# Swamp Thing from Muskogee! Rightard Pride Week! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 9, 2004, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swamp-thing-from-muskogee-rightard-pride-week/259042 "2004-08-09T16:19:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swamp-thing-from-muskogee-rightard-pride-week/259042/61 "2004-08-10T06:17:53Z")
Gays are oppressed, I’m straight. Women are oppressed, I’m a guy. People of color are oppressed, I’m white. Latinos are oppressed, I’m Anglo Ugly people are oppressed, and I’m stunningly handsome. I wish I’d know all this earlier in my life, I could have started feeling bad a lot sooner. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swamp-thing-from-muskogee-rightard-pride-week/259042/62 "2004-08-10T06:19:20Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > You know (yes, I know I said I was leaving. Just cleaning up a few loose ends, or in this loose screws), I’d really like to see a show of hands…okay, posts…as to who here really and truly believes this. So come on, speak up. No long dissertations, no qualilfications or hedging, just a simple answer: Does anyone other than this idiot think I would deny rights to gays? You are the conformist who believes in the concept of ‘normal’ and I’m the idiot? You wouldn’t deny, you just wouldn’t help. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swamp-thing-from-muskogee-rightard-pride-week/259042/63 "2004-08-10T06:22:11Z")
I don’t, based on your posts. Some Dopers get a little hysterical at times. However, I don’t agree with all your points, either. True, violence and reverse bigotry are bad, too, but being silent will never your rights guaranteed in this system of government. Speaking out is the way to do it. But, not being militant or violent. That just alienates the middle ground. You can be firm for your interests without being a dickweed. That goes for anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swamp-thing-from-muskogee-rightard-pride-week/259042/64 "2004-08-10T06:24:23Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > Okay, well, this is just about it for me. You’ve lost all perspective. > > In the first place, if he said contact with gays would give you purple hair would that make it so? This makes no sense. Make it so? What? I’m not worried that if Coburn says enough lies about gays they’ll suddenly come true. I’m just concerned about the lying part. > [@](#): > > In the second place, _get real!!!_ > > al-Qaeda is a threat to our _safety_, not our freedoms. Oh, come on. That’s hair splitting. The idea that terrorism is a threat to our freedoms has been a constant mantra of the right… hell, of _both_ sides, everyday since 9/11. No way in hell was Coburn not aware of that when he made that statement. No chance. > [@](#): > > I’m not going to allow myself to inadvertently get manuevered into taking up for Coburn, but yours is an utterly ridiculous assertion. He did not say gays were worse than al-Qaeda, and that’s all there is to it. And as a matter of fact, it’s this kind of ridiculous bullshit that brought me into this thread in the first place. Go ahead, keep this silly kind of shit up and see what kind of credibility you have when you’re trying to convince someone of the need to get rid of someone like Coburn. I don’t think I’m being ridiculous at all. I think that’s an absolutely legitimate interpretation of his words. Anyone else reading this, am I wrong? Is that not an obvious, or at least plausible, subtext to that statement? > [@](#): > > So I guess that since this is the same kind of shit that brought me in here in the first place, it seems now appropriate as a good reason to leave. Rave on, see what good it does you. :dubious: Well, shit, I don’t want to drive you from the thread. Assuming you check back here, I’ll ask again: what would your reaction be if someone accused you, or a group with which you identify, as being the biggest threat to American freedom today? How would you respond to such an allegation? What would be the _productive_ thing to do? Ignore it? Let the libel slide, even though you know that there’s a good chance a lot of people will believe him? ---
**Author:** ![mic84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@mic84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mic84)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swamp-thing-from-muskogee-rightard-pride-week/259042/65 "2004-08-10T06:24:44Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Well, what would those “more productive means” be, then? A political candidate has just called you the biggest threat to freedom in the world. How do _you_ respond to that? Duh. Vote for him. He’s a Republican, hence a lot better at understanding the nature of the threats to the Nation and fending them off. Isn’t national security _your_ biggest concern? All this bile and hatred coming from the left disgusts me. I’m not defending homophobic politicians, though. I’d do it for every Republican. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swamp-thing-from-muskogee-rightard-pride-week/259042/66 "2004-08-10T06:34:09Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > And anyway, what’s wrong with those of us who care passionately about our rights blowing off some steam about the rabid rantings of a jackass that would eradicate us all if given the chance? If that’s all it was, blowing off steam on a message board, then fine. But the trouble is, it carries over into day to day life, and in my opinon has a deleterious effect on the gay rights struggle. > [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > And think about this: Gay folks will do the deciding on what tactics are productive or counterproductive. Not well-meaning but clueless outsiders. I disagree. If it weren’t for us well-meaning and clueless outsiders, there would only be hate-filled gays vs. hate-filled bigots, and guess who’d lose out there? It is with those such as me where the battle is fought and won. > [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > So, please, don’t pat us on the head and tell us everything will turn out all right if we’ll just tone it down a little, okay? Well, my friend…I’m disappointed in you. I would never have thought that _you_, of all people, would say something like this to me. You know damn good and well I’m not patting anyone on the head, and I’m not condescending to anyone either! The fact that you (and again, _you_, of all people) would look at my words this way shows me that further discourse here is a total waste of time. > [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > I am NOT going to give his venomous bile a free pass. Please show me where anything I said could possibly be construed as telling you to give him a free pass! I expect this kind of thing from the likes of certain others, but not from you. (Just goes to show what I’ve long observed: that emotion and intellect are truly not one and the same.) It seems that your perception can be distorted, and you can read things into posts that aren’t there just like anyone else. Bummer. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swamp-thing-from-muskogee-rightard-pride-week/259042/67 "2004-08-10T06:39:29Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > If that’s all it was, blowing off steam on a message board, then fine. But the trouble is, it carries over into day to day life, and in my opinon has a deleterious effect on the gay rights struggle. Well, my dear, I’ve run out of cheeks to turn (I was only born with four). After the kind of bullshit this fellow is putting out (as AIDS czar, for Pete’s sake), if the worst he gets is a couple of kvetching queens on his tail, he should count himself lucky. Do forgive me if I get angry after someone goes out of his way to shit all over me. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swamp-thing-from-muskogee-rightard-pride-week/259042/68 "2004-08-10T06:50:30Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > This makes no sense. Make it so? What? I’m not worried that if Coburn says enough lies about gays they’ll suddenly come true. I’m just concerned about the lying part. It means that just because he says it, it doesn’t make it so. And I don’t believe a very significant part of the population, probably not even one percent, view gays, or would come to on his word, as being a greater threat than al-Qaeda. > [@Miller](#): > > Well, shit, I don’t want to drive you from the thread. Assuming you check back here, I’ll ask again: what would your reaction be if someone accused you, or a group with which you identify, as being the biggest threat to American freedom today? How would you respond to such an allegation? What would be the _productive_ thing to do? Ignore it? Let the libel slide, even though you know that there’s a good chance a lot of people will believe him? Well, as you can see, I haven’t left yet. And to tell you the truth, I don’t know how I’d react. But I damn sure would hope I wouldn’t read into the words of someone who’s on my side and wants to see good things happen for me the kind of bullshit I’ve come in for here; and I would hope that I didn’t misread and misinterpret virtually everthing they say, and get pissed off at them despite, in some cases, a personal knowledge of my true character (you listening, **ETF**?); and I would hope I didn’t develop an insular us-vs.-them mentality where I believed that no one suffering from the same grievances as I had any right or ability to say or offer anything of value because they couldn’t possibly know. ---
**Author:** ![Lilairen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lilairen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lilairen)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swamp-thing-from-muskogee-rightard-pride-week/259042/69 "2004-08-10T06:56:39Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > Please show me where anything I said could possibly be construed as telling you to give him a free pass! Well, the whole telling calm people with reasonable objections that they’re frothing militants thing certainly gave _me_ that impression. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swamp-thing-from-muskogee-rightard-pride-week/259042/70 "2004-08-10T06:58:52Z")
You know, **Starving Artist** , you seem to be the one who’s doing the over-reacting here. I’m serious. There’s nothing in this thread that’s much more than a “Fuck you too, buddy!” and you’re carrying on like we’re sending death threats to his children. I think we’ve got some pretty fundamental differences in perception, and I’d be curious to see you quote what exactly you see as particularly “agressively hostile and hate-filled.” Preferably something from before your first posting in here, but I won’t hold you to that limitation. > [@Starving Artist](#): > > You know damn good and well I’m not patting anyone on the head, and I’m not condescending to anyone either! I don’t think you’re doing it intentionally, but there is an element of condescension in telling people who have been intimatly, personally involved in gay rights activism (And lord knows, I’m not one of them. This thread is about as activist as I get.) how best to be an activist. Yes, you are (in theory) their target audience, but you are not the _whole_ of their audience. What’s _your_ experience in agitating for civil rights, off of which you base the advice you’ve given in this thread? > [@](#): > > The fact that you (and again, _you_, of all people) would look at my words this way shows me that further discourse here is a total waste of time. Please show me where anything I said could possibly be construed as telling you to give him a free pass! What would you recommend as an alternative? What would be, in your view, a _proper_ response to what he said? _What would **you** do?_ > [@](#): > > I expect this kind of thing from the likes of certain others, but not from you. (Just goes to show what I’ve long observed: that emotion and intellect are truly not one and the same.) It seems that your perception can be distorted, and you can read things into posts that aren’t there just like anyone else. Are you sure this problem in perception is not perhaps on _your_ end, and not ours? If **EddyTeddyFreddy** has so totally misinterpreted you, maybe it’s because you’re not expressing yourself very well. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swamp-thing-from-muskogee-rightard-pride-week/259042/71 "2004-08-10T06:59:46Z")
Starving Artist: Why haven’t you actually left yet? You thought we needed more tired platitudes from someone who feels superior and put upon by the minority? I’d use the Anne Robinson line, but it is _so_ 2001. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swamp-thing-from-muskogee-rightard-pride-week/259042/72 "2004-08-10T07:13:09Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > It means that just because he says it, it doesn’t make it so. That didn’t make any sense the first time you said it. I’m not any more enlightened this time around. Look, if someone says, “Gays are Godless, hell-bound sinners,” that’s offensive. No one’s worried that if he says it three times it’s suddenly going to come true. Gays are not like Beetlejuice. > [@](#): > > And I don’t believe a very significant part of the population, probably not even one percent, view gays, or would come to on his word, as being a greater threat than al-Qaeda. I don’t think _he_ believes it, either. It’s obviously hyperbole. But it’s hateful, evil, bigotted hyperbole. If a guy says “Black people are dumber than dirt,” he’s not literally proposing that Africans can be outwitted by a clump of sod. That doesn’t make the underlying sentiment any less insulting. And there’s a significant part of the population that eats that shit up with a spoon. > [@](#): > > Well, as you can see, I haven’t left yet. And to tell you the truth, I don’t know how I’d react. But I damn sure would hope I wouldn’t read into the words of someone who’s on my side and wants to see good things happen for me the kind of bullshit I’ve come in for here; and I would hope that I didn’t misread and misinterpret virtually everthing they say, and get pissed off at them despite, in some cases, a personal knowledge of my true character (you listening, ETF?); and I would hope I didn’t develop an insular us-vs.-them mentality where I believed that no one suffering from the same grievances as I had any right or ability to say or offer anything of value because they couldn’t possibly know. Wow. And _we’re_ the ones over-reacting? Maybe you really should stop posting for a while. At least for tonight. Get some sleep, or something, because you seem to be really freaking out over very little here. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swamp-thing-from-muskogee-rightard-pride-week/259042/73 "2004-08-10T07:19:21Z")
Just for the record, **Starving Artist** , I don’t think you’re a bigot, or a homophobe, or evil, or oppressive, or stupid, even. I just don’t think you’ve got a clue what you’re talking about. But I don’t think you’re a bad person because of it. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swamp-thing-from-muskogee-rightard-pride-week/259042/74 "2004-08-10T07:34:11Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > And _we’re_ the ones over-reacting? Maybe you really should stop posting for a while. At least for tonight. Get some sleep, or something, because you seem to be really freaking out over very little here. Well, I just spent a lot of time answering your previous post–you know, the one just before that stupid bird starting its tinny chirp–and the hamsters just ate it! So yeah, I’m _damn_ puffed! 😃 But do try to remember that the things you’re referring to above that appear to be an over-reaction are really just an attempt on my part to condense most of what I’ve come in for here into just a paragraph or two. That, and as I’ve said, I’ve been knocked somewhat for a loop by some of **ETF** ’s posts. She has been a good friend for a long time, and I really wasn’t expecting some of the things I heard out of her. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swamp-thing-from-muskogee-rightard-pride-week/259042/75 "2004-08-10T07:36:52Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Just for the record, **Starving Artist** , I don’t think you’re a bigot, or a homophobe, or evil, or oppressive, or stupid, even. Well, that’s your prerogative, of course. > [@Miller](#): > > I just don’t think you’ve got a clue what you’re talking about. But I don’t think you’re a bad person because of it. Thanks…I think. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swamp-thing-from-muskogee-rightard-pride-week/259042/76 "2004-08-10T07:39:30Z")
Damn, I think you’re right! I do need sleep! That “prerogative” line goes after the part where you erroneously call me clueless, and before the brilliantly perceptive part about my not being a bad person. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swamp-thing-from-muskogee-rightard-pride-week/259042/77 "2004-08-10T07:40:35Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > But do try to remember that the things you’re referring to above that appear to be an over-reaction are really just an attempt on my part to condense most of what I’ve come in for here into just a paragraph or two. That, and as I’ve said, I’ve been knocked somewhat for a loop by some of **ETF** ’s posts. She has been a good friend for a long time, and I really wasn’t expecting some of the things I heard out of her. Well, if she’s such a good friend, maybe you should listen to her. If what she’s saying is upseting you, maybe it’s because what you’re saying is upseting _her_. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swamp-thing-from-muskogee-rightard-pride-week/259042/78 "2004-08-10T07:44:56Z")
Maybe so. Thanks. Now I think I really will go. No…I mean it, _really_! Good night. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![SolGrundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@SolGrundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolGrundy)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swamp-thing-from-muskogee-rightard-pride-week/259042/79 "2004-08-10T08:01:30Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > And think about this: Gay folks will do the deciding on what tactics are productive or counterproductive. Not well-meaning but clueless outsiders. I’ve got to call bullshit on that. As soon as everybody thinks that this only affects gay people, we’re all _fucked_. Because then you have everybody acting only out of self-interest and leaving everything up to the majority to decide. And then anyone who’s different – for whatever reason – gets trampled on. What’s counter-productive is treating people like because they don’t have a personal stake in the issue, they don’t know what the hell they’re talking about. And on the flip side, what’s counter-productive is leaving or threatening to leave the argument because you don’t like what’s being said. It takes backbone to weather a discussion to make sure you’re hearing both sides of it and making your own point clear, just as it takes backbone to try and see who your real enemy is instead of lashing out at everybody who you think _just might_ be disagreeing with you. And for the record, **Miller** ’s right – I’m still confused at how anything in this thread has been “venomous bile and hatred.” Y’all seriously think that this is extremist rhetoric? You haven’t been paying near enough attention. Here are some toned-down samples from both sides: 1. Homosexuality is a sin and a perversion. 2. Everyone opposed to gay rights is secretly a homosexual. 3. You chose to indulge yourself in gay behavior, so now you’ve got to pay the consequences. 4. _All_ marriage is an outdated religious institution and should be abolished. 5. Things would be easier if we could just wipe out all the homosexuals. 6. There’s no such thing as being 100% heterosexual. Anyone who claims he is repressed and in denial. It’s all bullshit. Why do people feel like they need to add more shit to the mix? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swamp-thing-from-muskogee-rightard-pride-week/259042/80 "2004-08-10T08:26:49Z")
Sol, I’m going to try to make this quick as the cutoff approaches. Part of my post to **Miller** which got eaten was to acknowledge that prior to my first post, things really weren’t all that heated. Most of the bile and vitriol came about in subsequent posts which were pretty much in response to what I’d said or was perceived to have said. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swamp-thing-from-muskogee-rightard-pride-week/259042.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swamp-thing-from-muskogee-rightard-pride-week/259042.md?page=5)