# Swedish prisoner's dilemma. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 26, 2012, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swedish-prisoners-dilemma/645209 "2012-12-26T19:35:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swedish-prisoners-dilemma/645209/21 "2012-12-27T11:05:06Z")
> [@half-elf](#): > > Well, it was clear to me as soon as I started reading the OP of this thread that the “prisoner” was a metaphor for the OP’s actual life. (Not wanting for anything in a material sense, but not being/ not feeling able to change his circumstances non the less). In the other thread people were telling him to grow up and carry his own weight, and I believe he started this thread to make the point that he feels he can’t. Oh, okay. Didn’t see that thread. Seems like he’s going through a hard time in his life where he feels powerless. I can’t fault him for that. Life is hard. I hope he figures it out. > [@](#): > > (You probably wanted the OP himself to reply to your question, so I apologize). Nope, totally cool. But if he wants to explain too, that’s great. ---
**Author:** ![Essured](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Essured](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Essured)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swedish-prisoners-dilemma/645209/22 "2012-12-27T11:23:35Z")
I think “the prisoner” should stay. Every person I know would rather take on some responsibilities (you know, those onerous responsibilities which every other adult manages to deal with without any trouble or anguish whatsoever), in order to savour the freedom that comes from being beholden to nobody. Obviously this does not appear to be a good deal from “the prisoners” perspective. If he doesn’t value growing into an adult and grabbing that freedom for himself, then he should stay where he is as long as others will enable him to avoid adulthood. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_I\_Am](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e495f1/32.png) [@Sam\_I\_Am](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_I_Am)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swedish-prisoners-dilemma/645209/23 "2012-12-27T21:08:06Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > My parents will not harm me in any way – they were never abusive. Theoretically I have nothing to fear. > > But I still do not know how to live on my own… Bringing kids up so enmeshed that they aren’t capable of living on their own, is emotional abuse. Your parents failed you. But now, as an adult, you are perpetuating that. What would it take for your 3rd attempt at leaving to be a successful one? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swedish-prisoners-dilemma/645209/24 "2012-12-27T21:17:38Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > Yep, sooner or later his support system is going to collapse, so he’d better make plans for life on his own. I don’t know whether it’s a urban legend or not, being one of those stories which are hard to search for… but the story says that when Spain’s “life” got switched over to “25 tops”, there was an old gent in a prison who, a few days after being released, went back and asked them to take him in, for he’d been in prison since he was a teen and that was over 40 years prior, and he had no family or friends outside and didn’t know how anything worked. They hired him as a gardener (which was the job he’d had while inside). You’re a lot better off than he was, **CC**. You’ve got professional training (and any degree can open doors for many different jobs, not just “the one you trained for”), you’ve navigated bureaucracy succesfully before… he hadn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swedish-prisoners-dilemma/645209/25 "2012-12-27T21:43:17Z")
Well does this prisoner earn $700/month, [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15030654&postcount=1](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15030654&postcount=1) and is 38, [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15030883&postcount=3](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15030883&postcount=3) or is this prisoner making $500/month and is 43? [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15830711&postcount=7](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15830711&postcount=7) I would say the prisoner should stay and just get some hookers. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swedish-prisoners-dilemma/645209/26 "2012-12-28T02:16:55Z")
> [@half-elf](#): > > Well, it was clear to me as soon as I started reading the OP of this thread that the “prisoner” was a metaphor for the OP’s actual life. (Not wanting for anything in a material sense, but not being/ not feeling able to change his circumstances non the less). In the other thread people were telling him to grow up and carry his own weight, and I believe he started this thread to make the point that he feels he can’t. Also I was never abused. In Russia I knew people who were abused by their parents – their life is not like that of a Swedish prisoner. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swedish-prisoners-dilemma/645209/27 "2012-12-28T02:18:55Z")
> [@Blackberry](#): > > Seems like he’s going through a hard time in his life where he feels powerless. I can’t fault him for that. Life is hard. I hope he figures it out. Real prisoners in USA have much worse lives… ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swedish-prisoners-dilemma/645209/28 "2012-12-28T02:20:37Z")
> [@Essured](#): > > I think “the prisoner” should stay. > Every person I know would rather take on some responsibilities (you know, those onerous responsibilities which every other adult manages to deal with without any trouble or anguish whatsoever), in order to savour the freedom that comes from being beholden to nobody. > > Obviously this does not appear to be a good deal from “the prisoners” perspective. If he doesn’t value growing into an adult and grabbing that freedom for himself, then he should stay where he is as long as others will enable him to avoid adulthood. Possibly he will. Why not? ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swedish-prisoners-dilemma/645209/29 "2012-12-28T02:24:05Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > Real prisoners in USA have much worse lives… Well, yeah. Just wishing you well, dude! Everyone has it better than someone. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swedish-prisoners-dilemma/645209/30 "2012-12-28T02:25:04Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > Well does this prisoner earn $700/month, > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15030654&postcount=1](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15030654&postcount=1) > > and is 38, > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15030883&postcount=3](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15030883&postcount=3) > > or is this prisoner making $500/month and is 43? > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15830711&postcount=7](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15830711&postcount=7) His birth date is a normally distributed variable with nean of 1970 and standard deviation of 5. His salary is a normally distributed variable with nean of $500/month and standard deviation of $200/month. > [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > I would say the prisoner should stay and just get some hookers. According to a Swedish law of 1999, he will return to prison for six months. But I am not interested into going to a Californian prison. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swedish-prisoners-dilemma/645209/31 "2012-12-28T03:03:57Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > This is a hypothetical situation. Olaf The Innocent was convicted of a crime in 1990, when he was still young. Since then he lived in a Stockholm prison. Now he can be granted parole whenever he wishes. > > Nevertheless, he has a comfortable room with a private shower cabin, good color TV with 15 channels, good food, library access, some video games. His knowledge about prison rape, gangs, etc. is limited to the films he saw about the horrible US prisons. > > Should he just leave everything? Where will he stay in the cold Stockholm winter? Why should he work in a restarant? I met a former convict in the US with a similar dilemma. He missed and pined for prison life. Some good friends lived in an apartment, and we all became friendly with the people next door to them, three members of an extended family. One day, their cousin came to live with them. He was middle-aged and had been in prison in California for almost all of his adult life. He was paroled to Texas because of his relatives there. We’d often share a beer at night, and he was a genuinely nice guy to talk to. Completely open and honest about himself. He’d been given a decent job driving an airport limo, was making good money from that and seemed really to be trying to make a go of it. One quirk that he had, though, was always reminiscing about how good life was in prison. You could see he truly missed the place. He’d tell how you could have anything you wanted there, even pornography and sex. About that time, a series of armed robberies began in the area. Yep, you guessed it. During one robbery, the perp ended up shot through the neck but lived. Yes, it was my friends’ paroled neighbor. It seems going back to prison was a main motive for the robberies. They obliged him and sent him back. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swedish-prisoners-dilemma/645209/32 "2012-12-28T06:38:51Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Some good friends lived in an apartment, and we all became friendly with the people next door to them, three members of an extended family. One day, their cousin came to live with them. He was middle-aged and had been in prison in California for almost all of his adult life. He was paroled to Texas because of his relatives there. We’d often share a beer at night, and he was a genuinely nice guy to talk to. Completely open and honest about himself. He’d been given a decent job driving an airport limo, was making good money from that and seemed really to be trying to make a go of it. One quirk that he had, though, was always reminiscing about how good life was in prison. You could see he truly missed the place. He’d tell how you could have anything you wanted there, even pornography and sex. > > About that time, a series of armed robberies began in the area. Yep, you guessed it. During one robbery, the perp ended up shot through the neck but lived. Yes, it was my friends’ paroled neighbor. It seems going back to prison was a main motive for the robberies. They obliged him and sent him back. Real US prison is MUCH MUCH WORSE then my situation. Yet few of those who have not experienced it can understand me. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swedish-prisoners-dilemma/645209/33 "2012-12-28T15:54:24Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > His birth date is a normally distributed variable with nean of 1970 and standard deviation of 5. His salary is a normally distributed variable with nean of $500/month and standard deviation of $200/month. So the prisoner makes $300/month. That’s not a lot of money for hookers. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swedish-prisoners-dilemma/645209/34 "2012-12-28T16:11:42Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > So the prisoner makes $300/month. That’s not a lot of money for hookers. To say nothing of the blow. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swedish-prisoners-dilemma/645209/35 "2012-12-28T16:12:45Z")
Physical comfort is an important thing in life. But I don’t think it is the most important thing. I don’t know what the most important thing is. Maybe it’s love. Or self-actualization. It’s probably different for everyone. But I think most people would put “having a soft bed to sleep in” at the bottom of the list. Olaf is assuming that freedom means going without “nice” things. But I would tell Olaf he’s a victim of black-and-white thinking. He may not be able to replicate all the luxuries of prison life out in the “real world”, but those things can be replaced with something else. For instance, prison has cable TV–a luxury he probably won’t be able to afford on his own. But in prison, he will never be able to go see the Grand Canyon, go camping out in the desert, or take a weekend trip to the beach. In prison, he can be rest assured he will get the adequate amount of calories he needs for survival. But he has no choice about what he’s going to eat and he can’t experience the pleasure of “pigging out” on his favorite foods. Cravings go unfulfilled in prison. They are catered to in the real world. In the real world, there’s always hope that he will able to do everything he wants to do one day. He may not have the nicest furniture now, but maybe tomorrow he will. There is no change in prison, though. What you have now is what you will always have. If hope is the most important thing in the world, even luxurious prisons are hell. ---
**Author:** ![AngelSoft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/angelsoft/32/440_2.png) [@AngelSoft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AngelSoft)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swedish-prisoners-dilemma/645209/36 "2012-12-28T17:09:22Z")
First, I just want to say I have a good idea of where the ‘prisoner’ is coming from. It’s not something I’m proud of nor like to admit to, but I’ve been living in ‘prison’ for five years now. For five years, my daughter and I have been completely financially supported by my parents. We’ve lived with my parents for about three of those years, including the past year and presently. During that time, I’ve had no job and my parents have not made any sort of push for me to get one. The first year or so, I was highly motivated to get a job, as I had been independent of them for the previous ten years. But as time went by and I remained unemployed, the urge to get a job became less and less. I should also add that I suffer from depression as well, though I am finally getting treatment for it. What I’m trying to say is, I know how hard it can be to get out of a situation where your most basic needs are met and there’s no real outside pressure to change it. You get used to it and the longer you’re in the situation, the harder it is to get out of it. In my case, my depression has made it difficult for me to get the motivation to change things for the better. On top of that, having a five year gap of unemployment makes finding a job in an already slow job market even harder. But I’m finally starting to try. Because I know that, while I may be satisfied with life as it is, I’m not really happy. It’s hard, and I’m constantly dealing with negative thoughts and feelings of hopelessness but, if I don’t try, nothing’s ever going to get better. A person just has to make the final decision for themselves, that if they are unhappy with their life, they need to make whatever changes are necessary to change that. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swedish-prisoners-dilemma/645209/37 "2012-12-28T19:24:29Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Olaf is assuming that freedom means going without “nice” things. But I would tell Olaf he’s a victim of black-and-white thinking. He may not be able to replicate all the luxuries of prison life out in the “real world”, but those things can be replaced with something else. For instance, prison has cable TV–a luxury he probably won’t be able to afford on his own. But in prison, he will never be able to go see the Grand Canyon, go camping out in the desert, or take a weekend trip to the beach. In prison, he can be rest assured he will get the adequate amount of calories he needs for survival. But he has no choice about what he’s going to eat and he can’t experience the pleasure of “pigging out” on his favorite foods. Cravings go unfulfilled in prison. They are catered to in the real world. In order to see Grand Canyon he has to travel to USA – out of question. > [@monstro](#): > > If hope is the most important thing in the world, even luxurious prisons are hell. Hard to say – definitly luxurious prisons are much better then US prisons or a life of a homeless person. Besides the fact that at his age he may be too old to start from the beginning. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swedish-prisoners-dilemma/645209/38 "2012-12-28T19:25:38Z")
> [@AngelSoft](#): > > First, I just want to say I have a good idea of where the ‘prisoner’ is coming from. It’s not something I’m proud of nor like to admit to, but I’ve been living in ‘prison’ for five years now. For five years, my daughter and I have been completely financially supported by my parents. We’ve lived with my parents for about three of those years, including the past year and presently. During that time, I’ve had no job and my parents have not made any sort of push for me to get one. The first year or so, I was highly motivated to get a job, as I had been independent of them for the previous ten years. But as time went by and I remained unemployed, the urge to get a job became less and less. I should also add that I suffer from depression as well, though I am finally getting treatment for it. Thank you – your and my situations are not rare. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swedish-prisoners-dilemma/645209/39 "2012-12-28T20:02:56Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > In order to see Grand Canyon he has to travel to USA – out of question. Why is it out of the question? Olaf as a free man may win a sweepstakes and get an all-expense paid trip to anywhere of his choosing. Or he may save up all his pennies and decide to go traveling one day. That’s the beauty of not being in prison. Olaf can have dreams and see some of them come true. But a dreamer sentenced to a lifetime in prison is nothing but a poor fool. > [@](#): > > Hard to say – definitly luxurious prisons are much better then US prisons or a life of a homeless person. Besides the fact that at his age he may be too old to start from the beginning. A prisoner who has a choice to stay in prison for its “luxuries” is well within his right to stay there. But he’s sadly mistaken if he thinks he’s always going to get a lifetime of prison-quality luxuries, just by virtue of being alive. One day the warden may decide to transfer him to a worse prison, one where no one will care that he’s Olaf the Innocent. And at that point, he won’t have the option to leave. He’d be better off taking a risk of being homeless _now_, when he’s younger and has more resources, than hoping the quality of his prison never deteriorates. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swedish-prisoners-dilemma/645209/40 "2012-12-28T20:22:57Z")
Sad people are going to be sad no matter where they are. If Olaf was suddenly tapped to be a million-dollar-per-engagement, world’s foremost lecturer on all things social science he would still be miserable if he was unhappy as a $700/month intern living with his parents or a prisoner in a luxurious swedish prison. There might be lessening levels of sadness but overall Olaf is going to be sad. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swedish-prisoners-dilemma/645209.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swedish-prisoners-dilemma/645209.md?page=3)