# Svt4Him, the cock is crowing **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 23, 2003, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331 "2003-07-23T06:25:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/101 "2003-07-24T04:56:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > \*\*The Jews for Jesus are Baptists who have established an “outreach” program of proselytization by pretending that they are, in fact, Messianic Jews. (Obviously, some of them are probably Jews who have been recruited, but the movement was created, organized, and funded by a Baptist preacher and most of his claose associates are also born Baptist.) \*\* Which actually makes them Judaizers, after a fashion, the first Christian heresy to be denounced in the first Ecumenical Council in Jerusalem. Funny how many of the heresies of the past now have their own Protestant denominations. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/102 "2003-07-24T05:22:16Z")
I’m not Jewish myself, but I have several friends who are. All of them are non-practicing, all fall somewhere between agnostic and athiest philosophically, and all of them would be greatly offended if anyone suggested they weren’t really Jewish. Also, can anyone explain the meaning of the thread title? Hopeless geek that I am, I thought it was a Hobbit reference, and was **Ben** ’s sly way of calling **Svt4him** a troll. Apparently, it’s actually something Biblical? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/103 "2003-07-24T05:29:00Z")
I’m thinking maybe it’s about Peter denying Jesus before the cock had crowed three times? ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/104 "2003-07-24T06:33:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tygr \* > **’punha** : Um, yeah. > > [sub]No offense, but weren’t we admonished not to put words into other Dopers’ mouths?[/sub] We were, in fact, directed not to do that, which is why I qualified my post: > [@](#): > > Hypothesized by myself on the as-yet-nonexistent response in question: Perhaps I should have more carefully emphasized that it was the response I imagine he’ll give. > [@](#): > > If not, then can you say what you think he’d say but NOT like he’d say it…? Just so I can understand…? I think he’ll hedge his response basically like “well here’s what we’ve done like I told you we used to do it, and I’m not going to answer the question specifically.” He has a way of not answering questions all the way and “in return”, telling a story that tries to lose the reader in the story he’s telling. After about the first time one becomes wary of it and cuts through **Svt4Him Story4You Time** to find that he hasn’t answered the question. To be fair, he does eventually answer about half of the questions directed at him. > [@](#): > > 'sides, I’m becoming one who doesn’t expect an answer, since I’m getting the feeling that he’s one that doesn’t frequent the Pit. He may well not answer, but it won’t be because of any lack in him posting in the Pit. He’s done plenty of that. IIRC he is out somewhere without internet access. Now the question about the reference in the OP title. A very clever one IMO, and one which is actually a double-entendre, though not in the typical sense. To wit: > [@](#): > > Matthew 26: > 31 Then Jesus said to them, “You will all fall away because of me this night; for it is written, ‘I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.’ 32 But after I am raised up, I will go before you to Galilee.” **33 Peter declared to him, “Though they all fall away because of you, I will never fall away.” 34 Jesus said to him, “Truly, I say to you, this very night, before the cock crows, you will deny me three times.” 35 Peter said to him, “Even if I must die with you, I will not deny you.”** And so said all the disciples. 36 Then Jesus went with them to a place called Gethsem’ane, and he said to his disciples, “Sit here, while I go yonder and pray.” 37 And taking with him Peter and the two sons of Zeb’edee, he began to be sorrowful and troubled. 38 Then he said to them, “My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain here, and watch with me.” 39 And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.” 40 And he came to the disciples and found them sleeping; and he said to Peter, “So, could you not watch with me one hour? 41 Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.” 42 Again, for the second time, he went away and prayed, “My Father, if this cannot pass unless I drink it, thy will be done.” 43 And again he came and found them sleeping, for their eyes were heavy. 44 So, leaving them again, he went away and prayed for the third time, saying the same words. 45 Then he came to the disciples and said to them, “Are you still sleeping and taking your rest? Behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. 46 Rise, let us be going; see, my betrayer is at hand.” 47 While he was still speaking, Judas came, one of the twelve, and with him a great crowd with swords and clubs, from the chief priests and the elders of the people. 48 Now the betrayer had given them a sign, saying, “The one I shall kiss is the man; seize him.” 49 And he came up to Jesus at once and said, “Hail, Master!” And he kissed him. 50 Jesus said to him, “Friend, why are you here?” Then they came up and laid hands on Jesus and seized him. 51 And behold, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword, and struck the slave of the high priest, and cut off his ear. 52 Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place; for all who take the sword will perish by the sword. 53 Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels? 54 But how then should the scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?” 55 At that hour Jesus said to the crowds, “Have you come out as against a robber, with swords and clubs to capture me? Day after day I sat in the temple teaching, and you did not seize me. 56 But all this has taken place, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled.” Then all the disciples forsook him and fled. 57 Then those who had seized Jesus led him to Ca’iaphas the high priest, where the scribes and the elders had gathered. 58 But Peter followed him at a distance, as far as the courtyard of the high priest, and going inside he sat with the guards to see the end. 59 Now the chief priests and the whole council sought false testimony against Jesus that they might put him to death, 60 but they found none, though many false witnesses came forward. At last two came forward 61 and said, “This fellow said, ‘I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.’” 62 And the high priest stood up and said, “Have you no answer to make? What is it that these men testify against you?” 63 But Jesus was silent. And the high priest said to him, “I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.” 64 Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.” 65 Then the high priest tore his robes, and said, “He has uttered blasphemy. Why do we still need witnesses? You have now heard his blasphemy. 66 What is your judgment?” They answered, “He deserves death.” 67 Then they spat in his face, and struck him; and some slapped him, 68 saying, “Prophesy to us, you Christ! Who is it that struck you?” **69 Now Peter was sitting outside in the courtyard. And a maid came up to him, and said, “You also were with Jesus the Galilean.” 70 But he denied it before them all, saying, “I do not know what you mean.” 71 And when he went out to the porch, another maid saw him, and she said to the bystanders, “This man was with Jesus of Nazareth.” 72 And again he denied it with an oath, “I do not know the man.” 73 After a little while the bystanders came up and said to Peter, “Certainly you are also one of them, for your accent betrays you.” 74 Then he began to invoke a curse on himself and to swear, “I do not know the man.” And immediately the cock crowed. 75 And Peter remembered the saying of Jesus, “Before the cock crows, you will deny me three times.” And he went out and wept bitterly.** Emphasis, quite obviously, mine:D So not only has **Svt4Him** denied to admit his true beliefs (at least three times) on this issue, my guess is that **Ben** figured he would (takes reading all of 3 posts of **Svt4Him** ’s to figure out his evasive and lying style) so deny, but gave him a chance to do the “right” thing instead of posting “Now I know you won’t admit this, but…” ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/105 "2003-07-24T06:45:44Z")
So what’s the LOTR reference? Anyway, it wasn’t Biblical. I was making a reference to the Mushroom Planet books. :d&r: ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/106 "2003-07-24T06:55:03Z")
In the Hobbit, trolls turn to stone when exposed to daylight. Now that I think about it, it’s a pretty tenuous connection. Well, I said I was hopeless… ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/107 "2003-07-24T07:14:47Z")
Yeah, **Ben** , but mine insulted him more:p ---
**Author:** ![SparrowHawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ac8455/32.png) [@SparrowHawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SparrowHawk)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/108 "2003-07-24T07:21:19Z")
**whiterabbit** , please don’t yell at me. I am neither Jewish nor Christian. Am I allowed to ask a Messianic Jew about your point or only an Orthodox Jew? I acknowledged that their stance is debateable. My point is that I think it is not insincere, a “front.” **tom** , where do you get your information regarding Moishe Rosen? I have met Rosen and heard him speak and the man was not born a Gentile nor a Baptist. He may have become a Christian, but he does not “pretend” to be a Jew, he simply refuses to “lose his [ethnic] Jewishness” because he “is not practicing or observing [religious] Judaism.” **Diogenes** , what about other religious persuasions? Can you be a Jewish Scientologist? Does an ethnic Jew who is an atheist also become a Gentile? (And can you provide some cites?) I can understand that Jesus and religious Judaism are incompatible. Therefore, it seems to me that by calling the organization “Jews for Jesus”, it’s pretty clear which definition of “Jewish” is being used and it isn’t the religious one. I think I’m with **Polycarp** on this one. I have to respect a person’s right to maintain both their ethinic identity and their heartfelt spiritual beliefs and refrain from calling them psuedo-or-phony-anything just because they don’t fit into the boxes the rest of the us would like to make for them. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/109 "2003-07-24T12:03:51Z")
Perhaps sympathy, instead of scorn, is appropriate with regards to **Svt4Him**. I can relate to him or her. I was raised to believe pretty much the same way. It is a very difficult thing to come to realization that either a) your belief system is wrong or b) God is a flaming vindicitive asshole, with character traits one would scorn if demonstrated by lowly humans I ask that people consider that **Svt4Him** is as much a victim of this belief system as anything else, and perhaps hounding and insulting is not the way to demonstrate this to him. ---
**Author:** ![whiterabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/cab0a1/32.png) [@whiterabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whiterabbit)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/110 "2003-07-24T15:04:29Z")
I was leaving the whole ethnic argument out of it. The Messianics claim to be religiously Jews. They call themselves “completed Jews.” They take Jewish religious ceremonies and reinterpret them in a Christian light, while still calling them Jewish. They coopt the outside of another religion to further their own. How can this be seen as an ethical thing to do? Of COURSE somebody can retain Jewish culture and customs and be RELIGIOUSLY Christian, or Buddhist, or Hindu, or what have you. One can be a Jew and be an atheist. One cannot be a Christian AND be a PRACTICING Jew at the same time. THAT is what I meant. I know I’m yelling a lot. (And hijacking this thread in a major way. Never meant to!) I’m sure most Messianics are sincere about it, but they may not realize what’s going on. I’m sure the leadership does. As for asking an Orthodox Jew, hell, ask a REFORM Jew. They don’t like the Messianics any more than the Orthodox. I try to be tolerant, but this is one of those things that set me off. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/111 "2003-07-24T15:55:07Z")
since no one else has asked, I must… “Polycarp, what’s this sugar on his porridge stuff?” I might actually work that into daily conversation if I had any idea what it meant. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/112 "2003-07-24T16:02:07Z")
> [@](#): > > tom, where do you get your information regarding Moishe Rosen? I have met Rosen and heard him speak and the man was not born a Gentile nor a Baptist. He may have become a Christian, but he does not “pretend” to be a Jew, he simply refuses to “lose his [ethnic] Jewishness” because he “is not practicing or observing [religious] Judaism.” Sorry. Rosen was not “born” Baptist (nor did I say he was, but my statement was not clear). He was raised in a non-observing, culturally Jewish home. He converted to the Baptists in 1953 (at age 21), attended Baptist college, (I can find no information indicating that he ever entered a yeshiva), and was ordained a minister in 1957. In the mid-1960s, he began various outreach programs to proselytize Jews, culiminating in 1973 with Jews for Jesus. His funding and support were from Christians and his early fellow workers were all Christians, born and raised (_e.g._, John A. MacDonald). The information is stuff I have picked up on the web, from time to time. Some of it is from attacks on him, that I take with a grain of salt, and some of it is from Baptist sites speaking of his “mission” in glowing terms. [Rosen’s home page](http://www.jfjonline.org/branches/staff/rosen/) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/113 "2003-07-24T16:11:36Z")
> [@](#): > > “Polycarp, what’s this sugar on his porridge stuff?” It is the standard example of the [No True Scotsman fallacy](http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman). ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/114 "2003-07-24T16:19:54Z")
Ah, **Friar Ted**! It was a subtle allusion to a classic catchphrase that makes regular appearances in our religious arguments. Briefly retold, MacTavish is holding forth on the customs of his compatriots. Among them, he notes, is their avoidance of the barbaric English custom of spooning sugar over the top of their bowls of porridge. One of his listeners interrupts to point out that MacDougal always eats his porridge with sugar. “Yes,” says MacTavish, “but that proves my point. _ **No true Scotsman** _ would eat sugar on his porridge!” Neither **zev** nor I, nor **whiterabbit** , IMHO, has any business deciding how sincere the “Jewishness” or “Christianity” practiced by people who honestly consider themselves as “Messianic Jews” is, or how they resolve the doctrinal differences between the two faiths in their own mind. That is their business, and what they claim themselves to be, if no fraud is involved, I accept as what they consider themselves to be. It differs in no way in my mind from the universal statement of gay people that they did not choose to be gay and cannot by act of will stop being gay – whatever your opinion or mine may be is of no account; their own witness of what they think and feel is what counts. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/115 "2003-07-24T16:34:10Z")
**Friar** , 'Sugar on the porridge" is an allusion to the “No True Scotsman” fallacy. The analogy is that Angus claims that no Scotsman would put sugar on his porridge. Another person counters that he knows a Scotsman who puts sugar on his porridge all the time. Angus then says “Ah, but not _true_ Scotsman would put sugar on his porridge.” It’s often applied to arguments over religious definitions…i.e. no _true_ Christian…" etc. **Sparrow** , Here is the definition of “gentile” from the _American Heritage Dictionary_: > [@](#): > > 1.) One who is not of the Jewish faith or is of a non-Jewish nation. > 2.) A Christian. As you can see, a Christian is _ipso facto_ a gentile. The same would be true of anyone who actively leaves the Jewish faith. This is why Messianics are not recognized as Jews by the state of Israel. Atheistic Jews I’m less sure of. I think they would simply be regarded as non-practicing rather than apostatic. As **whiterabbit** said, you don’t have to ask an Orthodox Jew, you can also ask a Conservative or Reform Jew…or you can ask the state of Israel. “Moishe” Rosen’s real name is Martin Meyer. He is indeed a converted Jew but he has been an ordained Baptist minister since 1957. His “Jewish” ethnic practices are not authentic but are greatly distorted to fit a Christian agenda. ---
**Author:** ![Nomadic\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/858c86/32.png) [@Nomadic\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nomadic_One)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/116 "2003-07-24T17:15:18Z")
> [@](#): > > Some Jews who accept Jesus as Lord and Savior and are therefore Christians also retain a fondness for the cultural practices associated with Judaism, refuse to deny their Jewish heritage, and therefore consider themselves Messianic Jews. On the theory that I have no right to deny to anyone the term they reasonably choose to adopt for themselves, I don’t see this as a problem. Obviously, an Orthodox Jew would say that acceptance of Jesus in a quasi-divine role would be a violation of a primary tenet of Judaism – but he probably eats sugar on his porridge anyway! Polycarp we see eye to eye on this one. I know some good Jewish people whom follow Jesus, but also follow some Jewish customs. Ben as I said to counter your post in that old thread. NO ONe but God knows who is going to heaven or hell. God is the only one who can judge that. Some times one can speculate as to where due to lifestyles. But ultimitly it is God’s decision. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/117 "2003-07-24T17:34:28Z")
Diogenes When you say that Martin Rosen is a converted Jew, I can’t tell whether you mean that he converted from Christianity to Judaism, but if I understand correctly, that is not the case. He and his wife, Ceil, both were born Jewish. In fact, his family was Orthodox. He first heard the Gospel in 1948, and both he and Ceil accepted Jesus as their Lord in 1953. A year later, he enrolled in Bible college and eventually became a Baptist minister. Is my information incorrect? ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/118 "2003-07-24T18:14:35Z")
To keep this thread from being further hijacked, I’ve started a GD thread: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=199927](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=199927) ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/119 "2003-07-24T18:17:58Z")
Does the Bible actually go into specifics about the tortures of Hell, or is that just an assumed thing? The tortures of Hell are certainly prevalent in pagan myths, as well as Dante’s _Inferno_, but does the Bible actually go into detail about it? I’ve heard that the afterlife without Jesus’s grace would be bad enough to be considered Hell, but does the Bible actually say it’s little cacking devils with pitchforks? ---
**Author:** ![whiterabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/cab0a1/32.png) [@whiterabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whiterabbit)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331/120 "2003-07-24T18:35:14Z")
Apologies for all the yelling. I got very frustrated last night because this is one of those things that just seems very clear to me. I’ll be more rational in the other thread – I promise! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/svt4him-the-cock-is-crowing/190331.md?page=7)