I do believe you found the only person who was killed in the entire history of the Gridley. At least, I couldn’t find any others. And the person you mentioned was killed after helicoptering in ‘in-country’. Since Kerry stayed safely on the boat, he was about as safe as any sailor in the Navy anywhere.
I didn’t say it was more ‘valorious’, so let’s not put words in my mouth, hmmn? I said it was more DANGEROUS. And I was speaking of averages. There was about a 1.5% chance of the average draftee being killed in Vietnam. As I showed, the chance of Bush being killed was significantly higher.
But there is no doubt that Kerry’s swiftboat service was even more dangerous.
See, this pisses me off, because I get slammed for not knowing the facts, and yet I have to argue with people who don’t have the foggiest notion of what they are talking about. Flying Century-Series fighters was DANGEROUS. Damned dangerous. Those things were unstable at low speeds, suffered all kinds of mechanical problems, and were simply a handful to fly. This was before they had all the cool computer-augmented stability stuff, and before they had computer modelling of aircraft stresses and such. Canada used to fly the F-104, and I had friends who flew them. They had an old joke: “Do you know how to get your own F-104? Buy a piece of land and wait.” Everyone I knew who flew those century-series jets knew someone who was killed in them by accident. And if you didn’t get killed, the odds were pretty good that you might have to eject at some point, and those old ejection seats had a habit of breaking spines, tearing off kneecaps, etc.
Here’s a cite for you: AerospaceWeb F-102 Page. That page is from the google cache, so I hope it loads. For some reason, the page is not currently available other than in the cache. From that cite:
Note that even in Vietnam more aircraft were lost in training accidents than were shot out of the sky by the enemy.
So… When Bush volunteered the unit he signed up for was active in Vietnam. He could easily have been sent there. And in any event, what he did was hella dangerous. No question about it. I know you hate the guy, but that’s no reason to deny reality.
Bush specifically requested that he not be sent to Vietnam and there was never the slightest chance that his division would be sent there. That’s the reason his division existed in the first place- to give rich a kids a place to hide from the war.
The NG was a sanctuary from the war. Everybody knew that and that’s why there was a long waiting list to get in. Bush had abysmal test scores but used family connections to get himself put to the front of the line (no less than Cecil himself has confirmed that Bush family connections were used).
Kerry could have done the same thing. He could have used his own connections and avoided the draft or found his own “Champagne Division.” The only way that Kerry went to Nam was because he wanted to.
To suggest that volunteering for the Navy and writing “I request duty in Vietnam” is some sort of dodge while pulling strings to take flying lessons in Texas, skip drug tests and blow off duty for months at a time is somehow brave and heroic is beyond disingenuous.
But the question is, was he safer than George Bush, who spent most of his duty sitting in a National Guard office reading magazines. The lowliest mess boy in the galley of the USS Gridley was in more danger than George W. Bush.
Gee, I don’t know… how about the part where it says “While serving as officer in charge aboard the PCF-94 enaged in operations in the above river, LTJG Kerry suffered shrapnel wounds in his left buttocks and contusions on his right forearm when a mine detonated close aboard PCF-94.” ??? Since Kerry did NOT in fact suffer shrapnel wounds in his left buttocks when a mine detonated close about his boat, that would qualify as a LIE.
Uh huh. So he remained mute, huh? They never asked how he got hurt? Right. At BEST, all you can claim is that Kerry didn’t speak up about the nature of the butt wound and let someone make a false assumption in his favor. AT BEST.
It was Kerry’s responsibility to notify the medic if his wounds were not in fact suffered in combat.
And now we get to the part where Minty Green, who is apparently a lawyer, engages in a distortion of a cite so incredible that if I had done it Hentor would probably asphyxiate because he wouldn’t be able to stop screaming LIAR long enough to breathe.
Minty Green said:
Maybe he hoped no one would read the cite or something, because JUST BELOW the part he quotes, it says this:
It continues:
Minty’s cite doesn’t quite say what he wants us to believe, if you just take the time to read the whole thing. Does it?
Minty also makes the mistake of confusing ‘sought medical attention’ with ‘REQUIRES medical attention’. The ‘minor contusion’ on his arm did NOT require medical attention. Or if you think so… Hands up, all of you who have gone to the hospital to have a bruise on your arm attended to.
How many times do you have to be told before it sinks in… Kerry did not get a PH for getting shrapnel in the ass. He got for being wounded in the arm during his Bronze Star incident.
Your powers to disregard the points I actually made are very impressive, Sam. Almost as impressive as your ability to ignore everything else that demonstrates the SBVFTT folks to be lying SOBs. Nevertheless, just so the casual reader is clear on the subject, here’s what you ignored about my post:
This, after I pointed out that the Personnel Casualty Report in question was not written by Kerry. Signed by someone else entirely, remember? So basically, your position is that a document Kerry didn’t even write, may have never even seen until 35 years later, is proof of a lie by Kerry. This may well be your position, but it’s a stupid one.
AT BEST, as you say, one can claim that the medical staff who wrote the report didn’t bother to ask, or maybe didn’t give a shit, or maybe just wrote a crappy report. Nevertheless, you conclude that an innocuous, ambiguous report written by somebody else entirely proves wrongdoing on the part of Kerry. Any remotely fair-minded person would have to concede that the personnel casualty report falls far short of establishing your contention. But you are not such a person, for you are a true believer.
And where is your proof that Kerry failed to so report? The PCR establishes, at most, that the medical staff thought the ass shrapnel was from the mine explosion. It does not establish that Kerry told them the ass shrapnel was from the mine, or that he was negligent in reporting the source of the ass shrapnel. Hell, you yourself concede that he was writing about the exploding rice cache in his personal journal at the time of the incident. Are you really claiming that Kerry was scheming to defraud the medical staff about the source of his ass shrapnel, even though he was writing about it in his journal and apparently everyone on the mission knew how he’d acquired the ass wounds?
Of course you are making that claim. That’s what you do when you’re a true believer.
Oh ho! Quite the charge there, little man. Think you can back it up? I think not.
Correct. I said that Kerry was entitled to what you refer to as the third Purple Heart (which is actually some sort of extra ribbon to be appended to the first Purple Heart, since you only ever get one of those), regardless of the source of the ass shrapnel, because of the arm contusions he received as a result of the mine explosion, which resulted in medical treatment.
So what do you come back with? The argument that Kerry wasn’t entitled to a Purple Heart for the ass shrapnel because it wasn’t received in an engagement against the enemy.
Very droll of you. And by “droll,” I mean willfully obtuse.
No, no he’s right. I don’t know how he comes by his mastery of the “facts” he is so mercilessly abused for knowing (like knowing that Kerry never took a helicopter off of the Gridley - holy smokes that’s impressive) he knew that I hadn’t posted because in fact I was screaming LIAR so loudly I did pass out. I in fact often scream LIAR very loudly. My wife finds it kind of annoying, and the neighbors threaten to call the police, but I find that I can’t shake the memory of Sam’s incessant perfidy without yelling LIAR, as if I have Tourette’s Disorder.
The Purple Heart reg says REQUIRES medical treatment. Not, “well, the guy decided to go in and get a cold compress on his boo-boo”. If he had not had the shrapnel in his butt, he would not have gone to the medic at all. “Minor contusions” do NOT REQUIRE medical treatment. Are you suggesting that if, say, a loud noise goes off in combat and gives someone a headache, they can get a purple heart for it as long as they ask the medic for an aspirin? Ridiculous.
You know what is fucking ridiculous? You believing that you can determine here and now whether “minor contusions” meant that Kerry had a wound that did not require treatment back then.
You’re a sad, strange little man, and you have my pity.
His arm was fucked up and bleeding after a mine explosion under his boat. It only made sense to have it looked at. You can trivialize the wound all you want (Personally, I don’t have balls big enough to mock the wounds of combat veterans) but the Navy thought it was good enough to warrant a Purple Heart so go fuck yourself, civilian.
Really? And what title you you give the co-author of the book you’ve spent the better part of the last three weeks so zealouly defending? You, know, Jerome R. Corsi. The same Corsi who relaxes after work at the Free Republic forums and posts his thoughts on any number of topics.
Just in case you lead as sheltered a life as Brutus, who was apparently surprised that the “why do you hate America” line was rather prevalent amongst his brethen, the following cite should give you some insight into the mindset of your fellow Truth Seeker:
So, decemb…er, Sam, feel like you need to take another shower after reading that? You should, because that’s the source of your stench and not the SDMB.
Then again, who knows, maybe you two are good buddies from that board. You sure as hell defend his turd-infected hatchet piece like he is your bestest pal.
Really? And what title do you reserve for the co-author of the book you’ve spent the better part of the last three weeks so zealouly defending? You know, Jerome R. Corsi. The same Corsi who relaxes after work at the Free Republic forums and posts his thoughts on any number of topics.
Just in case you lead as sheltered a life as Brutus, who was apparently surprised that the “why do you hate America” line was rather prevalent amongst his/your brethen, the following cite should give you some insight into the mindset of your fellow Truth Seeker:
So, decemb…er, Sam, feel like you need to take another shower after reading that? You should, because that’s the source of your stench and not the SDMB. Scrub, little man, scrub yourself raw.
Then again, who knows, maybe you two are good buddies from that board. You sure as hell defend his turd-infected hatchet piece like he is your bestest pal.
Yes, your position is entirely ridiculous. Kerry was treated for his arm contusions. It says so right there in the Personnel Casualty Report. So now you’re reduced to claiming knowledge, 35 years later and with no evidence, that Kerry’s arm injury (which is mentioned in his Bronze Star citation, by the way, although you have claimed that Kerry wrote that himself or they were basing it on Kerry’s own report, even though they didn’t mention the ass shrapnel your story of the moment requires Kerry to have falsely claimed to be the result of the mine explosion the citation describes as the basis for the Bronze Star–guess the lie is only necessary for the Purple Heart, but not for the Bronze Star, eh?) did “NOT REQUIRE” medical treatment? And you know this how, precisely? As an article of faith?
