonder about is why he was told not to make finger-guns in the first place. Unless he was yelling “bang!” in other students’ ears, or during class, or something. I think every school should have a rule against finger banging on school grounds. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspending-a-six-year-old-from-school-for-pretending-his-finger-was-a-gun-and-saying-pow/646015/36 "2013-01-04T18:31:46Z")
It’s just another silly case distorted by the media. This was an issue of maintaining discipline in the school, whether it involved a ‘finger gun’ or not is irrelevant. I have no way of knowing if the school made a reasonable decision or not, but if not for recent events and the mention of a ‘gun’, this wouldn’t be news. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspending-a-six-year-old-from-school-for-pretending-his-finger-was-a-gun-and-saying-pow/646015/37 "2013-01-04T22:51:11Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > … What I do wonder about is why he was told not to make finger-guns in the first place. … From the article: > [@](#): > > The suspension came in a week when the U.S. was reeling from the massacre that claimed the lives of 20 children and six staff members at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn. You think maybe he was “teasing” other children who were scared and upset and hypersensitive over what they could not help but be overhearing? That he thought it was funny that he could make them cry? This does not come off like an sweet innocent kid just playing. And it sounds like he has parents who believe that rules do not apply to their darling child and who want their child to get the message that he should be above consequences. Parents who are accomplishing exactly what they state they want to avoid - would a one day suspension in first grade follow this kid, providing he did not ignore the rules in the future? Of course not. It’s like they believe that threat of things going in his permanent record that will keep him out of Harvard later. But having a reputation for being a family that does not want to work with the school on discipline issues, being the family that sued the school over an earned one day suspension? Yeah, _that_’ll follow him some. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspending-a-six-year-old-from-school-for-pretending-his-finger-was-a-gun-and-saying-pow/646015/38 "2013-01-04T23:49:05Z")
Maybe the other parents should act like parents and stop raising their darling eggshells to burst into tears at the sight of a finger. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspending-a-six-year-old-from-school-for-pretending-his-finger-was-a-gun-and-saying-pow/646015/39 "2013-01-04T23:57:10Z")
> [@Sevencl](#): > > I think it’s ridiculous. He didn’t actually hurt anyone, and if the gesture upsets some kids, well, tough. They have to learn sometimes other people do harmless things that annoy you, and you just have to put up with it. Well, an equally apt (probably more apt considering it’s school) lesson might be “Once you’ve been informed of the rules, you must abide by them or face the consequences.” Maybe they should change the rule. I don’t know, since I don’t know what rule he broke. But just saying that he (probably) didn’t hurt anyone by breaking it doesn’t tell us enough, in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Sevencl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sevencl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevencl)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspending-a-six-year-old-from-school-for-pretending-his-finger-was-a-gun-and-saying-pow/646015/40 "2013-01-05T00:45:36Z")
I don’t think it’s a good idea to teach our children to accept and observe rules without question. It’d be down to the parent to decide whether or not to tell the kid making that gesture is wrong. I wouldn’t appreciate a school taking it upon themselves to try to instil such ridiculous values in my kids, if I were a parent. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspending-a-six-year-old-from-school-for-pretending-his-finger-was-a-gun-and-saying-pow/646015.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suspending-a-six-year-old-from-school-for-pretending-his-finger-was-a-gun-and-saying-pow/646015.md?page=3)