# Svt4Him, the cock is crowing **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 23, 2003, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331 "2003-07-23T06:25:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![whiterabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/cab0a1/32.png) [@whiterabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whiterabbit)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/61 "2003-07-23T18:03:00Z")
[slight hijack] There ARE no Christian Jews, no matter what they call themselves. They’re Christians. If you believe Jesus was the Son of God, then you are not Jewish. [end slight hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Aries28](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Aries28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aries28)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/62 "2003-07-23T18:11:48Z")
**whiterabbit** Have you heard of the group Jews for Jesus? If my memory serves they consider themselves Jews but also Christians. Their website is [www.jewsforjesus.org](http://www.jewsforjesus.org) ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/63 "2003-07-23T18:21:40Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by NaSultainne_ > > **… If Jesus, on 11 occasions in the Gospels, speaks of the dangers of hell, where do you presume that anyone should do other than take him at His word?** If this isn’t totally out of the question or too much trouble, could someone point me to where I can look up specifically what Jesus alone had to say about hell? Or, I guess if anyone is so kind and has the time, list the eleven occasions mentioned above? Thank you so much. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/64 "2003-07-23T18:27:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aries28 \* > \*\ ***whiterabbit** Have you heard of the group Jews for Jesus? If my memory serves they consider themselves Jews but also Christians. Their website is [www.jewsforjesus.org](http://www.jewsforjesus.org) \*\* Um, aren’t they just a front for converting Jews to fundamentalist Christianity? ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/65 "2003-07-23T18:29:50Z")
Aries, “Jews for Jesus” is a fundamentalist Christian group that has slapped on some fake Hebrew accents to try to dupe mainly lonely, elderly Jewish folks into changing religions. To be religiously Jewish requires that one live and believe certain things – many of which are absolutely incompatible with belief in the Christian messiah. To become a Christian is to cease to be Jewish and a fundamental level. One may be a Christian and of Hebraic descent, but that doesn’t make one a Jew. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/66 "2003-07-23T18:30:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aries28 \* > \*\ ***whiterabbit** Have you heard of the group Jews for Jesus? If my memory serves they consider themselves Jews but also Christians. Their website is [www.jewsforjesus.org](http://www.jewsforjesus.org) \*\* Jews for Jesus and other Messianic Jews are Christians not Jesus. It doesn’t matter what they call themselves. Messianic Judaism is rejected as Judaism by Orthodox, Conservative and Reform movements of Judaism. Messianic Jews are also not allowed citizenship in Israel under the law of return. Some ethnic Jews may convert to Christianity but they can no longer call themselves _religious_ Jews. **hopefool** , Jesus never mentions Hell in the Gospels. He speaks only of Gehenna and Hades. Those words are usually translated (incorrectly) as “Hell” in English. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/67 "2003-07-23T18:31:05Z")
> [@](#): > > Quote me chapter and verse where God demonstrates “delight in torturing people in hideous ways for all eternity”. Ah, but we’re not talking about what God says, but what fundies declare God says, and **Svt4Him** has already said that he believes God hates sinners and wants them punished. > [@](#): > > God at no point in scripture declares those born in Muslim nations, having never heard the Gospel, as some sort of prime candidate for hellfire. No, but your fellow fundies say God declares those who have never heard the Gospel are headed for hell. The Pizza Parlor and the RaptureReady boards both have umpteen zillion posts to that effect. Haven’t you ever read Jack Chick? [Muslims](http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/5020/5020_01.asp), [Mormons](http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0061/0061_01.asp), [Catholics](http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0074/0074_01.asp), and [Jews](http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0014/0014_01.asp) are all headed straight to Hell, and Chick’s views are widely shared by your coreligionists. > [@](#): > > As to your inclusion of gays as a “trivial ofense”, I am as always, thankful that judgment is not in my hands. If you think that my partner and I deserve eternal torture for loving each other and sharing our lives together, then you are a monster, and your faith is evil and false. I fear your Divine Tyrant as much as I fear reincarnation as an insect for the sin of eating beef, as the Hindus would have me believe, or going to Hell for drinking beer, as the Muslims teach. ---
**Author:** ![smalltowngirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4bbf92/32.png) [@smalltowngirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smalltowngirl)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/68 "2003-07-23T18:33:01Z")
It’s interesting to note that Svt4Him has yet to pony up to the table and give any sort of reply… And, OT, believing in Jesus as Christ doesn’t make you “not” Jewish - the fundamental reason being that “Jewish” is a race, as well as a religion. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/69 "2003-07-23T18:33:05Z")
> [@](#): > > Jews for Jesus and other Messianic Jews are Christians not Jesus. …or JEWS even… ---
**Author:** ![smalltowngirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4bbf92/32.png) [@smalltowngirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smalltowngirl)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/70 "2003-07-23T18:43:23Z")
**Hopeful** , I did a quick search at [biblegateway.com](http://biblegateway.com), and came up with the following references (12, and being the NIV, I searched “hell”): Matthew 5:21-23 Matthew 5:26-31 Matthew 10:27-29 Matthew 16:17-19 Matthew 18:8-10 Matthew 23:14-16 Matthew 23:34-34 Mark 9:42-48 Luke 12:4-6 Luke 16:22-24 James 3:5-7 Peter 2:3-5 STG (whose boss is in deposition today and won’t be back in until tomorrow…) ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/71 "2003-07-23T18:43:37Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic_ > > **Jesus never mentions Hell in the Gospels. He speaks only of Gehenna and Hades. Those words are usually translated (incorrectly) as “Hell” in English.** Thank you some much **Dio**. But without showing my ignorance any further than necessary (gah, I must have been such a _bad_ fundie!), what exactly then do Gehenna and Hades stand for in that or Jesus’ context? Does my question make sense? And thanks again for taking the time to answer me in the middle of y’alls debate. [sorry for the hijack :(] ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/72 "2003-07-23T18:48:09Z")
Thank you too **STG**. I’ll give those a looking up. Appreciate it. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/73 "2003-07-23T18:55:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by smalltowngirl \* > \*\*And, OT, believing in Jesus as Christ doesn’t make you “not” Jewish - the fundamental reason being that “Jewish” is a race, as well as a religion. \*\* It is? How do you figure that? Robin ;j ---
**Author:** ![Tygr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/df788c/32.png) [@Tygr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tygr)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/74 "2003-07-23T19:36:20Z")
**’punha** : Um, yeah. [sub]No offense, but weren’t we admonished not to put words into other Dopers’ mouths?[/sub] If not, then can you say what you think he’d say but NOT like he’d say it…? Just so I can understand…? 'sides, I’m becoming one who doesn’t expect an answer, since I’m getting the feeling that he’s one that doesn’t frequent the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![smalltowngirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4bbf92/32.png) [@smalltowngirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smalltowngirl)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/75 "2003-07-23T19:52:26Z")
{maybe holding head down in shame, but willing to offer sincere apology if I was wrong} I have always thought and been told by others I assumed more knowing than me (and again, I’m sorry if I’ve been ignorant, but I’m willing to learn) - that one was Jewish the same that one was Chinese or Indian, or Caucasian, etc. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/76 "2003-07-23T20:03:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*If you think that my partner and I deserve eternal torture for loving each other and sharing our lives together, then you are a monster, and your faith is evil and false. \*\* Mind if I put that on my quotes page, Gobear? ---
**Author:** ![smalltowngirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4bbf92/32.png) [@smalltowngirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smalltowngirl)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/77 "2003-07-23T20:05:12Z")
Okay, now I’ve done some slight research on the Internet (as I said, my boss is away today…) - I think I’ve been taught wrong my entire life - albiet by people who were just as ignorant - and never even questioned them. Now I’ve probably created a whole ruckus over something that didn’t belong in this thread in the first place. My sincere apologies to anyone if I’ve offended. STG ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/78 "2003-07-23T20:16:49Z")
**smalltowngirl** I think you’ve shown not only that you are willing to fight your own ignorance (Heck, we all have some, that’s why we like it here) but went above and beyond and researched a topic to become truly informed. Heck, if anyone’s offended, screw em. I’m proud of ya! ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/79 "2003-07-23T20:16:50Z")
Hey, don’t worry **smalltowngirl** , fighting ignorance is what this board is all about. You have the brains and the guts to go out and check up on things. I think you will fit in fine here. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/80 "2003-07-23T20:21:48Z")
First crack in the armor, perhaps **smalltowngirl**. Go look up Arianism now, or get a copy of the book [\*When Jesus Became God: The Epic Fight over Christ’s Divinity in the Last Days of Rome \*](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0151003688/cyberhaven00/002-0018216-1220041) by **Richard Rubenstein**. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331.md?page=5)