# Swiftboat Vets startin' to look pretty good. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 24, 2004, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875 "2004-09-24T14:26:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/1 "2004-09-24T14:26:26Z")
**Washington Post** reporter Janet Cook fabricated a story of an 8-year old heroin addict that won her a Pulitzer, which was ultimately withdrawn after the story was found to be fraudulent. **New York Times** reporter Jason Blair was found to have plagarized and fabricated news stories. Now, **CBS News** has used forged government documents (a criminal offense) in an attempt to influence the the electoral process of America. (And CBS wants to protect it’s source. What a joke.) Comparatively, The Swiftboat Veterans for Truth are starting to look pretty credible. Oftentimes, when goring liberal sacred cows, the attacker is confronted with the “can I get a cite for that” defense. And if one produces a “cite” that is not from an approved mainstream source, the “defenders of the faith” will belittle and dismiss the information as being from a source with an agenda. ## But, do the so-called mainstream media really exhibit any more credibility than sources labeled “right-wing extremist”? A liberal’s worst nightmare: A redneck that graduated from high school prior to 1977. ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/2 "2004-09-24T14:30:57Z")
Oh, and I almost forgot, **NBC** news magazine, Dateline, rigged a pick-up truck to explode on impact to malign an American corporation and **CNN** produced a fraudulent documentary, claiming that the United States military used poison gas on deserters, in an effort to equate the American military complex with the Iraqi military of Saddam Hussein. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/3 "2004-09-24T14:33:09Z")
> [@Razorsharp](#): > > But, do the so-called mainstream media really exhibit any more credibility than sources labeled “right-wing extremist”? Yes. Mainsteam news outlets get criticized when they do something wrong. Supporters of right-wing liars like the Swiftboaters leap through hoops to try to salvage reasons why the lies are not actually so bad. ---
**Author:** ![BJMoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5fc32e/32.png) [@BJMoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BJMoose)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/4 "2004-09-24T14:43:16Z")
Holy Cecil! Are you _really_ trying to argue that the occasional failings of journalists automatically improves the credibility of the “Swifties”? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/5 "2004-09-24T14:50:54Z")
No, **Razorback** is arguing that a self-correcting mechanism to retract errors and lies, if used by a group of disparate publications that he deems too “Leftist” is inferior to deliberate liars who refuse to retract their stories after they have been proven false if the liars are a group that he perceives to be sufficiently “Right.” (You see the same logic among people who claim that Evolutionary theory is inferior to Creationist dogma because the Evolutionary scientists actually correct their mistakes while the Creationists’ story does not change.) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/6 "2004-09-24T14:58:46Z")
Oh? And does your story change when I point out to you that Hillary Clinton has _both_ MicroSoft Word _and_ a laser printer! What does your liberal media have to say about that?! Case closed! Praise the Leader! ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/7 "2004-09-24T14:59:15Z")
Don’t forget Mr. Glass at the New Republic. ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/8 "2004-09-24T15:02:41Z")
> [@BJMoose](#): > > Holy Cecil! > > Are you _really_ trying to argue that the occasional failings of journalists automatically improves the credibility of the “Swifties”? “Occasional failings”?? Boy, that’s whatcha call sugar coatin’ it. The examples I listed were not “failings”, they were outright deceptions by the so-called mainstream media. ---
**Author:** ![SpartanDC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b2d939/32.png) [@SpartanDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpartanDC)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/9 "2004-09-24T15:08:59Z")
> [@Razorsharp](#): > > “Occasional failings”?? Boy, that’s whatcha call sugar coatin’ it. > > The examples I listed were not “failings”, they were outright deceptions by the so-called mainstream media. OK, I"ll play that game. **Razorback** , are you really trying to argue that the outright deceptions of a few journalists automatically improves the credibility of the Swifties? Instead of playing semantic games, answer the question posed to you. ---
**Author:** ![BJMoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5fc32e/32.png) [@BJMoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BJMoose)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/10 "2004-09-24T15:20:55Z")
What **SNenc** said (e beat me to it)! (I’ve spent more than my share of time around journalists, mostly electronic. Most of them, most of the time, have neither the smarts, the motivation, or the time to be deliberately deceptive.) ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/11 "2004-09-24T15:29:01Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > No, **Razorback** is arguing that a self-correcting mechanism to retract errors and lies,… In the case of CBS, that “mechanism” wasn’t “self-correcting.” And that was the problem there. I suspect that left to its own internal inspections there would have been no “self-correction” at all on the part of CBS. CBS had to almost be beat into submission from the outside. So, best to praise the Bloggers and that ‘other-correcting mechanism’ in the CBS case. ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/12 "2004-09-24T15:44:58Z")
> [@SNenc](#): > > OK, I"ll play that game. > **Razorback** , are you really trying to argue that the outright deceptions of a few journalists automatically improves the credibility of the Swifties? > > Instead of playing semantic games, answer the question posed to you. First off, I ain’t from Arkansas… it’s **Razorsharp**. Now, if you notice, I wrote, > [@](#): > > Comparatively, The Swiftboat Veterans for Truth are starting to look pretty credible. Did you see that? **Comparatively**. Yes, comparatively, it does improve their image. See, you are the one using the semantics to bolster your rebuttal. ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/13 "2004-09-24T15:47:59Z")
> [@Tigers2B1](#): > > In the case of CBS, that “mechanism” wasn’t “self-correcting.” And that was the problem there. I suspect that left to its own internal inspections there would have been no “self-correction” at all on the part of CBS. CBS had to almost be beat into submission from the outside. You are exactly right. “Self-correcting mechanism”, HA! I suppose that’s a euphemism for “getting caught in a lie”. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/14 "2004-09-24T15:58:57Z")
I think **tomndebb** was referring to a correcting mechanism in society/media at large not internal to CBS. In fact only deliberate misreading of his post would say otherwise: > [@](#): > > _tomndebb said:_ > … a self-correcting mechanism to retract errors and lies, if used by a **group of disparate publications** that he deems too “Leftist” (my bold) ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/15 "2004-09-24T15:59:11Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Oh? And does your story change when I point out to you that Hillary Clinton has _both_ MicroSoft Word _and_ a laser printer! What does your liberal media have to say about that?! > > Case closed! Praise the Leader! Huh??? Forget your medication today? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/16 "2004-09-24T16:06:22Z")
Hmmm, on reflection perhaps it wasn’t so obvious- especially when seeing everything from the perch you guys seem to inhabit. Still I believe **tomndebb** ’s point refers to a wider “self correcting mechanism” > [@](#): > > _razorsharp said:_ > Did you see that? Comparatively. Yes, comparatively, it does improve their image. See, you are the one using the semantics to bolster your rebuttal. Yeah I remember being trapped in the bottom of a latrine. After the fifth guy crapped on me I thought to myself, you know that first guy wasn’t so bad… ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/17 "2004-09-24T16:08:53Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I think **tomndebb** was referring to a correcting mechanism in society/media at large not internal to CBS. In fact only deliberate misreading of his post would say otherwise: Ain’t no deliberate misreading of nuthin’. > [@](#): > > tomndebb said: > … a self-correcting mechanism to retract errors and lies Use of the word **retract** would indicate that it would be an action of CBS’s own volition, which it clearly was not. Instead, as **Tigers2B1** pointed out, it had to be beaten out of 'em. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/18 "2004-09-24T16:10:22Z")
> [@Razorsharp](#): > > Huh??? Forget your medication today? That’s what **luci** was sayin’. Something that you may decide to include in you conclusion is the percentage of right to wrong in the histories of the compared groups. Obviously the news sources you’ve mentioned have put out tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of stories. Pesumably the vast majority of them were reliable. However the SBV have just a few. So I’d expect that the ration of right to wrong stories heavily favors the aforementioned sources who have admitted that they published falsehoods as opposed to the single source you cite who (to the best of my knowledge) has not acknowledged publishing falsehoods. But, you may not decide to consider this reliability ration when you make you case. If you do noty, I can certainly understand why. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/19 "2004-09-24T16:12:12Z")
Umm that’s supposed to be ratio, not ration ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/20 "2004-09-24T16:13:45Z")
> [@BJMoose](#): > > (I’ve spent more than my share of time around journalists, mostly electronic. Most of them, most of the time, have neither the smarts, the motivation, or the time to be deliberately deceptive.) That could describe any profession. Before assuming bad intentions I apply Occam’s Razor and laziness wins nearly every time. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875.md?page=2)