# Sweden: naked manga is child porn **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 26, 2010, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-naked-manga-is-child-porn/548061 "2010-07-26T15:51:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-naked-manga-is-child-porn/548061/21 "2010-07-26T22:09:06Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > Wait wait wait… > > The issue here is that it is cartoons we are talking about. If drawing pictures of under age people having sex is illegal, why isn’t it illegal to draw pictures of adult being raped? > > This is a “thought crime”. That is the problem. Or the prophet Moham…_gurk_ ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-naked-manga-is-child-porn/548061/22 "2010-07-26T22:31:24Z")
> [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](#): > > > [@Czarcasm](#): > > > > > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > > > > > Wasn’t Sweden a nation which once had legitimate child porn? I’m sure I read that somewhere, but I’m not about to start googling for the information. > > > > > > If so, you can’t say they are afraid of change! > > > > That’s rather a sleazy rumor to pass along so nonchalantly, wouldn’t you say? > > I read somewhere (maybe SDMB) that either Sweden or Denmark had no laws against child porn (to possess or produce) until the 1990’s, so thay may be what ivan astikov is referring to… In that case he knows more than I do about it. Sounds unlikely though. > [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > > [@Stoneburg](#): > > > > Wait wait wait… > > > > The issue here is that it is cartoons we are talking about. If drawing pictures of under age people having sex is illegal, why isn’t it illegal to draw pictures of adult being raped? > > > > This is a “thought crime”. That is the problem. > > Or the prophet Moham…_gurk_ Which is not illegal, only insensitive. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-naked-manga-is-child-porn/548061/23 "2010-07-26T22:32:41Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > Does this mean that a Swede in Holland who sees the[Mannekin Pis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manneken_Pis) statue can be prosecuted as a sex tourist? Anyone with vision that great must have superpowers. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-naked-manga-is-child-porn/548061/24 "2010-07-26T22:39:43Z")
This is what happens when you let overzealous morons run society. Almost everyone can be considerd a consumer of child porn if you try hard enough. You can literally accuse 100 million americans of consuming child pornography. The movies traffic or american beauty? Child porn The book Romeo & Juliet? Child porn Photos of your kids taking a bath? Child porn This is absurd. Now if someone draws a photo of a woman who is short with small tits that is child porn? I know women over 18 with small breasts and underdeveloped features. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-naked-manga-is-child-porn/548061/25 "2010-07-26T22:46:00Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > This is what happens when you let overzealous morons run society. Almost everyone can be considerd a consumer of child porn if you try hard enough. You can literally accuse 100 million americans of consuming child pornography. > > The movies traffic or american beauty? Child porn > The book Romeo & Juliet? Child porn > Photos of your kids taking a bath? Child porn > This is absurd. I agree. The constant creation of nigh but impossibilities makes little to no sense. I have yet to see a single case where a person was prosecuted, let alone convicted, for any of your “examples” of child pornography. Not a one. Yet, like the guy who mentioned Michaelangelo’s David, they get trotted out every time to try and raise the spectre of facist enforcement of the law. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-naked-manga-is-child-porn/548061/26 "2010-07-26T23:00:03Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > > [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](#): > > > > > [@Czarcasm](#): > > > > > > > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > > > > > > > Wasn’t Sweden a nation which once had legitimate child porn? I’m sure I read that somewhere, but I’m not about to start googling for the information. > > > > > > > > If so, you can’t say they are afraid of change! > > > > > > That’s rather a sleazy rumor to pass along so nonchalantly, wouldn’t you say? > > > > I read somewhere (maybe SDMB) that either Sweden or Denmark had no laws against child porn (to possess or produce) until the 1990’s, so thay may be what ivan astikov is referring to… > > In that case he knows more than I do about it. Sounds unlikely though. > > > [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > > > > [@Stoneburg](#): > > > > > > Wait wait wait… > > > > > > The issue here is that it is cartoons we are talking about. If drawing pictures of under age people having sex is illegal, why isn’t it illegal to draw pictures of adult being raped? > > > > > > This is a “thought crime”. That is the problem. > > > > Or the prophet Moham…_gurk_ > > Which is not illegal, only insensitive. True, but note how South Park was ultimately unable to mock this. > [@Yookeroo](#): > > > [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > > > Does this mean that a Swede in Holland who sees the[Mannekin Pis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manneken_Pis) statue can be prosecuted as a sex tourist? > > Anyone with vision that great must have superpowers. First Glenn Beck, now this. I’m going to bed. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-naked-manga-is-child-porn/548061/27 "2010-07-26T23:08:57Z")
Okey… but since South Park isn’t a Swedish show, and it has nothing to do with child pornography, perhaps it is a bit off topic? ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-naked-manga-is-child-porn/548061/28 "2010-07-26T23:19:55Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > I have yet to see a single case where a person was prosecuted, let alone convicted, for any of your “examples” of child pornography. Not a one. A couple in Arizona lost custody of their children for a month because of bathtub kiddie photos. Their names were put on the sex offenders registry. > **[Bath Time Photos Prompt Child Porn Allegations](https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/arizona-couple-suing-bathtime-photos-prompt-wal-mart/story?id=8624533)** > > Arizona couple A.J. and Lisa Demaree sue Walmart after a photo clerk handed over pictures they called "indecent" to authorities. The family said the photos were innocent bath time images, but the children were taken into protective custody. They didn’t get prosecuted but give it time… I’m sure such an example will prop up eventually. The USA needs a good witch hunt every now and then and child porn is as good a pretense as any. > [@](#): > > Yet, like the guy who mentioned Michaelangelo’s David, they get trotted out every time to try and raise the spectre of facist enforcement of the law. Btw, I mentioned Donatello’s David. Michaelangelo’s version of David would probably be considered too “over the hill” for the discriminating pedophile. ---
**Author:** ![misterW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@misterW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/misterW)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-naked-manga-is-child-porn/548061/29 "2010-07-26T23:23:48Z")
I would think animated/cartoon pornography should be encouraged, if anything. The more people who are satisfied with cartoon pornography, the weaker the market for the real thing. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-naked-manga-is-child-porn/548061/30 "2010-07-26T23:25:05Z")
Real child porn is illegal because it requires sexual abuse of children. Cartoon porn does not. So it shouldn’t be illegal. It’s not whether the drawings were of under age people or not that matters, it’s not whether they were pornographic that matters. It’s that they were drawings. Even if they had been drawings of infants being sexually molested, and the guy had been caught masturbating violently over them, it should not be a crime. There is no victim. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-naked-manga-is-child-porn/548061/31 "2010-07-26T23:26:19Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > I agree. The constant creation of nigh but impossibilities makes little to no sense. I have yet to see a single case where a person was prosecuted, let alone convicted, for any of your “examples” of child pornography. Not a one. Yet, like the guy who mentioned Michaelangelo’s David, they get trotted out every time to try and raise the spectre of facist enforcement of the law. > **[Reddit - The heart of the internet](https://www.reddit.com/r/WTF/comments/92imu/woman_charged_with_child_pornography_for_taking/)** [http://www.empowher.com/community/share/parents-suspected-child-pornography-taking-bath-time-photos-their-kids](http://www.empowher.com/community/share/parents-suspected-child-pornography-taking-bath-time-photos-their-kids) [http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN3026744520071030](http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN3026744520071030) It isn’t only that you ‘do’, it is that you ‘can’. Giving the courts, police, etc. so much leeway to charge whomever they want with something so serious can’t be good. I don’t support giving the police so much power over something so vague. I don’t trust the courts, law enforcement or DAs to use that kind of power wisely. Being accused of being a sex criminal is one of the most serious accusations you can make, and we are making the laws more and more vague. But if some cop is a hardass or having a bad day, or he dislikes someone, and he finds photos of them bathing their kids now he has the power to ruin that person’s life. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-naked-manga-is-child-porn/548061/32 "2010-07-26T23:29:06Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > A couple in Arizona lost custody of their children for a month because of bathtub kiddie photos. Their names were put on the sex offenders registry. I’m glad to see that the judge threw the allegations out and I hope the couple get a healthy settlement from the state for their troubles. But, once again, the fact that a law can possibly be abused by idiots isn’t, to me, a good enough reason to get rid of the law. > [@Ruminator](#): > > Btw, I mentioned Donatello’s David. Michaelangelo’s version of David would probably be considered too “over the hill” for the discriminating pedophile. I also have yet to hear of a single prosecution, yet alone conviction, for Donatello’s David either. Once again, creating outlandish examples of potential violations of a law does nothing, to convince me that the law is, in and of itself, outlandish. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-naked-manga-is-child-porn/548061/33 "2010-07-26T23:34:33Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > It isn’t only that you ‘do’, it is that you ‘can’. Giving the courts, police, etc. so much leeway to charge whomever they want with something so serious can’t be good. I don’t support giving the police so much power over something so vague. I don’t trust the courts, law enforcement or DAs to use that kind of power wisely. Being accused of being a sex criminal is one of the most serious accusations you can make, and we are making the laws more and more vague. > > But if some cop is a hardass or having a bad day, or he dislikes someone, and he finds photos of them bathing their kids now he has the power to ruin that person’s life. Just so I understand, you are advocating that we should just dump child pornography laws altogether because the law can be abused? Doesn’t that strike you as a bit … extreme. Given the wrongful murder convictions, overzealous prosecutions involving child molestation (McMartin), and other laws that get abused, shall we dump those too? ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-naked-manga-is-child-porn/548061/34 "2010-07-26T23:38:01Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Just so I understand, you are advocating that we should just dump child pornography laws altogether because the law can be abused? Doesn’t that strike you as a bit … extreme. Given the wrongful murder convictions, overzealous prosecutions involving child molestation (McMartin), and other laws that get abused, shall we dump those too? How about we dump the child pornography laws that don’t involve actual children? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-naked-manga-is-child-porn/548061/35 "2010-07-26T23:39:06Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > I also have yet to hear of a single prosecution, yet alone conviction, for Donatello’s David either. Once again, creating outlandish examples of potential violations of a law does nothing, to convince me that the law is, in and of itself, outlandish. You haven’t heard of convictions for Donatello’s David because most/all child porn laws have exceptions for artistic value. And the presence of artistic value exceptions proves that lawmakers are well aware that these laws can be abused, and wished to avoid ‘frivolous’ lawsuits based on the laws being smacked against the pillars of society and showing just how dubious the laws actually are. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-naked-manga-is-child-porn/548061/36 "2010-07-26T23:39:57Z")
If drawing a picture of child porn is child porn, and writing child porn is child porn, then is it child porn if I write that I just drew a picture containing child porn? ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-naked-manga-is-child-porn/548061/37 "2010-07-26T23:45:44Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Since the identification of victims in alleged child pornography cases is oftentimes is impossible, courts have long used expert testimony to establilsh the age of the alleged victim based on developmental standards, etc. Applying that to anime strikes me as no big deal either. So it sounds like you’re saying that you are for a _depiction_ of something illegal being itself illegal. For example, a picture of naked child is illegal, so therefor a drawing of a naked child is also illegal. Does this also mean that you think that drawings of murders, kidnappings, or drug use should be illegal? ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-naked-manga-is-child-porn/548061/38 "2010-07-26T23:46:14Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > I also have yet to hear of a single prosecution, yet alone conviction, for Donatello’s David either. Well, Donatello’s David is 600 years old. Maybe somebody in medieval times did get punished and tortured for pleasuring themselves with it. Records of such arrests might be hard to come by since the Gutenberg printing press wasn’t widely available yet. > [@](#): > > Once again, creating outlandish examples of potential violations of a law does nothing, **to** convince me that the law is, in and of itself, outlandish. Look at the word “ **to** ” in your comment. It looks like an emoticon of a boy’s head and his arm holding an adult penis! Either use a different font or a different word. Otherwise, you must face the consequences of jail time for your criminal thoughts. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-naked-manga-is-child-porn/548061/39 "2010-07-26T23:57:34Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > How about we dump the child pornography laws that don’t involve actual children? There is a much better argument for that than simply screaming “but what about Romeo and Juliet!!!”. Personally, I find that the free speech value of virtual child pornography to be so infinitesmally small that I would be willing to support a law that makes it illegal if it were narrowly written, if there were an adequate showing that it was necessary to “ensure the ability to enforce prohibitions of actual child pornography” and that there was the standard exception for artistic or scientific value. It’s certainly an arguable position, and the Supreme Court of the US has taken your side. I just disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-naked-manga-is-child-porn/548061/40 "2010-07-26T23:59:37Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > > [@Hamlet](#): > > > > I also have yet to hear of a single prosecution, yet alone conviction, for Donatello’s David either. > > Well, Donatello’s David is 600 years old. Maybe somebody in medieval times did get punished and tortured for pleasuring themselves with it. Records of such arrests might be hard to come by since the Gutenberg printing press wasn’t widely available yet. I think my point is not intricately tied to a lack of prosecution in the medieval era. > [@Ruminator](#): > > Look at the word “ **to** ” in your comment. It looks like an emoticon of a boy’s head and his arm holding an adult penis! > > Either use a different font or a different word. Otherwise, you must face the consequences of jail time for your criminal thoughts. Good point. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-naked-manga-is-child-porn/548061.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sweden-naked-manga-is-child-porn/548061.md?page=3)