# Sweden do-nothing approach good, US/UK/other countries' early do-nothing approach bad. Why?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-do-nothing-approach-good-us-uk-other-countries-early-do-nothing-approach-bad-why/850962
**Category:** The Quarantine Zone
**Tags:** covid-quarantine
**Created:** [April 3, 2020, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-do-nothing-approach-good-us-uk-other-countries-early-do-nothing-approach-bad-why/850962 "2020-04-03T14:44:16Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 22
### Author:  [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)
#### Post date: [June 14, 2020, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-do-nothing-approach-good-us-uk-other-countries-early-do-nothing-approach-bad-why/850962/421 "2020-06-14T15:13:55Z")
> [@Telperion](#):
>
> There are several reasons for it. One is that the Swedish side of Öresundsbron, where Malmö is, has significantly lower rates of coronavirus infection than the Danish side. Another is that the Norwegian government wants tourists from Norway to be able to visit Gotland, but not the other way around. And the authorities on Gotland aren’t overly keen on being bombarded by tourists this year since they have a very low contagion rate so far and not an overly large hospital capacity for visitors. The problem with treating countries as monolithic entities is that is misses a great deal of nuance.
Given the number of nations out there, clarity of message my be much more important than nuance. However, by opening to Gotland, Norway did show nuance and did not treat Sweden as a monolithic entity.
The problem there I think, is that the bordertowns and shops along the Norwegian borders are the areas of Sweden most dependent of the Norwegian trade by far. Its basically the nasty realization that other countries not opening their borders to Sweden because of high infection rates is going to hit the economy harder than a lockdown would have.
---
### Author:  [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)
#### Post date: [June 14, 2020, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-do-nothing-approach-good-us-uk-other-countries-early-do-nothing-approach-bad-why/850962/422 "2020-06-14T16:44:20Z")
Sweden is worst in world when it comes to rolling 7 day average of deaths per million:
> **[Infographic: The Countries Currently Worst Hit By COVID-19 Deaths](https://www.statista.com/chart/21844/daily-new-covid-19-deaths-7-day-rolling-avg/)**
>
> This chart shows the countries with the highest rolling 7-day averages for new COVID-19 deaths per million people.
---
### Author:  [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)
#### Post date: [June 14, 2020, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-do-nothing-approach-good-us-uk-other-countries-early-do-nothing-approach-bad-why/850962/423 "2020-06-14T18:06:56Z")
> [@asahi](#):
>
> Let’s just say I’m skeptical of “It’s just a bad flu. It’s not really that bad. Sweden’s smart - you’ll see in the end” propaganda.
>
> Accept facts, mate. Sweden’s response has failed spectacularly. The only reason it doesn’t have a spectacularly high number of coffins stacked one on top of the other is because it’s a sparsely populated country.
What are you babbling about? That has nothing to do with the post you responded to.
---
### Author:  [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)
#### Post date: [June 14, 2020, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-do-nothing-approach-good-us-uk-other-countries-early-do-nothing-approach-bad-why/850962/424 "2020-06-14T18:22:12Z")
> [@Babale](#):
>
> Sweden is worst in world when it comes to rolling 7 day average of deaths per million:
>
> [Chart: The Countries Currently Worst Hit By COVID-19 Deaths | Statista](https://www.statista.com/chart/21844/daily-new-covid-19-deaths-7-day-rolling-avg/)
Ouch. Still, one of those times when I’m glad not to say “We’re #1!”
---
### Author:  [@Telperion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telperion)
#### Post date: [June 15, 2020, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-do-nothing-approach-good-us-uk-other-countries-early-do-nothing-approach-bad-why/850962/425 "2020-06-15T08:50:57Z")
> [@Grim\_Render](#):
>
> Given the number of nations out there, clarity of message my be much more important than nuance. However, by opening to Gotland, Norway did show nuance and did not treat Sweden as a monolithic entity.
>
> The problem there I think, is that the bordertowns and shops along the Norwegian borders are the areas of Sweden most dependent of the Norwegian trade by far. Its basically the nasty realization that other countries not opening their borders to Sweden because of high infection rates is going to hit the economy harder than a lockdown would have.
Yeah yeah, it’s super easy to trivialize the problems of other people. Let’s see if I can put this in term’s you’ll comprehend. Imagine that Canada shuts down the border and unilaterally decides that Canadian tourists are still allowed to go to Nantucket. That seems like a good idea to you?
---
### Author:  [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)
#### Post date: [June 15, 2020, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-do-nothing-approach-good-us-uk-other-countries-early-do-nothing-approach-bad-why/850962/426 "2020-06-15T09:25:51Z")
> [@Telperion](#):
>
> There are several reasons for it. One is that the Swedish side of Öresundsbron, where Malmö is, has significantly lower rates of coronavirus infection than the Danish side. Another is that the Norwegian government wants tourists from Norway to be able to visit Gotland, but not the other way around. And the authorities on Gotland aren’t overly keen on being bombarded by tourists this year since they have a very low contagion rate so far and not an overly large hospital capacity for visitors. The problem with treating countries as monolithic entities is that is misses a great deal of nuance.
Are we taking rates of coronavirus infection as ‘over the course of the pandemic’ or as ‘new cases right now’? Because I see from the per-county data on the Wikipedia page that Skane (which I presume is mostly Malmo cases) looks to be having its peak now, rather than back in April as Stockholm did. So going off current rates would give very different results to cumulative ones
I also note that Sweden is currently reporting a 9% deaths-per-detected-infection rate, whereas Denmark’s is 5%. This argues to me, unless Sweden has been particularly bad at the actual care of coronavirus victims, that Denmark is probably close to twice as good at detecting cases. That should probably also be factored into any comparisons too.
---
### Author:  [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)
#### Post date: [June 15, 2020, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-do-nothing-approach-good-us-uk-other-countries-early-do-nothing-approach-bad-why/850962/427 "2020-06-15T09:30:55Z")
> [@Babale](#):
>
> Sweden is worst in world when it comes to rolling 7 day average of deaths per million:
>
> [Chart: The Countries Currently Worst Hit By COVID-19 Deaths | Statista](https://www.statista.com/chart/21844/daily-new-covid-19-deaths-7-day-rolling-avg/)
That info is a little outdated now. South America has been surging ahead in the deaths-per-day stakes, and according to divoc the top three world leaders are now Chile, Peru, and Brazil.
---
### Author:  [@Telperion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telperion)
#### Post date: [June 15, 2020, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-do-nothing-approach-good-us-uk-other-countries-early-do-nothing-approach-bad-why/850962/428 "2020-06-15T09:48:12Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#):
>
> Are we taking rates of coronavirus infection as ‘over the course of the pandemic’ or as ‘new cases right now’? Because I see from the per-county data on the Wikipedia page that Skane (which I presume is mostly Malmo cases) looks to be having its peak now, rather than back in April as Stockholm did. So going off current rates would give very different results to cumulative ones
>
> I also note that Sweden is currently reporting a 9% deaths-per-detected-infection rate, whereas Denmark’s is 5%. This argues to me, unless Sweden has been particularly bad at the actual care of coronavirus victims, that Denmark is probably close to twice as good at detecting cases. That should probably also be factored into any comparisons too.
Here are the statistics from yesterday, with 2270 confirmed cases for Scania. They don’t update until 2 PM, so it will have to do. Meanwhile, [Region Hovedstaden](https://news.google.com/covid19/map?hl=sv&mid=/m/07knc0&gl=SE&ceid=SE:sv) on the Danish side has 6887 confirmed cases according to the most recent numbers I was able to find, so pretty much three times as many. Even if they are better at detecting cases, that is a big difference.
---
### Author:  [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)
#### Post date: [June 15, 2020, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-do-nothing-approach-good-us-uk-other-countries-early-do-nothing-approach-bad-why/850962/429 "2020-06-15T10:03:50Z")
Having a look … they must be cumulative cases. Because Denmark has only had about 12,000 cases in total, over the whole pandemic. So if new infections in Region Hovedstaden are going down (I don’t know if they are, but Denmark as a whole is going down for new infections/deaths) and Malmo itself is near its peak, then the Denmark side could easily be getting fewer new daily cases right now, and a border closure would make sense as a strategy
---
### Author:  [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)
#### Post date: [June 15, 2020, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-do-nothing-approach-good-us-uk-other-countries-early-do-nothing-approach-bad-why/850962/430 "2020-06-15T11:18:47Z")
> [@Telperion](#):
>
> Yeah yeah, it’s super easy to trivialize the problems of other people. Let’s see if I can put this in term’s you’ll comprehend. Imagine that Canada shuts down the border and unilaterally decides that Canadian tourists are still allowed to go to Nantucket. That seems like a good idea to you?
I actually have no idea what you are trying to say. I get a feeling that you are aggrieved at something, but your comment does not clarify what.
The Norwegian institute of public health, _Folkehelseinstituttet_, did in fact do an individual review of all the regions of Sweden, Denmark, Finland and Iceland. You can see the criteria they used, and the results [here](https://www.fhi.no/nettpub/coronavirus/fakta/reiserad-knyttet-til-nytt-koronavirus-coronavirus/), by expanding the “_Regioner og kriterier_” section.
This sort of illustrates my initial point from posting the issue here; there does not seem to be any comprehension in Sweden of why the decision was made. They are wittering about “the impact on Nordic region cooperation” and things on a similar level. They do not at all seem to grok the seriousness of the COVID issue to their Nordic neighbors.
Its not just that it seems that their perspective is different, but that trying to understand the perspective of the countries surrounding them is somehow regarded as letting the side down.
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### Author:  [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)
#### Post date: [June 15, 2020, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-do-nothing-approach-good-us-uk-other-countries-early-do-nothing-approach-bad-why/850962/431 "2020-06-15T13:18:48Z")
> [@CarnalK](#):
>
> What are you babbling about? That has nothing to do with the post you responded to.
Oh, but it does, too.
Sweden is in total denial about how badly they have screwed up their response.
Other countries don’t want Swedes coming into their territory, and Sweden can’t understand why, which boggles the mind.
---
### Author:  [@Didactylos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Didactylos)
#### Post date: [June 15, 2020, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-do-nothing-approach-good-us-uk-other-countries-early-do-nothing-approach-bad-why/850962/432 "2020-06-15T14:20:37Z")
> [@Telperion](#):
>
> Here are the statistics from yesterday, with 2270 confirmed cases for Scania. They don’t update until 2 PM, so it will have to do. Meanwhile, [Region Hovedstaden](https://news.google.com/covid19/map?hl=sv&mid=/m/07knc0&gl=SE&ceid=SE:sv) on the Danish side has 6887 confirmed cases according to the most recent numbers I was able to find, so pretty much three times as many. Even if they are better at detecting cases, that is a big difference.
Danmarks Radio, the national public service tv/radio-station, looked into this canard, which some danish politicians has raised:
> **[Detektor: Skåne, Halland og Blekinge er hårdere ramt af coronavirus lige nu](https://www.dr.dk/nyheder/detektor/detektor-skaane-halland-og-blekinge-er-haardere-ramt-af-coronavirus-lige-nu)**
>
> Men der er stadig ikke belæg for at holde grænsen lukket, fastholder Lars Løkke Rasmussen.
The page is in danish, but to summarize:
The comparison is between all of Sjælland (Sj) and Skåne/Halland/Blekinge (SHB) from 26. may to 4. june:
Newly diagnosed positive:
Sj 14/100.000 pop
SHB 35/100.000 pop
- and Denmark tests more than Sweden, so the real difference is probably even bigger
Number of people hospitalized:
Sj 3/100.000 pop
SHB 6/100.000 pop
Number of people in ICU:
Sj 14/2.7 million
SHB 21/1.9 million
- southern Sweden has about double the number per capita
The doctors and immunologists they interviewed also stated, that though there was no doubt the rate of infection in southern Sweden at that time was higher than in eastern Denmark, it wasn’t alarmingly so. But the problem is you can’t selectively open only for people from southern Sweden.
---
### Author:  [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)
#### Post date: [June 15, 2020, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-do-nothing-approach-good-us-uk-other-countries-early-do-nothing-approach-bad-why/850962/433 "2020-06-15T15:22:23Z")
> [@CarnalK](#):
>
> What are you babbling about?
**Moderator Warning**
Someone who is just back from suspension should be a bit more careful. This is an official warning for being a jerk.
Colibri
Quarantine Zone Moderator
---
### Author:  [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)
#### Post date: [June 16, 2020, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-do-nothing-approach-good-us-uk-other-countries-early-do-nothing-approach-bad-why/850962/434 "2020-06-16T19:01:20Z")
> [@asahi](#):
>
> Sweden is in total denial about how badly they have screwed up their response.
No. No we’re not.
I could write a lengthy reply, but since I don’t have the patience to read the whole thread, let me at least assure you that we’re horrified about what’s happened in the different facilities for the elderly. Especially in Stockholm but in other places as well.
Why that has happened will be a matter of study and punditry for years to come. I have my own thoughts, but those are worth exactly nil, so I won’t bother.
---
### Author:  [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)
#### Post date: [June 17, 2020, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-do-nothing-approach-good-us-uk-other-countries-early-do-nothing-approach-bad-why/850962/435 "2020-06-17T11:34:41Z")
Today, Sweden announced that Swedes may travel to a number of European nations such as Spain, Italy and France. Norway and Denmark was not on the list.
While the border between Norway and Finland is open, Finland today noted that Norwegians who travel through Sweden will not be admitted and that Norwegians have to either fly to Finland or cross the Norwegian-Finnish border.
---
### Author:  [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)
#### Post date: [June 23, 2020, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-do-nothing-approach-good-us-uk-other-countries-early-do-nothing-approach-bad-why/850962/436 "2020-06-23T14:22:18Z")
> **[Sweden Tries Out a New Status: Pariah State (Published 2020)](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/22/world/europe/sweden-coronavirus-pariah-scandinavia.html)**
>
> Fearing the country’s lax approach to combating the coronavirus, Sweden’s Scandinavian neighbors have all closed their borders to Swedes.
> "We will miss the Swedes this year,” said [Ole Evenrud](http://www.hitsville.no/people/ole.html), a Norwegian pop star who goes under the stage name “Ole i’Dole,” or Ole the Idol, and is a regular performer at the festival in Halden, a Norwegian border town. “But I’m OK with the borders being closed. We have been pretty clever about the way we handled corona.”
>
> Swedish officials, including the architect of the country’s measures to stop the spread of the coronavirus, Anders Tegnell, are not amused. They say Swedes have been stigmatized by an international campaign to prove Sweden was wrong and warn their neighbors that they are going to be much more vulnerable if a second wave of the virus hits in the fall.
> . . .
> Experts in the other Scandinavian countries say the higher immunity levels have not been proven through rigorous testing, and that such talk misses a major point.
>
> “When you see 5,000 deaths in Sweden and 230 in Norway, it is quite incredible,” said Gro Harlem Brundtland, a former prime minister of Norway and the former director of the World Health Organization, during [a digital lecture](https://www.dnva.no/detskjer/2020/04/se-opptak-global-solidaritet-i-pandemien) at the Norwegian Academy of Science and Letters in May. “It will take a lot to even out this difference a year or two into the future.”
Sweden is not welcome in many of the neighboring countries. That has caused some Swedes to rethink their coronavirus strategy. The approval rating for Sweden’s handling of the coronavirus has declined since April.
---
### Author:  [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2020, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-do-nothing-approach-good-us-uk-other-countries-early-do-nothing-approach-bad-why/850962/437 "2020-06-24T18:25:37Z")
> [@Charlie\_Tan](#):
>
> No. No we’re not.
>
> I could write a lengthy reply, but since I don’t have the patience to read the whole thread, let me at least assure you that we’re horrified about what’s happened in the different facilities for the elderly. Especially in Stockholm but in other places as well.
>
> Why that has happened will be a matter of study and punditry for years to come. I have my own thoughts, but those are worth exactly nil, so I won’t bother.
To give an alternative opinion from someone that lives here and is also a citizen:
Sweden is in total denial about how badly they have screwed up their response.
Tegnell still has approval rating of 60%. A man whose list of things he has got comically wrong is as long as my arm and growing, who even now is saying that he doesn’t believe other countries have managed to achieve what they have because, basically, if you have screwed up the easiest strategy to not look as bad is to make everyone else look as bad, if not worse.
Yet he still has an approval rating of 60%.
If you discuss it with people they will still 100% defend the strategy. they are still throwing in the unironic “well Sweden took the scientific approach” whilst still not realising how monumentally inaccurate and insulting it is. This whole palaver has shown the arrogance of Swedes, something that any foreigner here is well acquainted with, for all the world to see.
---
### Author:  [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)
#### Post date: [June 25, 2020, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-do-nothing-approach-good-us-uk-other-countries-early-do-nothing-approach-bad-why/850962/438 "2020-06-25T13:20:09Z")
Here are some stories of some foreigners who were enchanted with Sweden until the coronavirus and now have become disenchanted enough to be thinking about moving.
> **[Sweden’s handling of coronavirus drives some people to...](https://theworld.org/stories/2020-06-12/sweden-s-handling-coronavirus-drives-some-people-relocate)**
>
> Foreign residents in Sweden are reconsidering life in the Nordic country as a result of its light-handed approach to the COVID-19 pandemic.
> [@](#):
>
> Eva Panarese, from Italy’s Tuscany, used to dream about moving to Sweden. Her mother, who is Swedish, would recount stories about her home country when she was little.
> . . .
> But in late February, things changed. By then, countries across Europe were grappling with the novel coronavirus, closing their borders and heading into lockdown. But in Sweden, little changed. That lax response to the pandemic has led some foreigners, including Panarese, to rethink life in Sweden — some have even chosen to relocate.
> . . .
> Panarese worried she might have contracted the virus during her trip and passed it on to her family. As her son’s condition improved, Ripoli got worse, and he was taken to hospital. It was here that Panarese became truly alarmed. No one in the hospital was wearing a mask, she says, and nobody offered them a test for COVID-19.
>
> “They didn’t know what to do. They didn’t know how to help us. They did not want to do the test — not on me because I was asymptomatic, which I can understand — but not even on my husband.”
>
> Swedish shops, restaurants, gyms and schools remained open.
>
> For Panarese, it created a dilemma. Under Swedish law, children are [obliged](https://www.newsweek.com/swedish-parents-teachers-say-theyre-being-forced-risk-childrens-health-due-mandatory-class-1504035)to go to school, and keeping them home can lead to intervention by child protection services. But Panarese’s own children were terrified they would contract the virus at school and infect their father.
>
> Keith Begg from [Limerick, Ireland](https://www.ireland.com/en-us/destinations/republic-of-ireland/limerick/limerick-city/), moved to Stockholm for love seven years ago. As the virus spread, Begg heard from family members back home about the [strict lockdown](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-ireland-breakingvi/breakingviews-irish-eyes-keep-smiling-despite-a-strict-lockdown-idUSKBN23512M) Ireland was undertaking. Irish friends told him they felt a moral obligation to shut down the country in order to protect their elderly and more vulnerable people.
> . . .
> Begg believes the Swedish government’s strategy is driven primarily by economics, and the result, he says, is a society which is both “morally and ethically bankrupt.”
> . . .
> Allyson Plumberg, who’s originally from Minneapolis, and her family have also been sheltering in place in Lund.
>
> At first, Plumberg says she loved the simplicity of life in Sweden with its strong emphasis on [family-friendly](https://www.unicef.org/press-releases/sweden-norway-iceland-and-estonia-rank-highest-family-friendly-policies-oecd-and-eu)policies. But she says the pandemic has shown her a different side of Swedish society.
> . . .
> When Plumberg and her two small children go to the local grocery store, they are often met with stares, she says. They are the only customers wearing face masks.
These are a few stories about how it felt to be in Sweden and the lived experience of dealing with coronavirus fears when others around don’t agree. Parents afraid to send their children to school but left no choice, sick people not getting tested or treated. Most people featured in the article are planning to relocate.
---
### Author:  [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)
#### Post date: [June 25, 2020, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-do-nothing-approach-good-us-uk-other-countries-early-do-nothing-approach-bad-why/850962/439 "2020-06-25T15:12:34Z")
> [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](#):
>
> The approval rating for Sweden’s handling of the coronavirus has declined since April.
Can you name many leaders whose approval rating has gone up since then? Or are as high?
Yes approval of leadership there has fallen … to the mid 60s from low 70s. [Elsewhere](https://morningconsult.com/form/europe-polling-trump-coronavirus-response/) Modi in India is apparently highly approved (?!), Morrison in Australia too. Merkel and Trudeau not _too far_ behind Swedish levels. Johnson, Trump, Marcon, Abe … all underwater. Finland’s leader (noted in another thread) now says that knowing what they know now they probably didn’t need to close schools.
That said, current still fairly high approval, “a few stories” of those with disapproval, neither really inform too much as to what will be the end result after all is said and done.
Meanwhile a story to share about two first time triathletes. Before the race they were debating if it was better to swim harder and get a lead out of the water, or to swim slower betting that they’d, as a result, do better on the bike and the run portions enough to catch up and pass the friend with similar skills and training. They each committed to their strategies. Race day! On swim split the first one is pretty far ahead. The second one’s swim split is worse than he had planned on even. Only possible conclusion is of course that the second one fucked up. The End.
---
### Author:  [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)
#### Post date: [June 25, 2020, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-do-nothing-approach-good-us-uk-other-countries-early-do-nothing-approach-bad-why/850962/440 "2020-06-25T16:55:36Z")
> [@DSeid](#):
>
> Can you name many leaders whose approval rating has gone up since then? Or are as high?
[…Jacinda Ardern.](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/01/jacinda-ardern-and-her-government-soar-in-popularity-during-coronavirus-crisis)
Just a reminder that New Zealand’s economy is back open again, we have no requirement for social distancing, nobody is wearing masks, the only thing that is closed are our borders. We don’t have to wait months to figure out that our strategy was more effective than Sweden’s in both 1) saving lives and 2) getting back to normal again. The evidence for that is pretty crystal clear.
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