# Svt4Him, the cock is crowing **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 23, 2003, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331 "2003-07-23T06:25:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/41 "2003-07-23T15:24:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*I’m talking about the rape description. > > Look, maybe I’m wrong, but I keep getting the impression that **Ben** enjoys baiting people for the hell of it. \*\* I’m starting to think that too. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/42 "2003-07-23T15:25:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by matt\_mcl \* > That’s silly. If the doctor had any chutzpah, she would say, “Yes, I do believe in doing all of that, however brutally you care to describe it, because I believe it’s necessary to save the patient’s life.” It doesn’t make any difference what the doctor can _say_. The doctor can say all she wants, but she might well lose the argument in the mind of her audience (the patient). And it would not be a legitimate loss. If I was that doctor, I would try to keep away from that type of discussion rather than relying on being able to answer as you propose. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > The graphic illustration of hell is taken from the fundies’ own descriptions. There are websites that revel in that shit. Well if it was taken from **Svt4Him** ’s website maybe you would have a point. Maybe. But as it is… ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/43 "2003-07-23T15:30:44Z")
I disagree with **Izzy’s** analogy. If someone is talking about Hell, they are talking about eternal torture. There is no other way to think of it than in the worst way possible. “Hell” is essentially a euphemism for torture. That’s the only meaning that it has. It’s disingenuous to say that X goes to Hell and then refuse to deal with the emotional significance of that statement. What if we were talking about Auschwitz but acted all offended if anyone brought up gas chambers and ovens? That’s what Auschwitz was. It’s disingenuous to shy away from the horrific details and just focus on sterile, unemotional word. It’s the same with Hell. If a person says that X goes to Hell and Hell = eternal torture then it’s only fair to skip past the word “Hell” and make that person confront the notion of eternal torture. It’s fair to ask about. **Ben** didn’t invent the concept of Hell he’s just trying to get people to think about how absurdly evil such a concept really is. He’s using shock to get people to really examine it. Does a woman who has already suffered unimaginably in life really deserve eternal torture after death? Fundies need to stand up and answer that question. ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/44 "2003-07-23T15:31:31Z")
When I go to a Jewish forum and declare that the Holocaust never happened, then you can say I’m baiting people for the hell of it. When I go to a religious forum and give a detailed description of what fundies believe, then I’m letting people see that oftentimes the fundies’ beliefs are so repulsive that even the fundies won’t stand up for them. If it weren’t for me, fundies would still yammer on about Jews being tormented in hell but it would all be an abstration, vaguely distressing at the most. You don’t like my post? Fine. You shouldn’t have read it. You should have quit early, rather than reading it through. I even added a spoiler tag to cover the upsetting parts! And yet, you don’t thank me for taking efforts to avoid offending you. Let me quote from my original post: > [@](#): > > \*\* > (BTW, I feel obligated to remind everyone that I am not a sicko. If I seem particularly imaginative on the hell issue, let me remind you that I recently visited a torture museum hosted by Amnesty International. If you want to suspect anyone of being a sicko, I’d suggest that you look to the people who actually believe in this stuff, and believe it to be a good thing, and even, at times, seem to delight in the idea that people who disagree with them will go to hell.) \*\* You complain about my graphic description of rape, but where’s the outrage at Svt4Him for _believing_ in eternal rape? All I did was put Svt4Him’s beliefs into words. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/45 "2003-07-23T15:32:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Svt4Him \* > \*\*I don’t believe in atheists. \*\* Anyone else find this extremely funny? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/46 "2003-07-23T15:33:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ben \* > \*\*I don’t see what the big deal is. Fundamentalist Christians like Svt4Him believe that non-Christians go to hell, even if they are devoted to God. As an ex-fundamentalist, I can tell you from experience that many of them believe that kind of thing only because they can sweep the real implications of it under the rug. > > Anyway, it’s not like I’m putting a gun to his head and demanding that he reject Christ. He believes something, so he should have the guts to speak up for it in all its gruesome glory. \*\* “real implications”?? as in “some nice people will go to hell”?? frankly it doesn’t take a fundementalist take on life to get there. IIRC, Lutheran belief was that \*\*only by \*\* being baptised and believing shall ye be saved. so, yes, in that scenario too, Miriam would go to hell. the problem is, as **Izzy** points out, that nice people do not like to think of bad things happening to other nice people. Hence, the fundementalists strong desire to convert. This is, not in and of itself, a bad thing. Of course, bad things are done in that vein. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/47 "2003-07-23T15:37:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IzzyR \* > \*\*In sum, there are a lot of things that are logically defensible, but are unpleasant for the human mind to think about. Forcing a debate from logical grounds onto emotional ones is a sleazeball tactic, IMHO. \*\* Fuck that. Just because an argument provokes an emotional response in some people does not mean that it is without logical justification. It is by examining the most difficult, emotionally sensitive areas of a debate that we can find out how consistent people are willing to be when they try to make logical arguments. **Ben** ’s post did exactly that. I remember having my eyes opened in this way when i first read some of Peter Singer’s work on the ethics of treating animals differently from humans. Many of Singer’s arguments push emotional buttons, but they also force one to think more closely about things that are often taken for granted. For example, some people argue that killing animals is OK because they don’t have consciousness of their own existence and their future life in the way that people do. Singer argues that, using this argument, it would be acceptable to kill babies and people in comas, because their sense of their own existence is no greater than that of most animals.\* As i’ve argued elsewhere, i think that Singer’s hyper-rational approach tends to place too little emphasis on the visceral, emotional issues that are so important here. Just because we can construct rational arguments about why we should treat animals and humans the same does not mean that we can easily ignore centuries of habit and custom. Singer, however, helps us separate the rational from the emotional. **Ben** ’s post did a similar thing, but in a different way. He injected excess emotionalism in an effort to test the limits of **Svt4Him** ’s logical arguments. A reasonable debating tactic, IMO. \*Very simplified argument, in order to save space. I didn’t want this turning into a debate over animal rights. ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/48 "2003-07-23T15:38:35Z")
It’s not a bad thing for a brainwashing cult to gain new converts? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/49 "2003-07-23T15:52:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ben \* > \*\*It’s not a bad thing for a brainwashing cult to gain new converts? \*\* you are of course, putting a value judgement on their religion with that view. I’m not saying it’s inaccurate, but it’s rather disingenuous of you to suggest that you’re ‘merely’ providing a logical argument in the case, when it’s clear that you also have an agenda. FTR- I’m not now, nor ever have been a fundementalist Christian. ---
**Author:** ![Briny\_Deep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/briny_deep/32/17188_2.png) [@Briny\_Deep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Briny_Deep)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/50 "2003-07-23T16:00:03Z")
I don’t know that it’s sleazy. It is repetitive, though; that’s the third time I’ve seen **Ben** post that grim description. Christians have a much longer history of describing Hell than atheists do, don’t they? Actually, if anything, **Ben** ’s description of Hell is probably much more pleasant than the real thing (if it exists). I have to assume Hell contains torments which couldn’t even be conceived by living humans. However bad we think it is, it’s worse. I believe S4H’s point about the Ten Commandments is, _apart from Christ_, any violation results in hell. Even virtuous Miriam couldn’t have been perfectly virtuous, ergo, apart from Christ, it’s hell for her. **Ben** is trying to get S4H to admit this, in the face of a graphic description of the results of S4H’s philosophy. And S4H is indeed weaseling. Fred Phelps has a certain awful integrity when he doesn’t shy away from talking about Hell for all unbelievers. S4H, if he believes as Phelps does in the matter of Hell for unbelievers, might as well admit it; he’d lose points for compassion but gain points for honesty. That’s the bind **Ben** has him in. I don’t see the problem with forcing the Hell-for-all-unbelievers camp to own up to their own reality. And if God is just, they ought to rejoice in his justice, and in Miriam’s eternal torment. True, S4H can’t know the state of the souls of the Jews in the Holocaust. But it’s a very safe bet that few of them were followers of Christ. If not following Christ = hell, and most Jews don’t follow Christ, then indeed most Holocaust victims (setting aside the non-Jews and the few Christian Jews) are in Hell. S4H is afraid to admit this, and I’d guess he’s compassionate enough to not really _want_ this to happen. But there’s a conflict in his belief system. You can’t be more compassionate than your own God. Perhaps S4H could use this as an opportunity to make us see that Hell is a just punishment for everyone there. But I doubt he actually believes this. He’s in a pickle. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/51 "2003-07-23T16:09:22Z")
> [@](#): > > you’re ‘merely’ providing a logical argument in the case, when it’s clear that you also have an agenda. This makes no sense whatsoever. People make logical arguments _because_ they have agendas. Otherwise there would be no need to argue. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/52 "2003-07-23T16:18:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by matt\_mcl \* > \*\*This makes no sense whatsoever. People make logical arguments _because_ they have agendas. Otherwise there would be no need to argue. \*\* I disagree. and the word ‘merely’ was in quotation marks for a reason. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/53 "2003-07-23T16:27:09Z")
**Guinistasia** , you gross out way too easily. **Ben** ’s description is certainly graphic, but it’s no more so than Dante’s depiction of the torments suffered by the damned in the **Inferno**. > [@](#): > > _from Canto 28_ > A cask by losing centre-piece or cant > Was never shattered so, as I saw one > Rent from the chin to where one breaketh wind. > > Between his legs were hanging down his entrails; > His heart was visible, and the dismal sack > That maketh excrement of what is eaten. > > While I was all absorbed in seeing him, > He looked at me, and opened with his hands > His bosom, saying: "See now how I rend me; > > How mutilated, see, is Mahomet; > In front of me doth Ali weeping go, > Cleft in the face from forelock unto chin > [@](#): > > _from Canto 32_ > Already we had gone away from him, > When I beheld two frozen in one hole, > So that one head a hood was to the other; > > And even as bread through hunger is devoured, > The uppermost on the other set his teeth, > There where the brain is to the nape united. > > “O thou, who showest by such bestial sign > Thy hatred against him whom thou art eating, > Tell me the wherefore,” said I, "with this compact, > > That if thou rightfully of him complain, > In knowing who ye are, and his transgression, > I in the world above repay thee for it" Frankly, I believe that fundamentalists need to have the tenets of their wicked faith exposed to the light instead of covered up in sterile language. Fundamentalists like **Svt4Him** worship a being that delights in torturing people in hideous ways for all eternity for the most trivial offenses, like being born in a Muslim nation and never hearing the Gospel, or being a Catholic, or being gay. Fundies are as depraved as the most infernal of devil worshippers, IMO, because the Satanist and the fundie both look forward to their enemies writhing in eternal pain and suffering. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/54 "2003-07-23T16:38:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*I disagree with **Izzy’s** analogy. If someone is talking about Hell, they are talking about eternal torture. There is no other way to think of it than in the worst way possible. “Hell” is essentially a euphemism for torture. That’s the only meaning that it has. It’s disingenuous to say that X goes to Hell and then refuse to deal with the emotional significance of that statement. \*\* I don’t think this is true. I’m not Catholic, but it is my understanding that the current official Catholic take on hell is that it is _not_ eternal torture, except insofar as eternal seperation from god can be considered “torture”. It would be pretty bad to spend eternity sad and lonely, but that’s nothing like the scenario in the OP. Now, **Svt4Him** is not Catholic and may have a very different idea of hell, but that’s just it – there are different ideas of hell. You can’t just make up a description of hell and expect Christians to defend it. ---
**Author:** ![Tygr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/df788c/32.png) [@Tygr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tygr)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/55 "2003-07-23T17:14:23Z")
Actually, separation from God carries all sorts of shudder-inducing philosophical/theological implications… If you believe God to be the source of all goodness, you’re talking about a place of no warmth, no light, no contact with others, absolutely nothing of any comfort, whatsoever, for eternity. Then again, my pastor has taught me the concept of God dispensing BOTH infinite justice AND infinite mercy. Fundies, atheists and others point to that as a logical disconnect which bolsters their respective positions. But calling it a logical disconnect illustrates the futility of trying to fit God into the human construct of ‘logic’. Personally, I’d go so far as to say that MOST of the wrongs perpetrated by Christians were committed due to a line of ‘logic’ being pursued, rather than truly being in full accord with God’s Word. P’raps the best question to ask **Svt4Him** is whether he believes in a God of infinite justice, or infinite mercy. I, for one, am truly curious as to his answer. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/56 "2003-07-23T17:30:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lamia \* > \*\*I don’t think this is true. I’m not Catholic, but it is my understanding that the current official Catholic take on hell is that it is _not_ eternal torture, except insofar as eternal seperation from god can be considered “torture”. It would be pretty bad to spend eternity sad and lonely, but that’s nothing like the scenario in the OP. Now, **Svt4Him** is not Catholic and may have a very different idea of hell, but that’s just it – there are different ideas of hell. You can’t just make up a description of hell and expect Christians to defend it. \*\* It’s not true of Catholics or of a lot of mainstream Christians. I (and **Ben** ) are addressing only the very narrow segment of Christian fundamentalists who _do_ believe this way. **Svt4Him** is one of them. ---
**Author:** ![NaSultainne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8797f3/32.png) [@NaSultainne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NaSultainne)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/57 "2003-07-23T17:34:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > Fundamentalists like **Svt4Him** worship a being that delights in torturing people in hideous ways for all eternity for the most trivial offenses, like being born in a Muslim nation and never hearing the Gospel, or being a Catholic, or being gay. Wrong, so very wrong. I know your intellect, **Gobear**. Quote me chapter and verse where God demonstrates “delight in torturing people in hideous ways for all eternity”. If Jesus, on 11 occasions in the Gospels, speaks of the dangers of hell, where do you presume that anyone should do other than take him at His word? Or pretend he was only joking, for pete’s sake? I find myself increasingly frustrated by the willful ignorance displayed here. God at no point in scripture declares those born in Muslim nations, having never heard the Gospel, as some sort of prime candidate for hellfire. We _don’t know_ God’s provision for those never hearing the word. We know the provision as laid out by God Himself for those having heard the word, then turning away and rejecting Him. But that sounds more like self-inflicted judgment. As to your inclusion of gays as a “trivial ofense”, I am as always, thankful that judgment is not in my hands. > [@](#): > > Fundies are as depraved as the most infernal of devil worshippers, IMO, because the Satanist and the fundie both look forward to their enemies writhing in eternal pain and suffering. I take absolutely no delight in anyone suffering an eternal torment. I couldn’t even view **Ben’s** OP in its entirety because I am all too aware there are far too many horrors in this life which I find impossible to deal with calmly. Don’t cast aspersions because you find the Gospel unpleasant, **Gobear**. God Almighty has given us His word for instruction. Those who chose to ignore and defy God should, fairness in advertising and all that, be given some indication of the price to be paid, won’t you agree? For those so arrogant as to insist that any “true” God wouldn’t punish those who “can’t” believe in Him, well, consider the source of such reason. Man can hardly declare himself competent to argue with God, yet such he does. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/58 "2003-07-23T17:47:40Z")
Not for nothing, **Tygr** , but if **Svt4him** ’s posts to date are anything to go by, here’s what you’ll get: > [@](#): > > Hypothesized by myself on the as-yet-nonexistent response in question: > So do I believe in a god of mercy or a god of justice? Well when we used to go witnessing at the bar, and now I guess someone will come in and say no you said you were at the church, well hold your horses. So anyway when we’d be at the bar and we’d see people coming out of the bar we’d ask them do you believe you have an immortal soul. And depending on the answer we’d preach to them from the ten commandments. Now some of you probably think I don’t believe in a god of infinite mercy well that’s not really the case is it but what I do believe is that a lot of people like to point out the nice happy stuff about God loving you but not judging you. Well I was taught not to favor one over the other so of course we emphasize to some people God’s infinite justice but it’s not like we’re overemphasizing it. Just look at the ten commandments if you don’t believe me, and yes punha I am aware they’re not in galatians I don’t know why you keep bringing that up but anyway it says right in there, clear as day for anyone to read 'For I am the lord your God and I am a mighty and jealous God". > > Now right now you’re probably saying but what about the God of infinite love? Well I’m just getting to that so don’t go trying to say I didn’t answer the question completely. Now if we came upon someone and they didn’t believe the God of infinite love as strongly as they believe in the God of infinite justice then we’d preach to them from the ten commandments and show them they’re wrong. Like I said, law to the proud, grace to the humble. > > Well I suppose that doesn’t really answer your question now does it, but you asked for me to generalize an answer and all I can do is tell you what we did when we used to go witnessing on the streets. I got some stories from back then, some interesting stuff that they told me about when we were witnessing to them, and it’s stuff I can’t tell you it’s so sad. Now I bet someone’s going to come along and quote a line or two from this entire thing and say well hey you never really answered the question you just said sometimes you did this or that. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/59 "2003-07-23T17:49:37Z")
The problem with your argument, **NaSultainne** is that you presume there is a way to tell the difference between the word of God and the word of man. If my personal conscience conflicts with the _purported_ “word of God,” what should I follow? ---
**Author:** ![3trew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/13edae/32.png) [@3trew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/3trew)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/60 "2003-07-23T18:01:40Z")
My problem with **NaSultainne** ’s point is that it reminds me of Mr. Blonde explaining all those shootings in the jewellry store. “If they hadn’t’ve done what I told them not to do, all those people’d still be alive”. It makes sense in a limited way, but once you step back and look at a larger perspective the problems start to mount. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331.md?page=4)