# Swiftboat Vets startin' to look pretty good. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 24, 2004, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875 "2004-09-24T14:26:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/201 "2004-09-27T03:45:00Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > You bet your ass I do. Then you’re either woefully misinformed or in some intense denial. > [@](#): > > I beleive that the vast majorit of veterans served honorably. Non sequitur. No one has said otherwise. Most of them _did_ serve honorably. They also knew that war crimes were happening every day. > [@](#): > > Actually the full quote is: > > “There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this is ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down. And I believe that the men who designed these, the men who designed the free fire zone, the men who ordered us, the men who signed off the air raid strike areas, I think these men, by the letter of the law, the same letter of the law that tried Lieutenant Calley, are war criminals.” > > and here’s another: > > “We established an American presence in most cases by showing the flag and firing at sampans and villages along the banks. Those were our instructions, but they seemed so out of line that we finally began to go ashore, against our orders, and investigate the villages that were supposed to be our targets. We discovered we were butchering a lot of innocent people, and morale became so low among the officers on those ‘swift boats’ that we were called back to Saigon for special instructions from Gen. Abrams. He told us we were doing the right thing. He said our efforts would help win the war in the long run. That’s when I realized I could never remain silent about the realities of the war in Vietnam.” > > And actually no, I have no problem with free-fire zones. They actually put more responsibility on the commander in the field, and simply state that there are areas where a commander may fire first on encountering the enemy, and not have to wait either for permission or to be shot at. > > The fact that Kerry misrepresents this is yet another lie. How did he misrepresent it? And if you have no problem with it then why do you call Kerry “scum” for going along with it? **Seva** , I think you may have confused **Scylla** with **Sam Stone**. An entirely understandable mistake under the circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/202 "2004-09-27T03:45:21Z")
[http://www.thememoryhole.org/phoenix/](http://www.thememoryhole.org/phoenix/) > [@](#): > > Created by the CIA in Saigon in 1967, Phoenix was a program aimed at “neutralizing”—through assassination, kidnapping, and systematic torture—the civilian infrastructure that supported the Viet Cong insurgency in South Vietnam. It was a terrifying “final solution” that violated the Geneva Conventions and traditional American ideas of human morality. Regarding the military jails in Iraq, I can see that someone did remember history. One more example that shows that a lot has not been told about what commanders did allow in Vietnam: [http://www.thememoryhole.org/unacceptable-target.htm](http://www.thememoryhole.org/unacceptable-target.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/203 "2004-09-27T03:49:14Z")
> [@Plan B](#): > > I went there and found some “he said, she said stuff” but no single instance of a lie by the Swifties. Nothing along the lines of “I was in Cambodia during Christmas, 1968, when Richard Nixon was conducting an illegal war inCambodia.” > > So I guess the Swifties are telling the truth. > > Perhaps you all might be interested in this link which I came across while checking other venues: > > [http://beldar.blogs.com/beldarblog/2004/09/a\_challenge\_to\_.html](http://beldar.blogs.com/beldarblog/2004/09/a_challenge_to_.html) You know, what you are doing is pretty rude. Come onto the board, engage in discussion. People respond to you in good faith. There is a possibility of real interaction here. But no, you aren’t interested. All you want to do is dish dirt on one candidate, right? All the while pretending to have some interest in uncovering what is going on. It’s nasty. Like I could say to you, “hang on, didn’t the Swifities say Kerry only served one, abbreviated tour” as if you were genuine in your queries. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/204 "2004-09-27T03:53:21Z")
> [@DiogeneS the Synic](#): > > **SevaS** , I think you may have confuSed **Scylla** with **Sam Stone**. > > An entirely underStandable miStake under the SircumStanceS. Correct! I apologise. S’s everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/205 "2004-09-27T03:54:50Z")
> [@](#): > > You know, what you are doing is pretty rude. Come onto the board, engage in discussion. People respond to you in good faith. There is a possibility of real interaction here. > > But no, you aren’t interested. All you want to do is dish dirt on one candidate, right? All the while pretending to have some interest in uncovering what is going on. It’s nasty. So basically, he disagrees with you, so he’s ‘rude’. Maybe he just doesn’t agree with you. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/206 "2004-09-27T04:03:24Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > So basically, he disagrees with you, so he’s ‘rude’. Maybe he just doesn’t agree with you. In this case, both. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/207 "2004-09-27T04:04:04Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > So basically, he disagrees with you, so he’s ‘rude’. Maybe he just doesn’t agree with you. Nah, being rude is to jump in and act like all the evidence against the swifters is “bogus” implying that none of your points was discussed to death before. And no, I am not confusing you with **Scylla**. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/208 "2004-09-27T04:04:32Z")
Not at all, merely ill-informed. No I don’t mean that. A few things give plan b away. - The not-actually-the-quote in quotation marks - The mock-innocent tone 'Hey I just heard of these guys, what do you think? - No authentic response to such replies as s/he receieved. No, 'Hmm I disagree for a, b & c. ’ _followed up_ by - Instant benediction of the Swifties, - the blog readily at hand C’mon Scylla, be real. Look I value genuine argument and disagreement but I don’t see it here. The real deal follows a fairly stock and predictable pattern. It just isn’t here. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/209 "2004-09-27T04:06:43Z")
> [@sevastopol](#): > > C’mon **Scylla** , be real. Oh man, what a day. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/210 "2004-09-27T04:32:31Z")
Good God, now we have to re-live the Vietnam War in all of its glory not only by going through a new war with too many similarities but now still arguing out the old one. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/211 "2004-09-27T04:33:44Z")
Old ignorance dies hard. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/212 "2004-09-27T04:41:27Z")
> [@jshore](#): > > Good God, now we have to re-live the Vietnam War in all of its glory not only by going through a new war with too many similarities but now still arguing out the old one. I think it was Karl Marx who said, on the occasion of the coup d’etat by which French President Louis Napoleon Bonaparte made himself Emperor Napoleon III: “When history repeats itself, it does so the first time as tragedy, the second time as farce.” ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/213 "2004-09-27T04:42:10Z")
I can’t sincerely, by this time, be angry at this. I can only laugh at the spectacle of extreme rightists saying from the beginning that the swifters may not be truthful, but they deserve to be heard, that Kerry served honorably, that in the end the testimony of swifters is not damaging to Kerry… but Kerry is scum anyhow… No, the scum is in the white house right now: [http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=TLXPY1BMWPRXKCRBAEKSFEY?type=topNews&storyID=6335031](http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=TLXPY1BMWPRXKCRBAEKSFEY?type=topNews&storyID=6335031) > [@](#): > > Democratic presidential challenger John Kerry ripped into President Bush on Sunday for saying he had no regrets over his “Mission Accomplished” speech on Iraq and would do it again. \*We voted a Bush out and we shall do it again… and we shall do it again… we did it before… we’ll do it again… \* 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/214 "2004-09-27T14:28:56Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > So wait, the “liberal” media gets things wrong and apologizes. The right wing media gets things wrong, and generally doesn’t even acknowledge it. Clearly, the “liberal” media is less trustworthy. Is that the basic thrust of the argument? So wait, the “Swiftboat Vets for Truth” is the “Right Wing Media”??? That’s the thrust of your argument. ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/215 "2004-09-27T14:39:09Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > 😛😛😛 > > Growl and splutter all you like, **Raz!** Everybody in this thread can see you just got Dope-served! > > 😃 Really, why do you think they call it DOPE. ## BTW: Nice smilies, nuthin like a touch of class. Dopers and Freepers… Same birds, just a different color plumage. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/216 "2004-09-27T16:24:42Z")
> [@Razorsharp](#): > > Really, why do you think they call it DOPE. Whatever the reason, I’m certain it wouldn’t be a descriptor of you who was served. ---
**Author:** ![BJMoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5fc32e/32.png) [@BJMoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BJMoose)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/217 "2004-09-27T16:31:26Z")
So, **Razorsharp** , didcha every figure out why the “so-called mainstream media” is so called? ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/218 "2004-09-27T19:26:26Z")
> [@BJMoose](#): > > So, **Razorsharp** , didcha every figure out why the “so-called mainstream media” is so called? Didn’t have to, already know. Obviously you don’t though, being that you “think” that the reason has to do with a credibility factor. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/219 "2004-09-27T19:51:57Z")
> [@Razorsharp](#): > > Didn’t have to, already know. > > Obviously you don’t though, being that you “think” that the reason has to do with a credibility factor. If you know the answer, please share it with the rest of us. This board is no place for teasing us with your secrets! ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/220 "2004-09-27T20:01:44Z")
I’m especially amused by **Razorsharp** ’s, er, unique interpretation of the use of quotation marks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875.md?page=12)