# Swift Boat Vets Site - seems phony **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 27, 2004, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swift-boat-vets-site-seems-phony/261871 "2004-08-27T23:31:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swift-boat-vets-site-seems-phony/261871/141 "2004-08-31T01:38:18Z")
**Fear Itself** said: > [@](#): > > \*Quote: > Originally Posted by Sam Stone > There was nothing ever routine or safe about flying an F-102. \* > > Neither was serving aboard the USS Gridley. I do believe you found the only person who was killed in the entire history of the _Gridley_. At least, I couldn’t find any others. And the person you mentioned was killed after helicoptering in ‘in-country’. Since Kerry stayed safely on the boat, he was about as safe as any sailor in the Navy anywhere. > [@](#): > > Your assertion that GWB’s service was more valorious than that of personnel who served in a war zone is disgusting. I didn’t say it was more ‘valorious’, so let’s not put words in my mouth, hmmn? I said it was more DANGEROUS. And I was speaking of averages. There was about a 1.5% chance of the average draftee being killed in Vietnam. As I showed, the chance of Bush being killed was significantly higher. But there is no doubt that Kerry’s swiftboat service was even more dangerous. See, this pisses me off, because I get slammed for not knowing the facts, and yet I have to argue with people who don’t have the foggiest notion of what they are talking about. Flying Century-Series fighters was DANGEROUS. Damned dangerous. Those things were unstable at low speeds, suffered all kinds of mechanical problems, and were simply a handful to fly. This was before they had all the cool computer-augmented stability stuff, and before they had computer modelling of aircraft stresses and such. Canada used to fly the F-104, and I had friends who flew them. They had an old joke: “Do you know how to get your own F-104? Buy a piece of land and wait.” Everyone I knew who flew those century-series jets knew someone who was killed in them by accident. And if you didn’t get killed, the odds were pretty good that you might have to eject at some point, and those old ejection seats had a habit of breaking spines, tearing off kneecaps, etc. Here’s a cite for you: [AerospaceWeb F-102 Page](http://64.233.179.104/custom?q=cache:4_g-ImwCaHcJ:aerospaceweb.org/question/history/q0185.shtml+F-102&hl=en&ie=UTF-8). That page is from the google cache, so I hope it loads. For some reason, the page is not currently available other than in the cache. From that cite: > [@](#): > > It is a common misconception that the Air National Guard was a safe place for military duty during the Vietnam War. In actuality, pilots from the 147th Fighter Interceptor Group, as it was called at the time, were actually conducting combat missions in Vietnam when Bush enlisted. In fact, Air Force F-102 squadrons had been stationed in South Vietnam since March 1962. It was during this time that the Kennedy administration began building up a large US military presence in the nation as a deterrent against North Vietnamese invasion. > > … > > These missions were also dangerous, given the risks inherent to low-level attacks against armed ground troops. A total of 14 or 15 F-102 fighters were lost in Vietnam. Three were shot down by anti-aircraft or small arms fire, one is believed to have been lost in air-to-air combat with a MiG-21, four were destroyed on the ground during Viet Cong attacks, and the remainder succumbed to training accidents. Note that even in Vietnam more aircraft were lost in training accidents than were shot out of the sky by the enemy. > [@](#): > > Such accidents were quite common even in peacetime conditions, which is not unusual for military aircraft whose pilots risk their lives on every flight. **ANG sources indicate that only highly-qualified pilot candidates were accepted for Delta Dagger training because it was such a challenging aircraft to fly and left little room for mistakes.** According to the Air Force Safety Center, the lifetime Class A accident rate for the F-102 was 13.69 mishaps per 100,000 flight hours, much higher than the average for today’s combat aircraft. For example, the F-16 has an accident rate of 4.14, the F-15 is at 2.47, the F-117 at 4.07, the S-3 at 2.6, and the F-18 at 4.9. Even the Marine Corps’ AV-8B, regarded as the most dangerous aircraft in US service today, has a lifetime accident rate of only 11.44 mishaps per 100,000 flight hours. **The F-102 claimed the lives of many pilots, including a number stationed at Ellington during Bush’s tenure.** Of the 875 F-102A production models that entered service, 259 were lost in accidents that killed 70 Air Force and ANG pilots. > > Nevertheless, we have established that the F-102 was serving in combat in Vietnam at the time Bush enlisted to become an F-102 pilot. In fact, Air National Guard pilots from the 147th FIG were routinely rotated to Vietnam for combat duty under a volunteer program called “Palace Alert” from 1968 to 1970. Palace Alert was an Air Force program that sent qualified F-102 pilots from the ANG to bases in Europe or southeast Asia for three to six months of frontline duty. This program was instituted because the Air Force lacked sufficient pilots of its own for duty in Vietnam but was unable to activate ANG units since Presidents Johnson and Nixon had decided not to do so for political reasons. Thanks to Palace Alert, the Air Force was able to transfer much-needed National Guard pilots to Vietnam on a voluntary basis while not activating their squadrons. > > Fred Bradley, a friend of Bush’s who was also serving in the Texas ANG, reported that he and Bush inquired about participating in the Palace Alert program. However, the two were told by a superior, MAJ Maurice Udell, that they were not yet qualified since they were still in training and did not have the 500 hours of flight experience required. Furthermore, ANG veteran COL William Campenni, who was a fellow pilot in the 111th FIS at the time, told the Washington Times that Palace Alert was winding down and not accepting new applicants. So… When Bush volunteered the unit he signed up for was active in Vietnam. He could easily have been sent there. And in any event, what he did was hella dangerous. No question about it. I know you hate the guy, but that’s no reason to deny reality. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swift-boat-vets-site-seems-phony/261871/142 "2004-08-31T01:55:27Z")
Bush specifically requested that he _not_ be sent to Vietnam and there was never the slightest chance that his division would be sent there. That’s the reason his division existed in the first place- to give rich a kids a place to hide from the war. The NG was a sanctuary from the war. Everybody knew that and that’s why there was a long waiting list to get in. Bush had abysmal test scores but used family connections to get himself put to the front of the line (no less than Cecil himself has confirmed that Bush family connections were used). Kerry could have done the same thing. He could have used his own connections and avoided the draft or found his own “Champagne Division.” The only way that Kerry went to Nam was because he wanted to. To suggest that volunteering for the Navy and writing “I request duty in Vietnam” is some sort of dodge while pulling strings to take flying lessons in Texas, skip drug tests and blow off duty for months at a time is somehow brave and heroic is beyond disingenuous. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swift-boat-vets-site-seems-phony/261871/143 "2004-08-31T01:55:55Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Since Kerry stayed safely on the boat, he was about as safe as any sailor in the Navy anywhere. But the question is, was he safer than George Bush, who spent most of his duty sitting in a National Guard office reading magazines. The lowliest mess boy in the galley of the USS Gridley was in more danger than George W. Bush. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swift-boat-vets-site-seems-phony/261871/144 "2004-08-31T01:56:34Z")
**Minty Green** said: > [@](#): > > \*Quote: > Originally Posted by Sam Stone > But there are facts that can be evaluated. No speculation required. For example: > > John Kerry’s 3rd purple heart: > > 1. John Kerry claimed that he was injured in combat by shrapnel when a mine went off under his boat. The wound listed in the medical report was specifically “shrapnel wound to the buttock”. > > 2. John Kerry’s OWN JOURNAL says that he got his buttock wound earlier in the day, when he and Rassman were destroying VC rice stockpiles with grenades. > > Conclusion: Kerry lied. He saw an opportunity to turn his embarassing accident into a combat injury, and he took it. These documents are publically available and can be examined. Please explain this. > \* > > Certainly. The Personnel Casualty Report from that incident states that “While serving as officer in charge aboard the PCF-94 enaged in operations in the above river, LTJG Kerry suffered shrapnel wounds in his left buttocks and contusions on his right forearm when a mine detonated close aboard PCF-94.” A page later it says that Kerry “Received shrapnel wounds in left buttocks and contusions on right forearm when a mine detonated close to PCF-94 while engaged in operations on river.” > > Now where exactly is it that you see Kerry lying in that report? Gee, I don’t know… how about the part where it says **“While serving as officer in charge aboard the PCF-94 enaged in operations in the above river, LTJG Kerry suffered shrapnel wounds in his left buttocks and contusions on his right forearm when a mine detonated close aboard PCF-94.”**??? Since Kerry did NOT in fact suffer shrapnel wounds in his left buttocks when a mine detonated close about his boat, that would qualify as a LIE. > [@](#): > > The guy showed up at the aid station with shrapnel in his ass and contusions on his arm. The casualty report–which is incontrovertably NOT written by Kerry, see the signature on the last page?–says he had shrapnel in his ass and contusions on his arm. Nowhere does it say that Kerry told the medical folks that he’d gotten the shrapnel in his ass when the mine exploded. Uh huh. So he remained mute, huh? They never asked how he got hurt? Right. At BEST, all you can claim is that Kerry didn’t speak up about the nature of the butt wound and let someone make a false assumption in his favor. AT BEST. > [@](#): > > (In fact, that would be a pretty goddamned stupid lie, what with all the witnesses who knew he’d gotten the shrapnel in the ass blowing up the rice cache. Court martial material, really.) So why do you assume that Kerry lied about the ass shrapnel, when it’s at least as likely that the medical folks were either confused themselves or making a logical assumption about a couple minor wounds that they would not have any reason to give a hoot about? It was Kerry’s responsibility to notify the medic if his wounds were not in fact suffered in combat. And now we get to the part where Minty Green, who is apparently a lawyer, engages in a distortion of a cite so incredible that if I had done it Hentor would probably asphyxiate because he wouldn’t be able to stop screaming LIAR long enough to breathe. **Minty Green** said: > [@](#): > > Please note even further that the official regulations governing award of the Purple Heart state that the medal shall be awarded for any “wound” sustained in, inter alia, “any action against an enemy of the United States.” The regs define “wound” as follows: A wound is defined as an injury to any part of the body from an outside force or agent sustained under one or more of the conditions listed above. A physical lesion is not required, however, the wound for which the award is made must have required treatment by a medical officer and records of medical treatment for wounds or injuries received in action must have been made a matter of official record. Kerry’s arm contusions were clearly treated by the medical folks, since they are noted right along with the ass shrapnel on the casualty report. Thus, irrespective of the ass shrapnel, Kerry was indisputably entitled to that third purple heart (or gold star or green clover or whatever) because of the contusions alone. That is, of course, completely contrary to what you and the SBVFTT crowd have been claiming. Maybe he hoped no one would read the cite or something, because JUST BELOW the part he quotes, it says this: > [@](#): > > (3) When contemplating an award of this decoration,\*\* the key issue that commanders must take into consideration is the degree to which the enemy caused the injury. The fact that the proposed recipient was participating in direct or indirect combat operations is a necessary prerequisite, but is not sole justification for award.\*\* It continues: > [@](#): > > (5) Examples of injuries or wounds which clearly **do not qualify for award of the Purple Heart** are as follows: > > (a) Frostbite or trench foot injuries. > > (b) Heat stroke. > > © Food poisoning not caused by enemy agents. > > (d) Chemical, biological, or nuclear agents not released by the enemy. > > (e) Battle fatigue. > > (f) Disease not directly caused by enemy agents. > > \*\*(g) Accidents, to include explosive, aircraft, vehicular, and other accidental wounding not related to or caused by enemy action. > > (h) Self-inflicted wounds, except when in the heat of battle, and not involving gross negligence. > \*\* > (i) Post traumatic stressdisorders. > > (j) Jump injuries not caused by enemy action. Minty’s cite doesn’t quite say what he wants us to believe, if you just take the time to read the whole thing. Does it? Minty also makes the mistake of confusing ‘sought medical attention’ with ‘REQUIRES medical attention’. The ‘minor contusion’ on his arm did NOT require medical attention. Or if you think so… Hands up, all of you who have gone to the hospital to have a bruise on your arm attended to. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swift-boat-vets-site-seems-phony/261871/145 "2004-08-31T02:00:04Z")
**Fear Itself** said: > [@](#): > > But the question is, was he safer than George Bush, who spent most of his duty sitting in a National Guard office reading magazines. The lowliest mess boy in the galley of the USS Gridley was in more danger than George W. Bush. Come on, admit it - you didn’t read a damned word I just posted, did you? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swift-boat-vets-site-seems-phony/261871/146 "2004-08-31T02:06:10Z")
How many times do you have to be told before it sinks in… Kerry did not get a PH for getting shrapnel in the ass. He got for being wounded in the arm during his Bronze Star incident. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swift-boat-vets-site-seems-phony/261871/147 "2004-08-31T02:07:57Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Come on, admit it - you didn’t read a damned word I just posted, did you? **Sam** , I assure you, I gave your post all the attention it was worthy of, as I always do. I just didn’t find it persuasive. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swift-boat-vets-site-seems-phony/261871/148 "2004-08-31T02:36:24Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Bush had abysmal test scores but used family connections to get himself put to the front of the line (no less than Cecil himself has confirmed that Bush family connections were used). You can get it right from that family connection’s mouth now. [Ben Barnes:](http://69.59.167.160/Barnes%20on%20Vietnam.mov) > [@](#): > > Let’s talk a minute about John Kerry and George Bush and I know them both. And I’m not name dropping to say I know ‘em both. I got a young man named George W. Bush in the National Guard when I was Lt. Gov. of Texas and I’m not necessarily proud of that. But I did it. And I got a lot of other people into the National Guard because I thought that was what people should do, when you’re in office you helped a lot of rich people. And I walked through the Vietnam Memorial the other day and I looked at the names of the people that died in Vietnam and I became more ashamed of myself than I have ever been because it was the worst thing that I did was that I helped a lot of wealthy supporters and a lot of people who had family names of importance get into the National Guard and I’m very sorry about that and I’m very ashamed and I apologize to you as voters of Texas. The man has asked for our apologies and we ought to give them to him. **Sam** , where’s that data on the safety of frigates in war zones, the data you used to conclude that Kerry was a coward? We gonna see that or what? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swift-boat-vets-site-seems-phony/261871/149 "2004-08-31T02:38:03Z")
Er, he’s asked for our _forgiveness_. You have mine for what it’s worth, Mr. Barnes. Would you please speak out more often during this campaign? ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swift-boat-vets-site-seems-phony/261871/150 "2004-08-31T02:38:55Z")
Your powers to disregard the points I actually made are very impressive, **Sam**. Almost as impressive as your ability to ignore everything else that demonstrates the SBVFTT folks to be lying SOBs. Nevertheless, just so the casual reader is clear on the subject, here’s what you ignored about my post: > [@Sam Stone](#): > > Gee, I don’t know… how about the part where it says **“While serving as officer in charge aboard the PCF-94 enaged in operations in the above river, LTJG Kerry suffered shrapnel wounds in his left buttocks and contusions on his right forearm when a mine detonated close aboard PCF-94.”**??? Since Kerry did NOT in fact suffer shrapnel wounds in his left buttocks when a mine detonated close about his boat, that would qualify as a LIE. This, after I pointed out that the Personnel Casualty Report in question was not written by Kerry. Signed by someone else entirely, remember? So basically, your position is that a document Kerry didn’t even write, may have never even seen until 35 years later, is proof of a lie by Kerry. This may well be your position, but it’s a stupid one. > [@](#): > > Uh huh. So he remained mute, huh? They never asked how he got hurt? Right. At BEST, all you can claim is that Kerry didn’t speak up about the nature of the butt wound and let someone make a false assumption in his favor. AT BEST. AT BEST, as you say, one can claim that the medical staff who wrote the report didn’t bother to ask, or maybe didn’t give a shit, or maybe just wrote a crappy report. Nevertheless, you conclude that an innocuous, ambiguous report written by somebody else entirely proves wrongdoing on the part of Kerry. Any remotely fair-minded person would have to concede that the personnel casualty report falls far short of establishing your contention. But you are not such a person, for you are a true believer. > [@](#): > > It was Kerry’s responsibility to notify the medic if his wounds were not in fact suffered in combat. And where is your proof that Kerry failed to so report? The PCR establishes, at most, that the medical staff thought the ass shrapnel was from the mine explosion. It does not establish that Kerry _told_ them the ass shrapnel was from the mine, or that he was negligent in reporting the source of the ass shrapnel. Hell, you yourself concede that he was writing about the exploding rice cache in his personal journal at the time of the incident. Are you really claiming that Kerry was scheming to defraud the medical staff about the source of his ass shrapnel, even though he was writing about it in his journal and apparently everyone on the mission knew how he’d acquired the ass wounds? Of course you are making that claim. That’s what you do when you’re a true believer. > [@](#): > > And now we get to the part where Minty Green, who is apparently a lawyer, engages in a distortion of a cite so incredible that if I had done it Hentor would probably asphyxiate because he wouldn’t be able to stop screaming LIAR long enough to breathe. Oh ho! Quite the charge there, little man. Think you can back it up? I think not. > [@](#): > > **Minty Green** said: > > > [@](#): > > > > Please note even further that the official regulations governing award of the Purple Heart state that the medal shall be awarded for any “wound” sustained in, inter alia, “any action against an enemy of the United States.” The regs define “wound” as follows: A wound is defined as an injury to any part of the body from an outside force or agent sustained under one or more of the conditions listed above. A physical lesion is not required, however, the wound for which the award is made must have required treatment by a medical officer and records of medical treatment for wounds or injuries received in action must have been made a matter of official record. Kerry’s arm contusions were clearly treated by the medical folks, since they are noted right along with the ass shrapnel on the casualty report. Thus, irrespective of the ass shrapnel, Kerry was indisputably entitled to that third purple heart (or gold star or green clover or whatever) because of the contusions alone. That is, of course, completely contrary to what you and the SBVFTT crowd have been claiming. Correct. I said that Kerry was entitled to what you refer to as the third Purple Heart (which is actually some sort of extra ribbon to be appended to the first Purple Heart, since you only ever get one of those), _regardless of the source of the ass shrapnel_, because of the arm contusions he received as a result of the mine explosion, which resulted in medical treatment. So what do you come back with? The argument that Kerry wasn’t entitled to a Purple Heart for the ass shrapnel because it wasn’t received in an engagement against the enemy. Very droll of you. And by “droll,” I mean willfully obtuse. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swift-boat-vets-site-seems-phony/261871/151 "2004-08-31T03:05:17Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > Oh ho! Quite the charge there, little man. Think you can back it up? I think not. No, no he’s right. I don’t know how he comes by his mastery of the “facts” he is so mercilessly abused for knowing (like knowing that Kerry never took a helicopter off of the Gridley - holy smokes that’s impressive) he knew that I hadn’t posted because in fact I was screaming LIAR so loudly I did pass out. I in fact often scream LIAR very loudly. My wife finds it kind of annoying, and the neighbors threaten to call the police, but I find that I can’t shake the memory of **Sam’s** incessant perfidy without yelling LIAR, as if I have Tourette’s Disorder. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swift-boat-vets-site-seems-phony/261871/152 "2004-08-31T03:23:15Z")
> [@](#): > > Correct. I said that Kerry was entitled to what you refer to as the third Purple Heart (which is actually some sort of extra ribbon to be appended to the first Purple Heart, since you only ever get one of those), regardless of the source of the ass shrapnel, because of the arm contusions he received as a result of the mine explosion, which resulted in medical treatment. The Purple Heart reg says REQUIRES medical treatment. Not, “well, the guy decided to go in and get a cold compress on his boo-boo”. If he had not had the shrapnel in his butt, he would not have gone to the medic at all. “Minor contusions” do NOT REQUIRE medical treatment. Are you suggesting that if, say, a loud noise goes off in combat and gives someone a headache, they can get a purple heart for it as long as they ask the medic for an aspirin? Ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swift-boat-vets-site-seems-phony/261871/153 "2004-08-31T03:24:28Z")
**Hentor** said: > [@](#): > > knowing that Kerry never took a helicopter off of the Gridley - holy smokes that’s impressive If you can’t cough up a cite where I said that, do I get to call you a liar? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swift-boat-vets-site-seems-phony/261871/154 "2004-08-31T03:29:32Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > **Hentor** said: > > If you can’t cough up a cite where I said that, do I get to call you a liar? Sure. Wouldn’t “staying safely on the boat” rule out taking a helicopter off of it? > [@Sam Stone](#): > > At least, I couldn’t find any others. And the person you mentioned was killed after helicoptering in ‘in-country’. Since Kerry stayed safely on the boat, he was about as safe as any sailor in the Navy anywhere. So what do I get to call you? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swift-boat-vets-site-seems-phony/261871/155 "2004-08-31T03:35:43Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > The Purple Heart reg says REQUIRES medical treatment. Not, “well, the guy decided to go in and get a cold compress on his boo-boo”. If he had not had the shrapnel in his butt, he would not have gone to the medic at all. “Minor contusions” do NOT REQUIRE medical treatment. Are you suggesting that if, say, a loud noise goes off in combat and gives someone a headache, they can get a purple heart for it as long as they ask the medic for an aspirin? Ridiculous. You know what is fucking ridiculous? You believing that you can determine here and now whether “minor contusions” meant that Kerry had a wound that did not require treatment back then. You’re a sad, strange little man, and you have my pity. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swift-boat-vets-site-seems-phony/261871/156 "2004-08-31T03:58:51Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > The Purple Heart reg says REQUIRES medical treatment. Not, “well, the guy decided to go in and get a cold compress on his boo-boo”. If he had not had the shrapnel in his butt, he would not have gone to the medic at all. “Minor contusions” do NOT REQUIRE medical treatment. Are you suggesting that if, say, a loud noise goes off in combat and gives someone a headache, they can get a purple heart for it as long as they ask the medic for an aspirin? Ridiculous. His arm was fucked up and bleeding after a mine explosion under his boat. It only made sense to have it looked at. You can trivialize the wound all you want (Personally, I don’t have balls big enough to mock the wounds of combat veterans) but the Navy thought it was good enough to warrant a Purple Heart so go fuck yourself, civilian. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swift-boat-vets-site-seems-phony/261871/157 "2004-08-31T04:00:31Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Ann Coulter is the evil witch of the right. Really? And what title you you give the co-author of the book you’ve spent the better part of the last three weeks so zealouly defending? You, know, Jerome R. Corsi. The same Corsi who relaxes after work at the Free Republic forums and posts his thoughts on any number of topics. Just in case you lead as sheltered a life as **Brutus** , who was apparently surprised that the “why do you hate America” line was rather prevalent amongst his brethen, the following cite should give you some insight into the mindset of your fellow Truth Seeker: [New York Observer](http://www.observer.com/pages/frontpage3.asp) > [@](#): > > \*\*Jerome R. Corsi, Mr. O’Neill’s co-author, passes spare moments posting thoughts on [FreeRepublic.com](http://FreeRepublic.com), a righter-than-thou Web site. They range from “buggering” Catholics to “worthless, dangerous, Satanic” Islam to Democratic politicians such as “lesbo … FAT HOG … HELLary,” “anti-American Communist” Bill, and “Mullah Ali’Gore.” Mr. Corsi also has views on his book’s subject: > > “Kerry offers a clear choice. Anti-American hatred.” > > “JohnF-ing Commie Kerry and Commie Ted discuss their plans to hand America over to our nation’s enemies.” > > “First let’s undermine the U.S. in Vietnam. Then we can go for gay marriage. When you get to be Pres, JFK-lite, there will be no end to how much of America we can destroy.” > > “Just don’t let anybody put a tablet with the Ten Commandments in front of the school where that girl who wants to wear a Muslim scarf—OH, no—then the RATS would complain. Anti-Christian, Anti-America—just like their Presidential candidate—Jean Francois Kerrie.” > > “After he married TerRAHsa, didn’t John Kerry begin practicing Judaism? He has paternal grandparents that were Jewish. What religion is John Kerry?” \*\* So, **decemb** …er, **Sam** , feel like you need to take another shower after reading that? You should, because that’s the source of your stench and not the SDMB. Then again, who knows, maybe you two are good buddies from that board. You sure as hell defend his turd-infected hatchet piece like he is your bestest pal. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swift-boat-vets-site-seems-phony/261871/158 "2004-08-31T04:09:17Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Ann Coulter is the evil witch of the right. Really? And what title do you reserve for the co-author of the book you’ve spent the better part of the last three weeks so zealouly defending? You know, Jerome R. Corsi. The same Corsi who relaxes after work at the Free Republic forums and posts his thoughts on any number of topics. Just in case you lead as sheltered a life as Brutus, who was apparently surprised that the “why do you hate America” line was rather prevalent amongst his/your brethen, the following cite should give you some insight into the mindset of your fellow Truth Seeker: [New York Observer](http://www.observer.com/pages/frontpage3.asp) > [@](#): > > \*\*Jerome R. Corsi, Mr. O’Neill’s co-author, passes spare moments posting thoughts on [FreeRepublic.com](http://FreeRepublic.com), a righter-than-thou Web site. They range from “buggering” Catholics to “worthless, dangerous, Satanic” Islam to Democratic politicians such as “lesbo … FAT HOG … HELLary,” “anti-American Communist” Bill, and “Mullah Ali’Gore.” Mr. Corsi also has views on his book’s subject: > > “Kerry offers a clear choice. Anti-American hatred.” > > “JohnF-ing Commie Kerry and Commie Ted discuss their plans to hand America over to our nation’s enemies.” > > “First let’s undermine the U.S. in Vietnam. Then we can go for gay marriage. When you get to be Pres, JFK-lite, there will be no end to how much of America we can destroy.” > > “Just don’t let anybody put a tablet with the Ten Commandments in front of the school where that girl who wants to wear a Muslim scarf—OH, no—then the RATS would complain. Anti-Christian, Anti-America—just like their Presidential candidate—Jean Francois Kerrie.” > > “After he married TerRAHsa, didn’t John Kerry begin practicing Judaism? He has paternal grandparents that were Jewish. What religion is John Kerry?”\*\* So, **decemb** …er, **Sam** , feel like you need to take another shower after reading that? You should, because that’s the source of your stench and not the SDMB. Scrub, little man, scrub yourself raw. Then again, who knows, maybe you two are good buddies from that board. You sure as hell defend his turd-infected hatchet piece like he is your bestest pal. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swift-boat-vets-site-seems-phony/261871/159 "2004-08-31T04:18:01Z")
Apologies for double post. His ‘submit’ for ‘preview’ on the first one. Might as as well use this one as yet another public service announcement: Scrub, **Sam** , scruuub. One of [these](http://www.radishworks.com/ModelLib/images/TL01WireBrush.jpg) might help. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swift-boat-vets-site-seems-phony/261871/160 "2004-08-31T04:28:18Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > The Purple Heart reg says REQUIRES medical treatment. Not, “well, the guy decided to go in and get a cold compress on his boo-boo”. If he had not had the shrapnel in his butt, he would not have gone to the medic at all. “Minor contusions” do NOT REQUIRE medical treatment. Are you suggesting that if, say, a loud noise goes off in combat and gives someone a headache, they can get a purple heart for it as long as they ask the medic for an aspirin? Ridiculous. Yes, your position is entirely ridiculous. Kerry _was_ treated for his arm contusions. It says so right there in the Personnel Casualty Report. So now you’re reduced to claiming knowledge, 35 years later and with no evidence, that Kerry’s arm injury (which is mentioned in his [Bronze Star citation](http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/Bronze_Star.pdf), by the way, although you have claimed that Kerry wrote that himself or they were basing it on Kerry’s own report, even though they didn’t mention the ass shrapnel your story of the moment requires Kerry to have falsely claimed to be the result of the mine explosion the citation describes as the basis for the Bronze Star–guess the lie is only necessary for the Purple Heart, but not for the Bronze Star, eh?) did “NOT REQUIRE” medical treatment? And you know this how, precisely? As an article of faith? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swift-boat-vets-site-seems-phony/261871.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swift-boat-vets-site-seems-phony/261871.md?page=9)