# SW nitpick on age of Jedi recruits **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 18, 2006, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sw-nitpick-on-age-of-jedi-recruits/380944 "2006-11-18T14:41:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sw-nitpick-on-age-of-jedi-recruits/380944/21 "2006-11-19T18:31:52Z")
And I’m pretty sure Lucas approves of Mara Jade. (Emperor’s Hand, thus a semi-jedi) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sw-nitpick-on-age-of-jedi-recruits/380944/22 "2006-11-19T21:11:52Z")
I’ve started a [separate thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=396907) on acceptable material for nitpick discussions, since it is a question of grave import to the whole world of fangeekery, not limited to SW. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sw-nitpick-on-age-of-jedi-recruits/380944/23 "2006-11-19T22:21:01Z")
The answer to your question, without bringing in the other materials, is “because those were the rules the Jedi order was operating under at the time”. But I imagine you already knew that. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sw-nitpick-on-age-of-jedi-recruits/380944/24 "2006-11-19T22:27:34Z")
[QUOTE=Chronos] The answer to your question, without bringing in the other materials, is “because those were the rules the Jedi order was operating under at the time”. But I imagine you already knew that. [/QUOTE] I guessed that – after all, in the second trilogy, the Jedi order no longer existing, Obi-Wan and Yoda would have been justified in considering its old rules negotiable – but it seemed to me there must have been some important **reason** for those rules, perhaps hinted at but never **adequately** explained in the films. ---
**Author:** ![cranston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@cranston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cranston)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sw-nitpick-on-age-of-jedi-recruits/380944/25 "2006-11-19T22:29:25Z")
[QUOTE=MGibson] Organizations often adhere to rules simply out of tradition and without much thought going into why they do what they do. I agree, it is nasty, and I think part of the downfall of the Jedi was that they seperated themselves from everyone else. They arrogantly put themselves above everyone else. Marc [/QUOTE] They lost me when Alec Guinness blithely said: ‘So you see, what i told you was the truth, from a certain point of view’. No it wasn’t you stinking blue transparent ghost! I would have gone over to the Sith like a shot after that Clintonite doublespeak. ---
**Author:** ![robardin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@robardin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robardin)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sw-nitpick-on-age-of-jedi-recruits/380944/26 "2006-11-20T01:56:19Z")
[QUOTE=DataZak] A non-Darth-titled Sith is just a Dark Side practitioner, I think. Again in the EU there were many Force sensitive individuals who followed the Dark Side but didn’t have the Darth in their names since they were neither master nor apprentice. Most famous, I think, was Asajj Ventress from the Clone Wars cartoons. [/QUOTE] Oh yeah… I did see that. And Iwondered at the time what her ambitions would be in “climbing the ladder”. Seeing as how embracing the Dark Side is linked with aggression and a lust for power, is the goal of any given Dark Jedi to one day supplant the Sith Lord’s apprentice and take his place, just as it is the assumed goal of said apprentice to one day displace the Big Dog? And how is there a Sith hierarchy at all? Given the original temptation of the Dark Side, you’d think it’d be more of an every-Sith-for-himself attitude. When Darth Vader said to Luke, “You underestimate the power of the Dark Side… I _must_ obey my Master”, what exactly does he mean? ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sw-nitpick-on-age-of-jedi-recruits/380944/27 "2006-11-20T02:52:55Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] I guessed that – after all, in the second trilogy, the Jedi order no longer existing, Obi-Wan and Yoda would have been justified in considering its old rules negotiable – but it seemed to me there must have been some important **reason** for those rules, perhaps hinted at but never **adequately** explained in the films. [/QUOTE] Actually, I think the reason is pretty straightforward. They wanted to control the recruit’s every movement and thought, to prevent the slightest hint of the Dark Side. As it happened, it didn’t work. Dooku ran straight into the arms of Sidious, Anakin (who had seen only a little bit of the outside world) eventually fell into Palpatine’s clutches, and Luke (who had seen a lot) did pretty well. The EU further describes several others who left the order or fell into the Dark Side. While such a method is probably good at keeping overt Dark Side influences out, it would be very vulnerable to repeated temptation. Simply put, once their idea about the universe is breached, the Jedi have nothing to fall back on. They have no reason to actually help people except rote duty. If they forget or despise (Dooku) that duty, or their judgement about is confused (Anakin), they have nothing to fall back on. Simply put, the Jedi have no emotional reason to give a flying flip about anyone or anything - which, ironically, Yoda has been pushing. Palpatine was surely most pleased. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sw-nitpick-on-age-of-jedi-recruits/380944/28 "2006-11-20T02:58:16Z")
[QUOTE=robardin] Oh yeah… I did see that. And Iwondered at the time what her ambitions would be in “climbing the ladder”. Seeing as how embracing the Dark Side is linked with aggression and a lust for power, is the goal of any given Dark Jedi to one day supplant the Sith Lord’s apprentice and take his place, just as it is the assumed goal of said apprentice to one day displace the Big Dog? [/quote] Dark Jedi /= Sith. Sith have history, codes, tradition. Dark Jedi are just your average, run-of-the-mill evil Force users. To be a Dark Jedi in the service of a Sith would mean some level of training but not the teaching of any kind of Sith secrets. That said, while Sith and Dark Jedi tend to show a lot of difference in their minor goals, it’s pretty safe to assume they all want to be the ultimate power. And if there happens to be someone ostensibly on your side in the way… well, sucks to be them. > [@](#): > > And how is there a Sith hierarchy at all? Given the original temptation of the Dark Side, you’d think it’d be more of an every-Sith-for-himself attitude. When Darth Vader said to Luke, “You underestimate the power of the Dark Side… I _must_ obey my Master”, what exactly does he mean? For one thing, Sith aren’t stupid; they know that if they don’t pass on their history and secrets, they’ll be lost. And while they want to be the ultimate power, a lot of the time they’re not so foolish as to think there’s no chance of failure. And there’s a showing off aspect, too; arrogance isn’t exactly unheard of with Sith. And for the apprentice, there’s the learning of hidden power and techniques, as well as the bettered ability to stage a coup d’etat and take over their master’s organisation entirely. They also have the protection of a more powerful person… for a while. But as to Darth Vader’s “must obey” thing.. I’m honestly not sure. It’s fair to say that the Emperor was suspicious of him (more so than usual, anyway), so he might have given Vader a strict talk on the perils of deserting his service or his plans for torturing Luke if he didn’t comply. Delving into the EU, for Force users the Dark Side is very tempting, and difficult to give up… think of it as a drug. After so many years of the Force equivalent of heroin, coming off of it would be very difficult for Vader. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sw-nitpick-on-age-of-jedi-recruits/380944/29 "2006-11-20T03:29:29Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] The Jedi do have to get the parent’s permission for the kid to be trained. And once they’re a Jedi Knight, they’re not forbidden to go see their parents; it’s just frowned on. It’s essentially a sort of more stringent boarding school. [/QUOTE] That makes some sense. What sticks in my craw is that Jedi are in for life and forbidden to marry. No doubt they’re free to resign from the order, but so is any Moonie or Scientologist, if you know what I mean. In medieval Europe a child’s family could turn him over to a monastery as an “oblate,” destined for monkhood upon reaching adulthood – and there was **no** resigning once you took your vows. In some reforming periods, some Church officials tried to redress this raging injustice by decreeing no oblate could be compelled to take the final vows without his consent; but even then, there must have been immense moral pressure applied to dissuade you from leaving, and under the circumstances you knew your family wasn’t going to be overjoyed to see you coming back. ---
**Author:** ![DataZak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ea666f/32.png) [@DataZak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DataZak)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sw-nitpick-on-age-of-jedi-recruits/380944/30 "2006-11-20T04:31:55Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] That makes some sense. What sticks in my craw is that Jedi are in for life and forbidden to marry. No doubt they’re free to resign from the order, but so is any Moonie or Scientologist, if you know what I mean. [/QUOTE] I’m not sure when they agreed on the “no sex” rule. Jedis in the EU (in stories that took place a millenia before Yoda was even born) had partners and spouses. I think the reasoning was that if you had no one in your life, you wouldn’t need to worry about them when you’re off on a mission. Worry leads to fear, fear leads to anger, anger leads to the Dark Side yada yada yada. Ben Kenobi and Yoda probably realised this was the wrong way after what happened to Anakin. There was a web cartoon (I think it was _Shortpacked_) that had Yoda advising Luke to go get laid before he goes looking for Vader. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2006, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sw-nitpick-on-age-of-jedi-recruits/380944/31 "2006-11-20T04:52:50Z")
[QUOTE=DataZak] I’m not sure when they agreed on the “no sex” rule. Jedis in the EU (in stories that took place a millenia before Yoda was even born) had partners and spouses. I think the reasoning was that if you had no one in your life, you wouldn’t need to worry about them when you’re off on a mission. Worry leads to fear, fear leads to anger, anger leads to the Dark Side yada yada yada. Ben Kenobi and Yoda probably realised this was the wrong way after what happened to Anakin. There was a web cartoon (I think it was _Shortpacked_) that had Yoda advising Luke to go get laid before he goes looking for Vader. [/QUOTE] [Ed McMahon] You are correct, sir! [/E McM] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sw-nitpick-on-age-of-jedi-recruits/380944.md?page=1)