# Swift boating John McCain **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 11, 2008, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swift-boating-john-mccain/437107 "2008-02-11T02:53:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2008, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swift-boating-john-mccain/437107/81 "2008-02-13T15:57:13Z")
A war mongering prick like Bush needed to come off as a military leader. He ran from Vietnam. I do not blame him for that. If I were in his position I would have too. People of my age had to deal with getting drafted into a war that many were getting killed and wounded. in Many did not think we should have been involved in that war. Almost everybody had friends that were there . It was scary. But man up. Bush had no war experience. So they attacked those who actually did. He found people who would say McCain blabbed and didn’t have it so bad. They found people who would diminish Kerrys war experiences. It was dishonest and shameful . That describes Bush and his neocons. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2008, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swift-boating-john-mccain/437107/82 "2008-02-13T16:34:18Z")
The Swift Boaters had numerous criticisms against Kerry - and in fairness each of them ought to be examined separately. One criticism was over the Purple Hearts and the wounds - and I think we all can agree that whatever case the group wanted to make, they couldn’t prove it to the satisfaction of almost anybody. The second was over extravagant claims like Christmas in Cambodia - and these charges led to retraction and clarification of many of these by Kerry. The charge that Kerry aided the enemy and demoralized POWs still in Vietnam with his 1971 testimony in the Fulbright Hearings was more problematic for Kerry, as were the other details of Kerry’s antiwar activity. These, however, weren’t because the Swift Boats were making outlandish claims on that particular front - they weren’t - but because Kerry had a conflict in his personal history between his service and this very vigorous advocacy, and he never addressed throughout his political life the contradictions they presented. So on balance, the Swift Boats overreached on the claims of wounds and medals. Everything else not only was fair game, but areas where Kerry had some explaining to do, to say the very least. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2008, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swift-boating-john-mccain/437107/83 "2008-02-13T16:38:31Z")
Care to explain what those “contradictions” are? Something along the lines of “not supporting the troops in a time of war”, perhaps? :dubious: Or is that just more smokescreen? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2008, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swift-boating-john-mccain/437107/84 "2008-02-13T16:54:24Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] The charge that Kerry aided the enemy and demoralized POWs still in Vietnam with his 1971 testimony in the Fulbright Hearings was more problematic for Kerry, as were the other details of Kerry’s antiwar activity. These, however, weren’t because the Swift Boats were making outlandish claims on that particular front - they weren’t - but because Kerry had a conflict in his personal history between his service and this very vigorous advocacy, and he never addressed throughout his political life the contradictions they presented. So on balance, the Swift Boats overreached on the claims of wounds and medals. Everything else not only was fair game, but areas where Kerry had some explaining to do, to say the very least. [/QUOTE] What explaining? Kerry’s war service was honorable and his anti-war service more honorable still. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2008, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swift-boating-john-mccain/437107/85 "2008-02-13T17:32:41Z")
On balance .Kerry and McCain went and fought for the country. Repubs usually like that. They disparaged their service for purely political reasons. They scrounged for every possible trash dump looking for something to hang their hats on. It was shameful and trying to find a justification just compounds the crime. Mr. Moto you are a republican like the rest. You will leap on any scrap and present it like it is meaningful. I think you know who went and who did not. Its just you have your head so far up the republicans asses that the only light you see comes from Dick Cheneys nostril holes. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2008, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swift-boating-john-mccain/437107/86 "2008-02-13T20:19:15Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] What explaining? Kerry’s war service was honorable and his anti-war service more honorable still. [/QUOTE] There’s a very wide gulf between honorable and beyond question or reproach, and John Kerry isn’t on the far side of that one. Not many men are. If a POW hears his 1971 testimony from behind bars in the Hanoi Hilton, and gets irritated by that, who am I to tell him his opinion is wrong? Who am I to tell him he can’t put that opinion on the air? Now, that opinion can be countered, refuted, placed in context of other actions, but all of that would be, well, explaining. Which is what I said above. Kerry never in his public life addressed these concerns some people had with him. He went into that race actually thinking he’d appeal to veterans and antiwar voters both - a terribly naive view probably borne of never having much opposition in races in Massachusetts. Thus he had to face this in a campaign - and the results weren’t pretty. Compare that to Bob Kerrey, who faced media exposes of his Vietnam service with far more openness and candor. Plus Bob Kerrey’s past never caused veterans to oppose him in any kind of organized way. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2008, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swift-boating-john-mccain/437107/87 "2008-02-13T20:41:23Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] There’s a very wide gulf between honorable and beyond question or reproach, and John Kerry isn’t on the far side of that one. Not many men are. [/quote] That’s true, anyone can be swiftboated if you’re willing to do a little lying and little deliberate obtuseing. Well, maybe a LOT of deliberate obtuseing. Fact is, John Kerry went to Veitnam, led a Swiftboat, got his ass shot at in combat. George Bush protected the skies over Texas from, uh, stuff. It was a huge lie from beginning to end, and everybody knows it. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2008, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swift-boating-john-mccain/437107/88 "2008-02-13T20:43:57Z")
[QUOTE=Evil Captor] Fact is, John Kerry went to Veitnam, led a Swiftboat, got his ass shot at in combat. George Bush protected the skies over Texas from, uh, stuff. It was a huge lie from beginning to end, and everybody knows it. [/QUOTE] Everybody? I missed John Kerry’s inaugural address. Bet it was just swell. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2008, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swift-boating-john-mccain/437107/89 "2008-02-13T20:50:29Z")
[QUOTE=Evil Captor] Fact is, John Kerry went to Veitnam, led a Swiftboat, got his ass shot at in combat. [/QUOTE] I have a question for you. Why would you accept Kerry’s accounts of his service and his activism afterward at face value and dismiss the criticism of veterans who, by and large, had service records just as heroic as his? I said above which of the Swift Boat charges I was inclined to believe and which I wasn’t - but you would dismiss all of them. These men weren’t serving in Texas, were they? And how do you account for the fact that Kerry changed his story concerning the Cambodia missions? ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2008, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swift-boating-john-mccain/437107/90 "2008-02-13T21:26:57Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Everybody? I missed John Kerry’s inaugural address. Bet it was just swell. [/QUOTE] So your final “clever” thought is that a victory justifies everything? Going to keep that feeling in 2009? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2008, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swift-boating-john-mccain/437107/91 "2008-02-13T22:01:24Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Fact is, John Kerry went to Veitnam, led a Swiftboat, got his ass shot at in combat. George Bush protected the skies over Texas from, uh, stuff. It was a huge lie from beginning to end, and everybody knows it. [QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Everybody? [/QUOTE] Yes. Including you. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2008, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swift-boating-john-mccain/437107/92 "2008-02-13T22:28:32Z")
[QUOTE=vison] Do you ever get the feeling that you’ve wandered through some portal into an alternate universe? I sure as hell hate to think this is the “real” one. [/QUOTE] “This is no movie, this is real!” “_Which_ reel?” ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2008, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swift-boating-john-mccain/437107/93 "2008-02-13T22:36:56Z")
> [@](#): > > Pickens’s formal reply: > Dear Senator Kerry: > So glad to hear from you regarding the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth political ad campaign, and an offer I made public at an American Spectator dinner in Washington, D.C. last week. I am intrigued by your letter, and am certainly open to your challenge. > > My concern at the Spectator Dinner was, and continues to be, that you and other political figures were and are maligning the Swift Boat Veterans, and I want to prevent this important part of American history from being unfairly portrayed. > > In order to disprove the accuracy of the Swift Boat ads, I will ultimately need you to provide the following: 1) The journal you maintained during your service in Vietnam. 2) Your military record, specifically your service records for the years 1971-1978, and copies of all movies and tapes made during your service. > > When you have done so, if you can then prove anything in the ads was materially untrue, I will gladly award $1 million. As you know, I have been a long and proud supporter of the American military and veterans’ causes. I now challenge you to make this commitment: If you cannot prove anything in the Swift Boat ads to be untrue, that you will make a $1 million gift to the charity I am choosing – the Medal of Honor Foundation. > > Sincerely, > > T. Boone Pickens So, has Kerry released his information yet? ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2008, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swift-boating-john-mccain/437107/94 "2008-02-13T22:47:20Z")
[QUOTE=Algher] So, has Kerry released his information yet? [/QUOTE] If only he’d won, it wouldn’t have mattered what he did! -Joe ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2008, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swift-boating-john-mccain/437107/95 "2008-02-14T00:24:25Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Kerry never in his public life addressed these concerns some people had with him. [/quote] The best way for a public figure to address a lie or a smear is often not to address it at all - by doing so, one gives it credence. > [@](#): > > He went into that race actually thinking he’d appeal to veterans and antiwar voters both As a man of honor, no, he wasn’t used to having it questioned so baselessly, no. That may well have been naive - but then which type of behavior ought we citizens to reward? > [@](#): > > Compare that to Bob Kerrey, who faced media exposes of his Vietnam service with far more openness and candor. Cite that John Kerry’s discussion of his own service lacked candor? If it’s just your opinion, upon what do you base it? The SVBT lies themselves? > [@](#): > > Plus Bob Kerrey’s past never caused veterans to oppose him in any kind of organized way. True, he did not take quite as public a stance in support of what the solid and growing majority at the time had already come to know. But why do you count an act of honor and courage \*against \* a man? > [@](#): > > Why would you accept Kerry’s accounts of his service and his activism afterward at face value and dismiss the criticism of veterans who, by and large, had service records just as heroic as his? Because he was _there_, and the men who were there with him concur, and because the accounts you choose to accept instead are from men who were in fact not there, and suddenly changed their views at a most convenient time, and for pretty transparent reasons, too. You bought into a partisan smear campaign, buddy. It’s okay, we’re all human, we all get fooled sometimes. What’s \*not \* okay is to deny it once it’s been shown to you - as it has, many times. Then you’re not only acting foolishly but dishonorably as well. **Algher** , has Pickens manned up yet to what he was actually offering to wager, or is he still weaseling? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2008, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swift-boating-john-mccain/437107/96 "2008-02-14T00:46:50Z")
[Kerry’s response, btw](http://www.johnkerry.com/2007/11/20/senator-kerry-replies-to-pickens-moving-the-goalposts) > [@](#): > > I must remind you, however, that this was and is your “challenge,” not mine. You are, after all, the one who said explicitly at the dinner — in a way that was calculated to challenge any naysayer — that you would give one million dollars “to anyone who could show that \*\*anything the SBVT said \*\* was false.” ([RedState.Com](http://RedState.Com)) These were your words — and nowhere did you ever suggest, as you are now trying to, that your challenge referred specifically and exclusively to any advertising by the SBVT. > > As you know, the lies of the SBVT were not confined just to their ads; they were a constant barrage of television, radio, Internet, speeches, and forums in which — significantly bankrolled by you — they launched and repeated lie after lie. Your challenge expressly stood behind all of their allegations. > > … > > I was interested to read in your response that you don’t want to see the SBVT “maligned,” and that you aim “to prevent this important part of American history from being unfairly portrayed.” I accepted your offer precisely because I want to prevent the honorable records of the courageous men who served with me from being maligned by the repeated lies of this organization. I want to see the word “Swiftboat” restored to its original meaning — synonymous with honorable service to country, not political lies aimed to distort and divide. I would hope that your interests should also be in protecting the record of all those who served our country. And there the matter remains. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2008, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swift-boating-john-mccain/437107/97 "2008-02-14T01:03:12Z")
[Your one-stop shopping source for swiftboat facts](http://swiftvets.eriposte.com/). For the Cambodia item specifically, since **Mr. Moto** insists on its importance: > [@](#): > > SBV claims that Kerry could not have been inside Cambodia on Christmas Eve of 1968 as Kerry claims. However, there is no evidence validating their assertion. Kerry was known to be very close to the Cambodian border on Christmas Eve of 1968 and he was independently reported to have been inside Cambodia in January and February of 1969. No one can prove that he was NOT across the Cambodian border on Christmas night in 1968. Two of his own crewmates confirm they were near the Cambodia border on Christmas eve 1968. Navy records and calculations suggest Kerry’s boat could have very well been inside Cambodia on that night. There is additional evidence to suggest that SBV’s claims are false. Indeed, SBV member John O’Neill showed himself to be a liar extraordinaire since he had stated to then-President Richard Nixon that he was “in Cambodia” himself, in a swift boat, even though he keeps claiming today that he was never in Cambodia! > > Even though SBV claims that three of Kerry’s crewmen disagree that they were inside Cambodia, only one crewman (Steve Gardner) has stated a disagreement publicly - and his recollection contradicts that of another crewmate of Kerry’s as well as the documented history. > > SBV’s claim that Kerry’s own diary shows he was 55 miles from the Cambodian border on Christmas Eve 1968 selectively omits the part that refers to Kerry having been at or near the Cambodian border the same day - thus, falsely impugning Kerry as a liar. > > SBV’s claims that Kerry would have been court-martialed if he had indeed been inside Cambodia is also false. The military record shows that inadvertent or intentional incursions into Cambodia back then, with no court-martials and sometimes with awards - were not unusual . ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2008, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swift-boating-john-mccain/437107/98 "2008-02-14T01:49:26Z")
I didn’t say it was terribly important - just that it was a claim made by the group that should be evaluated. And the fact is that the campaign explicitly said that the senator’s memory was faulty - he had probably gone to Cambodia in early 1969, not Christmas of 1968. Which probably would have been fine had Kerry not made several public comments about the former claim. Again, it was something he had to explain. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2008, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swift-boating-john-mccain/437107/99 "2008-02-14T02:51:50Z")
The care with which you word that leads me to suspect that’s all you got, which is to say bupkis. You appear to be trying to squeeze some implication out of “had to explain, clarify”. Is having to explain some reliable indication of dishonesty? Or are you merely hoping to imply something you cannot prove? Trial by innuendo? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2008, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swift-boating-john-mccain/437107/100 "2008-02-14T02:53:01Z")
One candidate went to Nam and fought. One went went to Texas and the Nat. Guard due to power of his father. The one that went and fought needs to explain. to your slanted satisfaction that he fought hard enough to meet your standards. The one that stayed home is a patriot. Kerry owes you no explanation whatsoever. He was in the battle and fought. Who are you to demand he tell you where he was at any given time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swift-boating-john-mccain/437107.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swift-boating-john-mccain/437107.md?page=6)