Swift Boat Vets Site - seems phony

As I said, O’Neill says that he’s given far more to Democrats, but at the Houston civic level.

But I’m not sure why O’Neill’s partisanship is even at issue here. It would be if he was offering up his personal testimony against Kerry’s, but he’s not. He’s simply compiled a brief against Kerry. He has presented evidence, and the evidence should be evaluated - not the personal character of O’Neill. But of course, this is just part of the Democratic smear campaign. Don’t debate the evidence - throw up a cloud of bullshit and side issues and character assassinations and hope the whole thing gets so confusing that it goes away.

But there are facts that can be evaluated. No speculation required. For example:

John Kerry’s 3rd purple heart:

  1. John Kerry claimed that he was injured in combat by shrapnel when a mine went off under his boat. The wound listed in the medical report was specifically “shrapnel wound to the buttock”.

  2. John Kerry’s OWN JOURNAL says that he got his buttock wound earlier in the day, when he and Rassman were destroying VC rice stockpiles with grenades.

Conclusion: Kerry lied. He saw an opportunity to turn his embarassing accident into a combat injury, and he took it. These documents are publically available and can be examined. Please explain this.

John Kerry’s first purple heart:

  1. John Kerry claims that he was injured by enemy fire when he was reaching for an M-16. The swiftboat vets claim that he shot an M-79 grenade off too close to the boat and nicked himself with a small piece of shrapnel, and that there was no enemy fire.

  2. The only medical officer at the base says that he plucked a tiny shard out of his arm with tweezers and applied a band-aid.

  3. Kerry’s commanding officer says that Kerry came to him and said that he had been wounded in combat and should have a purple heart. The commander denied the request, and sent him on his way.

  4. Kerry got a purple heart, and no one knows how, because Kerry won’t release the records surrounding it.

  5. If there was combat, there has to be an after-action report. It’s mandatory whenever the enemy shoots at you. There is no after-action report for that incident.

  6. Kerry’s story is denied by Admiral William Schact, who was the Judge Advocate General for the navy. He says he was on the boat at the time, and there was no enemy fire. Generally, the JAG for the Navy would be considered a pretty good witness. Two enlisted men dispute this, and say Schaacht was not on the boat. Again, the records surrounding this award could help clear this up, but Kerry refuses to release them.

Christmas in Cambodia:

  1. Kerry has claimed for 35 years that he was in Cambodia on Christmas Eve. He claims this was a defining moment of his life - a moment when the wool was pulled from his eyes and he saw the war for what it was. Key to this memory is that he was ORDERED into Cambodia, and that his president was telling people there were no troops there while he was sitting five miles across the border.

  2. The Kerry campaign has now admitted that he wasn’t there. They have alternately said that he was ‘near’ the border, that he wasn’t near the border, that it must have been January, that he made one mission into Cambodia at a later date, and that he made three or four missions. The story changes repeatedly.

  3. Not a single crewmember backs him up on this, including the ‘band of brothers’ he hauls around with him. Steve Gardner, who was the gunner’s mate on his boat at the time, flatly denies that they were ever within 50 miles of Cambodia.

The other episodes in dispute (the silver star and bronze star) are more fuzzy, and I’m still inclined to say that the differences of opinion could be simply the ‘fog of war’. The swift vets also do not dispute Kerry’s 2nd Purple Heart, simply because they have no evidence one way or the other.

Kerry should have been discharged from the reserves in 1972. He was discharged in 1978. We don’t know why, because Kerry will not release the records around that time.

Finally, Kerry’s records are strange. There are three separate citations for his Silver Star, all with different wording (not just re-issuances of his first citation). His Silver Star citation says that he is entitled to wear the ‘combat V’, which is not awarded with the Silver Star. It could be a clerical error, I suppose, but since the pattern of his three citations are that each subsequent one has increasingly glowing language, my guess is that someone sympathetic to Kerry somewhere along the way tweaked his records a bit for political purposes.

There are at least 100 pages of records in the Navy file for Kerry. A FOIA request turns up six pages. The rest are witheld. Kerry can sign a standard form 180 and release them all, but he refuses.

You anti-Bush guys have been going on about his guard service for what, four years? Based on far less evidence than what we have about Kerry’s record. And you know, when allegations about Bush’s guard stuff came up, I don’t remember the big effort to attack the character of those making the allegations. When Turnipseed said he couldn’t remember Bush, you all treating this like an absolute smoking gun, despite the fact that the man changed his story shortly after.

When allegations are made against Bush, the allegations must be investigated. When allegations are made of Kerry, we must investigate those making the allegations. Big difference here.

Shayna: You feel free to believe that I got ‘my ass handed to me’. In fact, that thread just turned into another tedious pile-on party with people making sniggering remarks about me to each other and admitting that I’m not worthy of debate so they were just going to slime me with ad-hominems. I’m not interested in that kind of ‘debate’. Tell you what: You get the little kiddies to behave themselves, and I’ll be happy to defend the Swifties.

No Sam the fact is your claims about Kerry rely on sources and accusations.

It is entirely reasonable that those sources and accusations merit examination. None of them could claim or do claim to be objective and impartial in their claims.

In each case those sources are found to be either inconsistent or dishonest. Taken together with the stated objective of unseating Kerry, the sources simply are not to be believed.

This is emphasised by the fact that those claim contradict the extant documentary evidence.

Further you yourself have consistently inflated the significance of such conclusions as you draw. Ambiguity becomes certainty. That certainty is stated in the way most pejorative of Kerry. In each case your post leaps to the inevitable conclusion of Kerry’s unfitness for command. A conclusion which is debatable at best, even where the founding claims true.

And this isn’t helped by Sam’s earlier claim to be interested in discovering the plain truth of the matters. It does no good at all in that Sam has studiously avoided the main question, which is: Why aren’t we talking about Kerry’s testimony concerning the activities of soldiers in Vietnam? It is that testimony that most motivates the S-Vets.

We’ve had the prelude, the suggestions that Kerry may be less than fully honest. Lay on the testimony. Where is the argument?

You know honesty is a pretty substantial part of honour. Who will still call the S-Vets honourable?

Are you fucking kidding me? That sounds exactly like what you were guilty of in that thread! There are 20 pages of evidence of one SBV lie after another exposed. Every single thing you wasted your time re-typing in this thread, has been discussed and debunked in that other thread. There are 20 pages of debate about the facts that consistently align with John Kerry’s and the military’s written records of events. 15 pages of refutations that you steadfastly refused to accept. People spent 15 pages trying to debate/discuss with you, while you repeatedly did the message board equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and chanting “la la la la la, I can’t heeeeeear you!” Maybe when you stop using disingenuous tactics, people will be less likely to call you on your shit.

Did you read my message above? Look at Purple Heart number three. The evidence we have is documentation, WRITTEN BY JOHN KERRY. He contradicted himself, in writing, in official documents and his own biography. Please tell me who needs to be attacked to refute this.

And I have been completely honest. I’m still unsure of some of their claims. Others I have come to believe. What’s your problem?

I’m getting really tired of how personal everything gets in Great Debates. Now it’s all about my honor, whether I’m a truthful person, blah blah blah. Have you ever seen me question you or anyone else personally on this board? Why do some of you consistently have to go after the person? It’s just depressing. I don’t like logging on to the board to relax after work and feeling like I have to take a shower when I log off. It stops being an enjoyable debate and becomes a contest of who can jam a shiv deeper into his opponent’s ribs. It’s despicable behaviour, and it’s also against the rules of great debates.

Oh, and talking about another poster in the third person is RUDE. That’s one of the things I hate most about those little pile-on parties. The little comments between you all about ‘Sammy’ and how confused and stupid and dishonorable he is. All usually couched in language just barely acceptable for Great Debates, of course, but rude and obnoxious all the same.

Wow, welcome to the light side! Going to vote for Kerry now, eh?

I see ‘Sammy’ has climbed back up on his cross yet again. :wink:

You are attacking Kerry’s character, as a soldier who volunteered to go to war and put his life on the line. And you are doing so based on lies, smears, deception, personal vendettas and contradictory testimony. That is dishonest and dishonorable. And you will be called on it. So please stop crying and whining.

Disgusting indeed. Instead of attacking Kerry’s record, his stance on Iraq, his various “flip-flops”, etc., you have joined the lowest, most despicable rung of the Republican party – one, which I’m sure you are aware, has been denounced by most party members and supporters. And you have the audacity to ask why people are attacking you.

Wow. This is the most elegant example of hypocrisy I’ve seen on these boards in a long time.

Too bad he can’t offer any proof of this. He’s already been stone cold busted lying through his teeth, not only about his partisanship but even after his donations were discovered he tried to claim there was a mix-up with the name of his business partner- a laughably false claim which has already been debunked by Minty in the other thread.

[Checking forum…yep, it’s the Pit] It goes to motive, you fucking moron. O’Neill has been Republican hired thug for more than 30 years.

No, actually, he has not presented evidence. He has presented opinions and dubious testimont. So far, every single allegation regarding Kerry’s medals has been debunked. Every single “witness” for the Swifties, without exception, has ben discredited. Lying testimony does not count as evidence.

The “evidence” has been debated to death since the beginning and thoroughly debunked, you disingenuous fuck.

These are not actually “facts,” just so you know. These are allegations and speculations but lets go ahead and destroy them, what the fuck.

[quote]
John Kerry’s 3rd purple heart:

No he didn’t.

What did Kerry lie about? Show me something that says he ever claimed he he got the ass wound from enemy fire. He got his PH from being wounded in the arm.

No he doesn’t. He just said he got hit in the arm while his boat was engaged with some sampans. He has never said he knew where the shrapnel came from. The other guys on the boat have indicated that they believe there was return fire, but no one has ever said that Kerry was hit by hostile fire. It doesn’t matter. Wounds from friendly fire make you just as eligible for the PH as hostile fire. Your assertion that Kerry has ever claimed it was enemy fire is a fucking lie.

None of the Swifties were on the boat, though, were they? So how the fuck could they possibly know what happened?

A medical officer who is not the doctor of record and can provide no documentation showing that he ever even met John Kerry, much less treated him. (See how you keep confusing bullshit with fact? Let’s keep going.

And this commanding officer has nothing more than his word in support of this, does he? Do you understand that an allegation is not a fucking “fact?”

The records are on his website, dickhead.

In this case it’s irrelevant since Kerry has never claimed that enemy shot at him.

What “records” would you be referring to in this case? You say there is no AAR for the incident so what would you expect to see? The matter, frankly, already has been cleared up. Schachte was not on the boat. Period. He’s a fucking liar. We know this because all three people who were on the boat say he wasn’t there. Is it really your position that those other two guys are lying? Why?

He was there in January and February. End of story. You can hang on to a mix-up in dates if it makes you feel good. This is the only semi-hit that the Swifties have scored. If you truly think this is a victory then more power to you. I can tell you that it isn’t going to make anybody vote Bush, who is far and away a much bigger liar than John Kerry.

BTW, are you aware that John O’Neill now has his own “Cambodia problem?” Did you happen to catch that before you ran away from the other thread? O’Neill told Richard Nixon that he had been in Cambodia in a swift boat. Something that flatly contradicts all his assertions that swift boats were never in Cambodia and that he himself had never been in Cambodia. Do you have an explanation for that? Was O’Neill lying to Nixon or is he lying now?

There’s nothing “fuzzy” about them. The Swifties have simply been routed on these allegations by overwhelming documentary and eyewitness evidence. Maybe you could explain what the fuck is still so “fuzzy?” Are you still hanging onto that bulsshit about whether ther was fire from the shore when Kerry got his Bronze? Have you been following the other thread? Are you aware of yet two other official accounts which have come to light (along with two more witnesses, including one of Thurlow’s own crewmates) which confirm heavy fire from both shores? (And these accounts were not written by John Kerry- actually, there is still no proof that any of the accounts were written by John Kerry).

Who gives a shit? Why do you have to know why? What are you suggesting?

Yeah, uh huh…that must be it. :rolleyes:

There’s no reason he should. Every allegation of the Swifties regarding his service has already been debunked. There’s no reason to look at any more records unless you simply want to go fishing.

The allegations against Kerry have already been disposed of. There’s nothing left to investigate.

But speaking of liars…

What do you think about Bush claiming he was in the Air Force when he wasn’t? Does that make him a liar? Is that lie better or worse than any of your other alleged “lies” by John Kerry?

How about lying to start a war? How does that rank on the “lying sack of shit”
scale?
[On preview]

BULL FUCKING SHIT!

There are, to date, at least five official accounts of what happened during that incident. So far not one of them (despite what the swifties say) has been proven to be authored by Kerry. At least two of them are known to be authored by somebody else. There are also multiple eyewitnesses who have supported the official account, including a guy who was on Thurlow’s own boat. keep up with the facts why don’t you.

Great post Diogenes, I Usually do not go the extremes you go, but since this is the pit, I see it as an appropriate response for truly dishonest debaters. Bricker here shows that he is capable of seeing the evidence, at this late date, the actions of Sam are truly pathetic.

Sam, you want top play the martyr, that is fine, just don’t go pretending the new evidence that has appeared AGAINST the swifters is non existent, your position as someone just looking for the truth is a complete joke, the swifters already had their day in the sun, the blowback has to have its chance.

Whatever you say, guys.

And Diogenes, you really need to look into Valium.

Dude, what a loser followup. You haven’t got a leg to stand on. And someone does what you ask, and takes your “points” seriously enough to respond them substantively–though they hold no substance of their own, but still–and that’s your copout of a loser response? Man. Admit it when you’ve been handed your hat in such an intelligent and careful manner, or you’re as dishonest a loser as the Swifties.

Heh. For a such a retard, you sure can be funny sometimes!

Well.

If this is going to disintegrate into unfounded personal attacks, then I’m gonna go pout with Sam.

Cut it out! I am trying to eat, and that is no easy task when laughing so much!

When the SBVT first started their campaign this last spring someone told me that one of the guys who had served on Kerry’s boat had been on. I don’t watch the Fox news channel, but I happened to be at the home of someone who had cable and tuned in that night to … O’Reilly? Hannity & Colmes? … some talk show, anyhow, just to see the inteview. The program spent about 5 minutes with a guy who reminded of that one guy everyone has worked with who’s always unhappy and cranky and pessimistic and just an all-around asshole. The interviewer (whoever it was) didn’t even seem to like the guy.

I don’t know if the interviewee in question was O’Neill. All I remember thinking at the end of that interview was that there was no way that group was going to get anything resembling a message across if they couldn’t find someone who wasn’t the epitome of Aesop’s The Fox and the Grapes.

Too bad the group “found” the money to find others.

So on some show that was on some channel, some person was interviewed by somebody, and they said something.

Right.

Well…yeah. Do you remember seeing it? I remember staying up late for it, which is probably why the only thing I remember is my impression of the Sour Grapes guy. What’s re-run on Fox news around, say, 1 or 2 a.m. central time?

Has nothing to do with the board and everything to do with you being full of shit prior to logging on. You’re simply made aware of your own stench once you are here.

In fact, I suggest you scrub much harder when you log-off tonite. Because you’re still stinking up a storm…

You have to give Sam Stone some credit, though, both for his tenacity in clinging to the Swifties’ bullshit for so long, and his tenacity in insisting he’s “objective” and “respectable” even after he’s been spanked sixteen times around the SDMB on the topic. You usually don’t see this sort of obsessive insistence outside of three-year-olds.