# Sweden do-nothing approach good, US/UK/other countries' early do-nothing approach bad. Why?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-do-nothing-approach-good-us-uk-other-countries-early-do-nothing-approach-bad-why/850962
**Category:** The Quarantine Zone
**Tags:** covid-quarantine
**Created:** [April 3, 2020, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-do-nothing-approach-good-us-uk-other-countries-early-do-nothing-approach-bad-why/850962 "2020-04-03T14:44:16Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 40
### Author:  [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2020, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-do-nothing-approach-good-us-uk-other-countries-early-do-nothing-approach-bad-why/850962/782 "2020-12-20T12:49:00Z")
> [@casdave](#):
>
> So, to keep this a little on the thread topic - why is it that you claim to know more about events in Sweden and the policies therof than a native of that nation who is on the spot, has access to all the broadcast and printed media in that nation - whereas you are not native to that nation, cannot speak or read Swedish and seem somehow to believe that you have more insight than @Amanset - if nothing else it is extremely discourteous to fail to acknowledge that poster’s much more direct and personal knowledge of the situation if their own country?
Just to be clear, in case anyone claims I am pretending to be something I am not, I am not a Swedish native. I am a naturalised Swede that has lived here for over two decades. Originally I come from the UK. So I am a citizen of two countries that have had a genuinely terrible response to COVID-19, but for rather different reasons.
---
### Author:  [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2020, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-do-nothing-approach-good-us-uk-other-countries-early-do-nothing-approach-bad-why/850962/783 "2020-12-20T13:11:15Z")
> [@SayTwo](#):
>
> For an opposing point of view, you may wish to consider this recent opinion piece:
>
> [https://www.theaustralian.com.au/commentary/personal-liberty-sacrificed-at-the-altar-of-covid-public-safety/news-story/158ba49b6b01bdf2ab70dbceac3974b5](https://www.theaustralian.com.au/commentary/personal-liberty-sacrificed-at-the-altar-of-covid-public-safety/news-story/158ba49b6b01bdf2ab70dbceac3974b5)
>
> > The prevailing image of disaster and catastrophe — journalist Garry Linnell says Sweden has been “ravaged” — is sensationalist rubbish, reflecting poor numeracy, poor vocabulary or perhaps a desire to promote what I call health fascism.
>
> The ‘poor numeracy’ part is the one that rings truest to me. That’s at the very heart of the misguided, even if well intentioned, response we’ve seen the world over. And it’s certainly no stranger on these boards. No stranger at all.
The problem with that article that it makes the mistake that so many do, it concentrates on deaths only as if that is the only metric. We all surely know by now the dangers of “Long Covid”. From lung scarring to amputations, the dangers of having COVID but surviving it are well documented.
But even then, Sweden’s deaths right now are bad. Their total deaths don’t look as bad because they more or less disappeared over the summer. The daily peaks now, which are still rising as registrations are often delayed, are not far off what they were in April and May.
Note: this is confused right now as in April/May Sweden was announcing deaths daily, but now they only do it on a handful of days a week. This means many graphs, like Google’s default, show higher spikes that in the Spring. I tend to use the charts on Dagens Nyheter’s live blog, which you can find here:
> **[Följ DN:s direktrapportering om coronapandemin](https://www.dn.se/sverige/det-nya-coronaviruset-folj-utvecklingen-live/)**
>
> I direktrapporteringen uppdaterar DN löpande om coronapandemin.
Scroll down to “Avlidna i Sverige per dygn”. On that chart they add the deaths on to the actual day of death, rather than leaving it on the day the death was registered. For today the chart is entirely black as no figures were announced today. On days where they do announce deaths they add them to the chart in red so you can see how far back they are adding deaths on. It really can be as long ago as two weeks previously.
One VERY interesting thing they have on the same page, just a little bit further down, is the “Antal nya bekräftade fall i Europa dag för dag”. That’s the number of new cases in europe, day to day. You can choose between totals (“Antal fall”) and cases per 100,000 (“Fall per 100,000 inv”). Right now, the most up to date chart is from yesterday (19th December). From that you can see that in Europe the only countries doing worse than Sweden (873/100,000) are:
Lithuania (1359)
Croatia (1109)
Serbia (946)
Turkey (1430)
Every single other country, including the headline grabbers of the UK, Spain, Italy and Belgium, have a lower infection rate than Sweden. That isn’t “poor numeracy”. Those are the numbers. Those are facts.
---
### Author:  [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2020, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-do-nothing-approach-good-us-uk-other-countries-early-do-nothing-approach-bad-why/850962/784 "2020-12-20T13:25:10Z")
I missed the edit window. The end of that post should be this:
From that you can see that in Europe the only countries doing worse than Sweden (873/100,000) are:
Turkey (1430)
Lithuania (1359)
Croatia (1109)
Luxembourg (1072)
Slovenia (973)
Serbia (946)
San Moreno (928)
Montenegro (928)
As you can see, several of those are tiny city states. And most of the rest are Balkan states, not known for their healthcare system and infrastructure.
Every single other country, including the headline grabbers of the UK, Spain, Italy and Belgium, have a lower infection rate than Sweden. That isn’t “poor numeracy”. Those are the numbers. Those are facts.
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### Author:  [@FigNorton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FigNorton)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2020, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-do-nothing-approach-good-us-uk-other-countries-early-do-nothing-approach-bad-why/850962/785 "2020-12-20T13:29:09Z")
> [@amanset](#):
>
> The problem with that article that it makes the mistake that so many do, it concentrates on deaths only as if that is the only metric. We all surely know by now the dangers of “Long Covid”. From lung scarring to amputations, the dangers of having COVID but surviving it are well documented.
So what is Sweden’s current amputation count?
---
### Author:  [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2020, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-do-nothing-approach-good-us-uk-other-countries-early-do-nothing-approach-bad-why/850962/786 "2020-12-20T13:31:35Z")
This is an interesting article from today:
> **[As Covid death toll soars ever higher, Sweden wonders who to blame](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/20/as-covid-death-toll-soars-ever-higher-sweden-wonders-who-to-blame)**
>
> With the death toll expected to rise over Christmas, the country asks who will take responsibility for the flawed approach
It covers what I mentioned yesterday, how the media has been complicit in this, actively going out of its way to shout down anyone that dares criticise the Swedish response.
I am personally of the opinion that Tegnell needs to be sacked. Not resign, be sacked. I don’t accept the argument that “I might look like a figurehead but agencies in are very much working as a whole. This isn’t something I decide alone in my office every morning.”, Tegnell was the man who chose his words when he was being interviewed or holding press conferences. Tegnell repeatedly offered up personal predictions that time and time again proved to be wrong.
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### Author:  [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2020, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-do-nothing-approach-good-us-uk-other-countries-early-do-nothing-approach-bad-why/850962/787 "2020-12-20T13:34:56Z")
> [@FigNorton](#):
>
> So what is Sweden’s current amputation count?
I don’t know. From what I understand lung issues are far more common. I mentioned it as I thought it might resonate with the Americans reading, seeing as the White House Security Director has had part of his leg amputated.
ETA:
To make it clear, I was offering the range of complications that don’t involve death. I am becoming increasingly frustrated by people and media outlets that concentrate on deaths alone. But again, EVEN THEN, Sweden’s death count is bad.
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### Author:  [@FigNorton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FigNorton)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2020, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-do-nothing-approach-good-us-uk-other-countries-early-do-nothing-approach-bad-why/850962/788 "2020-12-20T13:38:11Z")
Well, there’s approximately 185,000 amputations every year in the United States. Do you think covid will contribute to that figure significantly?
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### Author:  [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2020, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-do-nothing-approach-good-us-uk-other-countries-early-do-nothing-approach-bad-why/850962/789 "2020-12-20T13:40:08Z")
I’m not going to bother getting into speculating about American amputations. I was offering a range of serious complications that are well documented. **The point was that using death as the only metric of success or failure is wrong**.
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### Author:  [@FigNorton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FigNorton)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2020, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-do-nothing-approach-good-us-uk-other-countries-early-do-nothing-approach-bad-why/850962/790 "2020-12-20T13:44:30Z")
So give us the metric on Swedish amputations. Or lung scarring. Because everyone always says that we should talk about that but really, they don’t. It’s usually used merely as a tactic when the death count argument isn’t going right. So tell me, how is covid affecting the number of amputations or of people with permanent lung scarring?
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### Author:  [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2020, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-do-nothing-approach-good-us-uk-other-countries-early-do-nothing-approach-bad-why/850962/791 "2020-12-20T13:56:03Z")
As I have said multiple times, the death count is still bad in Sweden. It is flattered by the quiet summer, where most people retreated to the countryside. Now the death rate is very close to what it was in the first wave. I live in a, frankly, small city where 3000 people have died.
But to be absolutely honest, we don’t have the stats right now, mainly because the healthcare system is overrun. But if you want a short radio report to listen to, here’s this:
> **[Call on government to do more for 'long Covid' patients - Radio Sweden](https://sverigesradio.se/artikel/7602906)**
>
> Approximately 150 000 people are thought to be experiencing long-term Covid-19 symptoms in Sweden according to one estimate, but there are no ...
- Approximately 150 000 people are thought to be experiencing long-term Covid-19 symptoms in Sweden according to one estimate, but there are no specialists to diagnose them.
- There are now calls for research funding for ‘long Covid’ patients and multi-disciplinary clinics.
- “We have not learned enough about this and the patients are being left on their own” says Åsa Kristoferson Hedlund, who has suffered with Covid symptoms for eight months.
You are demanding stats that we don’t have because we don’t have a healthcare system that can handle the current situation. All we know is that it is happening and estimates are rather high for “Long Covid”. And, as you can see from the quotes above, these people feel very much as if they are being ignored. A bit like the articles that concentrate on deaths alone.
And with that I am going to go have a very late lunch. So don’t take me not replying as a sign of anything.
ETA:
To make this really clear: The fact that we don’t have the stats **is the entire point**. In all the worries about deaths alone those suffering with the long term effects are being ignored.
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### Author:  [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2020, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-do-nothing-approach-good-us-uk-other-countries-early-do-nothing-approach-bad-why/850962/792 "2020-12-20T13:57:57Z")
> [@SayTwo](#):
>
> Here you can look at another viewpoint some of you seem likely to dismiss out of hand. It’s from a doctor in Sweden
Most of what he says has been discussed in this thread. First off, I’ll say that this doctor’s predictive abilities are not very good. This is [what he said](https://sebastianrushworth.com/2020/08/04/how-bad-is-covid-really-a-swedish-doctors-perspective/) in August 2020.
> [@](#):
>
> Basically, covid is in all practical senses over and done with in Sweden. After four months.
Now he’s saying that because his assessment of the situation is similar to that of March/April and things went back down again, the government doesn’t need to do anything this time either.
The people went along with what the government did in March/April and many suffered for it. The doctor surmises that the politicians are trying to boost their poll numbers.
> [@](#):
>
> Why the change in tone from the Swedish government during November and December?
>
> If one were cynical, one might think it was due to the fact that the governing Social Democrats received a big boost to their opinion ratings in April and May, in the usual “rally around the flag” fashion seen when a nation faces some type of crisis, but since then they have been polling worse month on month. Maybe they saw their polling numbers, panicked, and hoped that they would get a boost in the polls if they could appear more assertive. Or maybe they’ve just capitulated to international pressure to “get in line”.
Or maybe they just don’t want to see as many people suffering or dying as happened in March/April.
> [@SayTwo](#):
>
> Here’s the response to that, from Dr Rushworth in the report linked above:
I agree with his assessment that Sweden has the lowest hospital capacity of any country in the area. That was discussed early in the thread. If it’s true that they’ve lowered the standards to admit people into the ICU so that more people might live, that seems like a good thing to me. Increasing the standards to get into ICU and letting people die seems like a bad thing to me.
> [@SayTwo](#):
>
> And if you do, how do you factor that into an assessment of Sweden’s ‘epic fail’ response, given that they managed to protect their children in this regard?
First, weird article. It says that the reason that US schools closed is because of strong teacher’s unions and that European countries have weak unions so they were forced to open. Having teachers’ unions that protect the well-being of teachers seems like a good thing to me.
On Sweden’s schools, there’s not much that has been studied about them. I found a couple articles. But it’s hard to compare how they’re doing because not much is written about them. Based on this article, they practice social distancing, national testing is cancelled and there seems to be a hybrid model of remote learning and in-classroom learning.
> [@](#):
>
> “We have separated the classes and keep them distanced from each other. They have their own home classrooms, while we teachers come to them. Each grade has school in three different buildings,” says Liss.
>
> The split classes mean that learning is also divided – between being in the classroom and learning remotely. This is an arrangement that can be challenging for teachers to manage, Isaksson says, though she believes that it has also forced her to reflect on her practice.
Individual school districts have shut down and high schools and colleges have been shut down for the duration of the pandemic.
> [@](#):
>
> ## What happens if there is an outbreak?
>
> The school where Isaksson and Liss teach is open for now, but it is not the case that every single school in Sweden has remained open throughout the pandemic. If there is an outbreak of Covid-19, individual schools can be closed where necessary.
>
> “It is the municipality that decides if the school must shut down and send the students home. If that should happen, we must have distance education. We cannot just let the students stay home without education,” says Liss.
>
> Upper secondary schools (which students attend for three years between the ages of 16 and 19) are an exception here; these schools have been closed since the start of the crisis.
In many ways, it doesn’t sound all that different than the US response.
> **[Have Swedish schools really carried on as normal?](https://www.tes.com/magazine/archive/have-swedish-schools-really-carried-normal)**
>
> Sweden’s response to the Covid-19 pandemic has brought challenges for schools - but also benefits, say teachers
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### Author:  [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2020, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-do-nothing-approach-good-us-uk-other-countries-early-do-nothing-approach-bad-why/850962/793 "2020-12-20T14:09:25Z")
> [@SayTwo](#):
>
> They have been candid about their failings all along, in particular with regard to protecting their most vulnerable populations in the beginning – which I might add, though it is beside the point, stands out as almost literally unique in the world, which is something I for one have great respect for.
They have appeared to be candid whilst maintaining essentially the same damn policies. That’s not really acting in the spirit of candor, then.
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### Author:  [@SayTwo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SayTwo)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2020, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-do-nothing-approach-good-us-uk-other-countries-early-do-nothing-approach-bad-why/850962/794 "2020-12-20T16:49:34Z")
Thanks for posting that article from TES. I hadn’t seen it, or anything like it, and I found it enlightening. I’m glad to see they haven’t simply refused to make any changes and ignored all threats, which it wouldn’t surprise me if some believed.
I guess what I would take away from it all is that the most meaningful contrast between nations and their approaches, in terms of the effects their efforts have had and will have on children, is what they assume as their default states. It seems clear in the case of Sweden that they’d have to see serious reason to _not_ stay open. If European countries ‘were forced to open’ and US schools have managed to avoid that fate, they seem to have come at it from the opposite angle.
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### Author:  [@Tfletch1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tfletch1)
#### Post date: [December 21, 2020, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-do-nothing-approach-good-us-uk-other-countries-early-do-nothing-approach-bad-why/850962/795 "2020-12-21T01:06:16Z")
> [@FigNorton](#):
>
> So give us the metric on Swedish amputations. Or lung scarring. Because everyone always says that we should talk about that but really, they don’t. It’s usually used merely as a tactic when the death count argument isn’t going right. So tell me, how is covid affecting the number of amputations or of people with permanent lung scarring?
If you’re truly interested, you can read this Vox article as a starting point to do some research on long term effects of Covid. Since the virus infects so many cells, the damage can happen in several body systems. Lung damage has even been reported in people who were asymptomatic. Cognitive decline is a major lingering effect. Myocarditis, deep vein thrombosis, strokes, hypogonadism, etc. These effects sometimes last for several months.
> **[The many strange long-term symptoms of Covid-19, explained](https://www.vox.com/22166236/long-term-side-effects-covid-19-symptoms-heart-fatigue)**
>
> Long Covid "is a phenomenon that is really quite real and quite extensive," Anthony Fauci said.
---
### Author:  [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)
#### Post date: [December 21, 2020, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-do-nothing-approach-good-us-uk-other-countries-early-do-nothing-approach-bad-why/850962/796 "2020-12-21T12:53:09Z")
> [@SayTwo](#):
>
> I’m glad to see they haven’t simply refused to make any changes and ignored all threats, which it wouldn’t surprise me if some believed.
Your attempt at contrarianism leads you down some blind alleys and into some internal contradictions. You started out saying that Sweden keeping schools open was a success, but are now saying that closing certain schools shows flexibility. Your narrative is not cohesive.
In [other news](https://www.thelocal.se/20201220/sweden-to-ban-travel-from-the-uk-over-new-covid-strain), Sweden is banning the UK from travel into Sweden due to the new strain of coronavirus in the UK.
> [@](#):
>
> Sweden will join a growing list of countries to ban travel from the UK over concerns of a new Covid strain, the Swedish government confirmed on Sunday.
>
> The Swedish government is expected to formally make the decision on Monday, but Interior Minister Mikael Damberg confirmed to [public broadcaster SVT](https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/sverige-stoppar-resor-fran-storbritannien) that it will “come into force as soon as possible”.
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### Author:  [@FigNorton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FigNorton)
#### Post date: [December 21, 2020, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-do-nothing-approach-good-us-uk-other-countries-early-do-nothing-approach-bad-why/850962/797 "2020-12-21T14:14:48Z")
I am aware these are happening, some of them quite serious. But I think a lot of it is stuff that we’d probably see in other diseases if they were studied this intently. I mean would it really shock you if men hospitalized for any number of infections had low testosterone? And " between 10 percent and 88 of Covid-19 patients will experience at least one symptom for many weeks or months" covers a whole lot of ground.
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### Author:  [@Tfletch1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tfletch1)
#### Post date: [December 21, 2020, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-do-nothing-approach-good-us-uk-other-countries-early-do-nothing-approach-bad-why/850962/798 "2020-12-21T16:49:04Z")
As I said, if you were genuinely interested in the topic, you would use that article as a starting point and at least look through the sources within. It would give you a better perspective and perhaps a different opinion than, “if other infections were studied this much”. If not, then I don’t feel the need to further engage.
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### Author:  [@FigNorton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FigNorton)
#### Post date: [December 21, 2020, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-do-nothing-approach-good-us-uk-other-countries-early-do-nothing-approach-bad-why/850962/799 "2020-12-21T16:54:36Z")
This isn’t the thread to engage on that anyway. I would appreciate if you didn’t assume I haven’t looked into this at all. I don’t need that article as a “starting point”.
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### Author:  [@SayTwo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SayTwo)
#### Post date: [December 21, 2020, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-do-nothing-approach-good-us-uk-other-countries-early-do-nothing-approach-bad-why/850962/800 "2020-12-21T17:22:58Z")
> [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](#):
>
> Your attempt at contrarianism leads you down some blind alleys and into some internal contradictions. You started out saying that Sweden keeping schools open was a success, but are now saying that closing certain schools shows flexibility. Your narrative is not cohesive.
Blanket closures themselves don’t show flexibility, and you know that. I am happy to maintain that Sweden’s stance of keeping schools open if at all possible is absolutely a more successful policy than the one that keeps them closed as long as it possibly can – which has been a catastrophic failure everywhere it’s been tried.
Once again, anything remotely approaching nuance seems often lost in here. All or nothing, and it you’re not with us you’re against us, is how it comes across. I think you want to paint Sweden’s approach as being entirely hands-off (easier to argue against?), but that simply has not been the case. Good on 'em, if they’ve found a way to target local outbreaks and nip them in the bud with temporary school closures, the same way schools in many places have historically done with other diseases. That’s _not_ the same thing as blanket closures, or abandoning their strategy of minimizing disruption to the education and quality of life of their youth.
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### Author:  [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)
#### Post date: [December 21, 2020, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-do-nothing-approach-good-us-uk-other-countries-early-do-nothing-approach-bad-why/850962/801 "2020-12-21T21:18:45Z")
> [@SayTwo](#):
>
> Good on 'em, if they’ve found a way to target local outbreaks and **nip them in the bud** with temporary school closures, the same way schools in many places have historically done with other diseases.
Well that’s certainly a take for the country with one of the worst daily new infection rates in Europe.
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