:: squints as the goalposts have moved yet again ::
…most of life is going on mostly as normal throughout the great majority of the country here in NZ. Only Auckland is Alert Level 3. I’m at Alert Level 2.
Have you been listening to anything I’ve been telling you either in this thread or the numerous other threads about covid where we have interacted?
There have been numerous cases of community transmission that didn’t result in any interruptions at all. And they didn’t result in any interruptions because the chain of transmission was quite clear.
We have only escalated like this three times since the original Level 4 lockdown. And two of those times were related to this very outbreak.
You are simply wrong here.
The epidemiological principles that are foundational to the policies are the same. The science doesn’t change.
If you actually understood the policies that have been implemented you would see more commonalities than differences.
From the earlier cite the people in Hai Duong Province are required to stay at home unless for essential purposes. In NZ at Alert Level 3 the requirement isn’t to stay at home but to stay in your household bubble. There are no curfews, you can go for walks and even attend a wedding (of less than 10 people. Both approaches are based on the same epidemiological principles: isolate people to both identify and break the chains of transmission.
What is different, though, is that there are, or have been, ‘hotspots’ in various other areas of Vietnam, including the two major cities, that have not resulted in these kinds of restrictions. (What they have resulted in is short-term school closures and closures of certain non-essential businesses, largely to include entertainment venues and street cafes.)
…what you are missing is that (as I’ve already explained to you) we also have had hotspots in Auckland, Wellington and Christchurch of community transmission that didn’t result in these kinds of restrictions either. We didn’t escalate for the Rydges Hotel case. We didn’t escalate for the marine engineer case in October. We didn’t escalate for the retail worker in November. We didn’t escalate for the Pullman Hotel cases.
We did escalate for the Americold outbreak because we couldn’t isolate the chain of transmission and that chain ultimately lead to over a hundred cases and two deaths. And we have escalated in this case because this person didn’t isolate for nearly a week when they should have isolated and because we can’t track down the initial source of transmission. We aren’t shutting down every time we get a community transmission.
I wasn’t giving an opinion. I was updating people. Mainly because I see a lot of ill-informed views and dubious misrepresentation outside Sweden about what is going on here. You can see it with certain posters in this thread.
I find it interesting as the narrative for a year now has been Sweden’s relaxed attitude to all this (I mean, look at the thread title), but in reality over the past couple of months or so they have been edging more towards what all the other countries have been doing. Mask mandates (although sadly pretty much unenforceable), closed schools, closed or vastly reduced business hours (we recently went back to no alcohol for sale after 8pm and all restaurants, bars and cafés closed by 8:30pm), discussion in parliament for the strongest lockdown measures they can enforce with the current constitution (basically they can do the same as other countries except force people to stay in their homes).
The philosophical argument in favor of state/local control and management in response to a national emergency has gone up in smoke. That won’t stop people from believing what they want of course.
Sorry, I know it’s a thread about Sweden, not the US, but since the topic of 'Merikuh came up…
…my apologies: I wasn’t making any commentary on what you said. I only quoted you to contrast the argument that SayTwo has consistently pushed in this thread: that somehow statistics from June 2020 about school closures are somehow relevant to Sweden’s overall handling of the pandemic. I forgot that it would tag you in
It’s just not a thorough, mature, and sober analysis of respective countries’ approaches to the pandemic if it doesn’t include societal issues beyond merely deaths. These are worrying signs out of New Zealand, suggesting some of its people may be turning on each other.
At a press briefing on Monday afternoon, Ardern said breaking the rules was unacceptable and that those who had done so were “facing the full judgement of the entire nation”.
And there appears to be direct encouragement of said judgment, even within families:
“That is why I am asking everyone, now more than ever, to continue to back and support one another, and if that means calling a family member or work colleague out for not following the rules, then we should do that.”
I just worry how long a society can keep that kind of thing up without it turning into a situation that ultimately doesn’t help anybody. And when it gets to be a blame game, then all kinds of other issues raise their heads, like this one:
But Manukau ward councillor Fa’anana Efeso Collins told Stuff that the burden of New Zealand’s coronavirus response was now being shouldered by South Auckland communities, without adequate engagement or support.
“I can see we’re slowly moving into the post-kindness phase, where instead of being a team of 5 million, we are hearing that people just need to be compliant,” he said.
When a team, whether it’s a team of five million or just five, stops playing for each other and starts asking what’s in it for them, that team usually starts to perform poorly. You know what they say, that winning is the best deodorant. So as long as New Zealand continues its undefeated season, maybe those concerns will never truly materialize. It might be a long year, though.
…one minute you didn’t want to talk about New Zealand at all.
Nek minute: why aren’t we talking about New Zealand? Why aren’t we taking a thorough, mature, and sober analysis of New Zealand? Hey, look at New Zealand!!! They have zombies roaming through the streets!!!
Pivot. Pivot. Pivot.
Have you ended your call to not talk about New Zealand here in this thread? Or do I have your permission to speak now?
Yep. I’m roaming through the streets this very moment, looking for other New Zealanders to turn into the authorities. Its the fucking wild wild west here folks!
I mean that’s hardly a call for the secret police don’t ya think? Telling your uncle to “put your mask on” isn’t really that much of a burden.
Well you don’t have to worry about this society. We are doing just fine. We kept Covid out. And we kept the death toll as low as humanly possible. We lost 26 people. Every death an individual tragedy. But at least we had time to mourn those deaths. If we had listened to you: if we had followed the likes of Sweden or heaven forbid the US or the UK, the death toll would have been in the thousands.
So stop worrying about us. The media beat-up will be over in a few days, the alert levels will drop and we will go back to normal. Worry about your own backyard.
You don’t have the faintest clue what the team of five million people have done over the last year. Every time I’ve bought it up with you you’ve instantly dismissed it.
So now all of a sudden you are onboard the New Zealand train? You weren’t convinced by the low death toll, the gold standard trace and isolation, the managed isolation facilities, the rebound of our economy, the fact that we’ve been able to essentially live our lives as normal for the last year?
None of that convinced you?
But now, after a year of working together to keep the virus out and our whanau alive, a few people get grumpy and it makes headlines, that was what turned you around?
Well welcome to the team of Five Million. It took you long enough. Hope you enjoy the veal.
I was looking up information on long covid and stumbled across this report from Sweden on long covid. Over 200 children in Sweden’s capital have been diagnosed with long term covid. While the rate of children dying from covid might not be high, there’s the possibility of long term covid affecting some of them.
And whilst we are talking about children. Remember how FHM were basing their “plan” around kids not getting infected because reasons and that being the main argument for keeping schools open?
Well apparently loads of kids are now getting infected in schools. Fingers are being pointed at the recent half term where loads of families went to ski resorts.
Google Translate for the beginning of the article:
FHM: Do not know why so many school outbreaks occur
UPDATED TODAY 17: 16Published TODAY 15:51
The Swedish Public Health Agency does not know why so many outbreaks are taking place in schools in Sweden right now, says Britta Björkholm, head of department at FHM, to SVT Nyheter.
One is aware of the regions’ reports, but sees no trend nationally.
I know that the schools and regions work intensively to investigate these outbreaks, she says.
A number of regions have sounded the alarm that the infection is spreading rapidly in schools in the country. At a school in Västerbotten, 50 students were infected in one week, something SVT Nyheter was able to report on yesterday.
At the same time, it is difficult to see whether there has been an increase in infection in the country’s schools in general. This is because the Swedish Public Health Agency has no systematic collection of the number of outbreaks.
We have no figures on that, but we also hear that the regions are investigating school outbreaks and even outbreaks in preschools. But whether they represent a real increase or whether this is a reflection on the spread of infection throughout society, we do not yet know, says Britta Björkholm.
This is why I didn’t understand how people (not you amanset, just using your post for information purposes) could hold up Sweden’s decision to open schools as the model without more information. There hasn’t been information that I’ve seen from Sweden that it’s safe for children except for really small studies with limited dates.
Beyond the children getting ill, there is also the community transmission aspect that needed to be taken into account.
And now long covid for children. All those factors need to be taken into account.
Early in the pandemic, I noted that a big loss to Sweden would be if many of the citizens lost faith in the government. Some of that seems to have happened if this article is accurate.
Some of the people who were advocating for stricter pandemic measures in the early days of the pandemic were also subject to hate mail and ugly threats and insults. Some of them are seeing this as turnabout.
Performing a bit of necromancy to report this “wonderful” news.
Is there anyone left that thinks Sweden has been anything else other than a disaster?
I did like this bit:
“However, while both infections and ICU patients have surged, Sweden’s death toll has so far not risen so sharply, a trend the national health agency said was due to many of the most vulnerable, particularly care home residents, now being vaccinated.”
I see they left of the crucial “or dead” at the end.
I saw a chart a few days ago in a story that was about the global overview of current cases with similar numbers for Sweden and honestly wondered if I didn’t actually understand the data shown because the numbers were just so incredibly high for Sweden.
Many of us who were calling the Swedish experiment a mistake (Sweden Fucked Up!) early on were told that we should reserve final judgement until Spring. Well, we’re now 1 month into Spring and vaccines are pretty readily available to the richer countries, so I think it’s fair to start judging now. Unlike Tegnell, I don’t consider Belgium a reasonable proxy for Sweden, so I’ll compare them to their Nordic neighbors. Note that all numbers are relative to population for fairness.
One issue that it seemed they did understand well was social distancing and I believe that helped them from performing even worse than they did. While they sucked ass at mask wearing (Thanks Anders!), they did seem to agree that distancing oneself was worthwhile.
So, in retrospect, “Sweden Fucked Up!” and is still suffering for it to this day, and we should not emulate them (nor they themselves) in future pandemics of this nature. In their defense, they were certainly not alone. The U.S., the U.K. and many other countries fucked up as well, but typically due to inconsistencies in messaging as well as delays and waffling on restrictions and the following thereof, not due to a “do-nothing” approach.
