# Swiftboat Vets startin' to look pretty good. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 24, 2004, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875 "2004-09-24T14:26:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/221 "2004-09-27T21:24:44Z")
**Scylla** : Regarding this point: > [@](#): > > _So, I read through the books. What have the swiftvets convinced me of concerning Kerry in Vietnam? Was he ambitious and opportunistic? Yeah, I think so? Was he a medal hunter? Yeah, I think so. Did he get his purple hearts for minor injuries? Yeah, I think so. Did he make some tactical mistakes? Yup. Was he trying to build credentials as a war hero for a political career? Yup. It looks that way._ This is, approximately, my take on Kerry as well. To be precise, I think he was also probably ambitious and opportunistic. I would not be surprised to learn that he exploited the system to the best of his ability in order to secure medals for himself and his men. I’m not qualified to judge whether or not he made any tactical mistakes myself, so I’ll leave that point alone. The last claim, however, doesn’t sit well with me. I suppose that one could argue that Kerry chose to volunteer for a second tour in order to build up his military credentials. But the Swiftvets are quick to point out that when Kerry volunteered for command of a Swiftboat, the assignment was relatively safe. This was before Sealords kicked in and the Navy began to employ Swiftboats for inland patrols. So – if Kerry was out to build up credentials as a war hero, why would he have volunteered for this relatively safe duty? It seems to me that the Swiftvets want it both ways. In addition, the argument that Kerry was just in it for the war hero stuff simply doesn’t make sense to me. As if he was so adroit with the use of an M-79 that he knew exactly how to fire it so as to be grazed, though not seriously wounded, by shrapnel, _twice_ in a four month tour? Sorry, that beggars belief. Rather, I suspect that Kerry was doing pretty much what practically everyone else was doing at the time, namely, trying to get his ass out of there in one piece. > [@](#): > > - The main theme of the book is that when Kerry came back he told a lot of lies about his service and impugned the people he served with falsely. To support this, they have direct quotes from Kerry or his authorized biographers wherein he contradicts himself.\* This is actually my general take on the Swiftvets real complaint, as well. They hate Kerry for what he did when he came back, or, at the very least, they find it hypocritical of him to portray himself as a war hero now, after having made the statements he made in the 70s. Again, while I disagree with the Swiftvets on this point, I can at least understand why they might feel that way. I think they go overboard, however, when, on top of the criticism of his behavior after his return, they try to smear Kerry’s entire service, spread lies about it, portray him as a opportunistic coward, and so forth. _Especially_ when one compares Kerry’s term of service with that of Bush. > [@](#): > > - For example, this whole thing about whether or not it would be possible for Kerry to get a Swiftboat into Cambodia from where he was on the day in question is kind of moot. Kerry places himself in more than one place at this time. His biographer has stated that the XMas in Cambodia story is obviously wrong. The Kerry campaing has conceded as much and said that he was actually in Cambodia at other times on secret missions (Y’know when the plotline gets stolen by Apocolypse now.)\* Couple of points. First off, **Sam** has claimed that he doesn’t believe Kerry was _ever_ in Cambodia, and also refers to sources like the one quoted above. Yet it is, of course, entirely possible that Kerry was in Cambodia on a different date, and subsequently got confused about the dates in question. That’s not impossible, you know. However, in these terms, the question isn’t moot at all. **Sam** uses cites like this to bolster his claim that Kerry is lying outright. You also challenged someone to present an example of the Swiftvets being “full of it.” Well, here’s one. I have a whole bunch. By the way, you’re right, I didn’t mean to be unclear; the quote in question is taken from the 3rd Chapter. Let’s reiterate, using your objections: > [@](#): > > - “Close” is not “and even beyond.” 55 miles from Cambodia is “close” compared to say, New Jersey. What you are doing with your cites it appears to me is getting confused about two different things. Unfit For Command is giving the specific circumstances of Kerry’s unit at the time in question, December 25, 1968.\* Okay, let’s not mark words here. Let’s just say close. Or let’s be even more specific, and say within 5 clicks. The linked map, if you would care to inspect it, clearly shows that Chau Doc is right on the Cambodian border. And the text tells us plainly that by the end of November 1968, Swiftboats were patrolling freely between Chau Doc and Ha Tien (also on the Cambodian border, but further west). If you look at the map, you will see that this is a long stretch of river ways and marsh right up against the Cambodian border. And we know that Swiftboats were involved in these patrols, which are far to the north of Sa Dec. This was by the end of November, 1968, and unless you have information to the contrary, it would seem absurd to assert that a month later, in the December, Swiftboats had suddenly been withdrawn from that area. > [@](#): > > - Your cite is giving an overview of Operation Sealord over its entire course. You are conflating the general and the specific. Additionally, I am under the impression that Sealords didn’t get in close to Cambodia until late Spring early summer of '69, but I might be wrong about that.\* Well, according to my Sealords history, posted previously, you are wrong. > [@](#): > > - Finally, if you are right and there were Swiftboats operating on the border on that day, it doesn’t show a lie. They can make errors without being liars.\* Oh, I see. They can make errors, but naturally, if Kerry makes an error, it’s a lie. But I actually can envision two possibilities. I assume Tom Andersson must have known about Operation Sealord. So, either 1) he’s lying, or 2) his statement has been taken out of context. He could have been referring to the period prior to Sealords, for example, when he claimed that Swift boats weren’t allowed to operate north of Sa Dec. > [@](#): > > - Than you have the paragraph you quote. What you leave out though are the key earlier phrase specifically placing this paragraph in referance to Christmas 1968, and not as a general description of Kerry’s duties at all times. > > “During Christmas 1968, Kerry was stationed at Coastal Division 13 in Cat Lo…”\* Maybe, I’m not intentionally leaving out stuff, but I don’t have the entire quote handy anymore: I read the pre-release of Chapter 3 on the net. I’m not 100% sure where Kerry was stationed, and I understood that he served with Costal Division 11, not 13. But the point still stands: the Swifties are claiming in this passage that _no_ Swift boats were allowed to operate North of Sa Dec in December of 1968. Again, I point out that this claim is demonstrably false (unless, of course, the Sealords history I’ve cited is wrong). > [@](#): > > - The Chapter than goes on to quote all the living commanders and superiors stating that Kerry was not in Cambodia in Christmas and was never ordered into Cambodia.\* I also addressed this previously and explained why I thought it was misleading. In truth, I suspect, the only person against whom Kerry’s word stands is his immediate supervisor. > [@](#): > > - We can hunt for the transcript if you really really want it. Personally, it’s a minor point either way, and I don’t feel like hunting. I just typed a whole bunch of shit here, quoting and everything, and the idea of searching Foxnews for a small point is kind of depressing. Your call.\* I’m not the sort of person that sends his debating opponents on pointless cite chases. But I would appreciate it if you would at least not make those sorts of statements without stronger evidential backing, since it smacks of spreading misinformation. > [@](#): > > - Good question. It is three to one, and I can’t prove it either way. It seems logical to me that somebody has to be in command of the boat. Kerry, who is in training, seems an unlikely choice to be placed in charge. It seems more likely that he would go along for the ride with an experienced commander to gain experience and see how things are done.\* Kerry had already served one tour of duty; within 9 days he was commanding a Swift boat all on his own. Your argument here doesn’t convince me, nor does it explain how the other two people whom we know were present agree with Kerry’s version of events. The only person who claims Schacte was on the boat is Schacte himself. Could he have gotten the dates mixed up? But, on the other hand, there is of course no way for me to know with any certainty either. This one’s a judgment call, so I doubt it can be resolved. What about Hibbert’s memory? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/222 "2004-09-28T00:36:00Z")
> [@Mr. Svinlesha](#): > > **Scylla** : > The last claim, however, doesn’t sit well with me. I suppose that one could argue that Kerry chose to volunteer for a second tour in order to build up his military credentials. But the Swiftvets are quick to point out that when Kerry volunteered for command of a Swiftboat, the assignment was relatively safe. This was before Sealords kicked in and the Navy began to employ Swiftboats for inland patrols. So – if Kerry was out to build up credentials as a war hero, why would he have volunteered for this relatively safe duty? It seems to me that the Swiftvets want it both ways. This doesn’t sit well if you don’t read **Tour of Duty**. My impression is that Kerry didn’t want to go to combat. He says as much. Once there, he tries to make the best of it. So, it is kind of having it both ways. > [@](#): > > In addition, the argument that Kerry was just in it for the war hero stuff simply doesn’t make sense to me. Me neither. It’s not an either or. Probably he wanted to serve **and** be a hero **and** not get killed. Seems perfectly rational to me, and I’d fault him if it were otherwise. > [@](#): > > As if he was so adroit with the use of an M-79 that he knew exactly how to fire it so as to be grazed, though not seriously wounded, by shrapnel, _twice_ in a four month tour? I don’t think anybody thinks he did it on purpose. > [@](#): > > They hate Kerry for what he did when he came back, or, at the very least, they find it hypocritical of him to portray himself as a war hero now, after having made the statements he made in the 70s. They do talk about their rationale on the web site and in the book. They don’t have a problem with exagerrations, or medal hunting. Their main problems are the indictment of his fellow veterans he made upon his return, and suggesting that his status as a veteran qualifies him to be President. To paraphrase O’neil, suggesting that being in combat qualifies you for a job is ridiculous. > [@](#): > > Again, while I disagree with the Swiftvets on this point, I can at least understand why they might feel that way. I think they go overboard, however, when, on top of the criticism of his behavior after his return, they try to smear Kerry’s entire service, spread lies about it, portray him as a opportunistic coward, and so forth. I haven’t caught any lies yet, but I substantially agree with this statement. I’ve had misgivings about the attack on his service as well. They feel that since Kerry misrepresented it and impugned those we served with in the process, that setting the record state is justified. > [@](#): > > _Especially_ when one compares Kerry’s term of service with that of Bush. Both men served their country honorably during their service. I have seen nothing to convince me otherwise. > [@](#): > > First off, **Sam** has claimed that he doesn’t believe Kerry was _ever_ in Cambodia, and also refers to sources like the one quoted above. Yet it is, of course, entirely possible that Kerry was in Cambodia on a different date, and subsequently got confused about the dates in question. That’s not impossible, you know. Well… He’s got his journal’s. The way he makes the statement about it being seared into his memory. Christmas is a pretty specific date. I can remember where I was on most every Christmas since I was a kid. This is a watershed moment in Kerry’s life, according to Kerry. This is when he realized that the war was a hypocritical mess. This is when he became determined to do something about it. This is a Saul on the road to Damascus having the scales lifted from his eyes. It looks like he made it up. I really think that’s pretty damaging. > [@](#): > > However, in these terms, the question isn’t moot at all. **Sam** uses cites like this to bolster his claim that Kerry is lying outright. I think he’s lying to. I doubt he was ever in Cambodia. > [@](#): > > By the way, you’re right, I didn’t mean to be unclear; the quote in question is taken from the 3rd Chapter. Let’s reiterate, using your objections:Okay, let’s not mark words here. Let’s just say close. Or let’s be even more specific, and say within 5 clicks. The linked map, if you would care to inspect it, clearly shows that Chau Doc is right on the Cambodian border. And the text tells us plainly that by the end of November 1968, Swiftboats were patrolling freely between Chau Doc and Ha Tien (also on the Cambodian border, but further west). > > If you look at the map, you will see that this is a long stretch of river ways and marsh right up against the Cambodian border. And we know that Swiftboats were involved in these patrols, which are far to the north of Sa Dec. This was by the end of November, 1968, and unless you have information to the contrary, it would seem absurd to assert that a month later, in the December, Swiftboats had suddenly been withdrawn from that area.Well, according to my Sealords history, posted previously, you are wrong.Oh, I see. They can make errors, but naturally, if Kerry makes an error, it’s a lie. That’s not the question Svin. The question isn’t whether you can get close to Cambodia. The question is whether you can get in there with a Swiftboat. If the entrances are blocked as is maintained by the Swiftees, I’d say not. To further back up their statement on this, I read how it would have been a public relations disaster to have a Swiftboat captured in Cambodia, or a helicopter, or anything else that could be shown to demonstrate that we were acting in a neutral country. Therefore, there is some good reasons to think they were pretty strict about stopping incursions into Cambodia, and not really any good ones why the would be sending Swiftboats there. > [@](#): > > But I actually can envision two possibilities. I assume Tom Andersson must have known about Operation Sealord. So, either 1) he’s lying, or 2) his statement has been taken out of context. He could have been referring to the period prior to Sealords, for example, when he claimed that Swift boats weren’t allowed to operate north of Sa Dec.Maybe, I’m not intentionally leaving out stuff, but I don’t have the entire quote handy anymore: I read the pre-release of Chapter 3 on the net. I’m not 100% sure where Kerry was stationed, and I understood that he served with Costal Division 11, not 13. But the point still stands: the Swifties are claiming in this passage that _no_ Swift boats were allowed to operate North of Sa Dec in December of 1968. Again, I point out that this claim is demonstrably false (unless, of course, the Sealords history I’ve cited is wrong).I also addressed this previously and explained why I thought it was misleading. In truth, I suspect, the only person against whom Kerry’s word stands is his immediate supervisor. What he have here Svin is a disagreement. You consider it to be a proof of a lie. I think there is questionably an innacuracy. I’m not sure there is. I can’t zoom close enough on those maps to tell. Let’s say I grant that you are correct and the statement that Anderson makes in innacurate. Is this the best you can get on the Swiftees? Because if it is, than I think there claims stand up very well, especially, say compared to Kerry who has multiple contradictory versions of many events on the record. Frankly, if you are going to say the Swiftvets are a bunch of liars, you need something better than a potential innacuracy on a minor point to prove it. > [@](#): > > I’m not the sort of person that sends his debating opponents on pointless cite chases. But I would appreciate it if you would at least not make those sorts of statements without stronger evidential backing, since it smacks of spreading misinformation. I did provide you a cite, though a secondhand one, and I did mention that I recalled it. Since it’s minor, I hoped you didn’t need me to go search. If it’s not I will, after this post. Like I said, it’s your call. You want it, I’ll go find it. > [@](#): > > Kerry had already served one tour of duty; within 9 days he was commanding a Swift boat all on his own. No. Kerry arrived in coastal squadron one, Cam Ranh Bay on November 17, 1968 for training. On December 6, 1968 he was transferred to An thoi on phu quo Island, coastal division 11 and given command of the Swiftboat PCF 44. That’s like 3 weeks. Does this innacuracy prove you a liar, the way the earlier suggested innacuracy of Anderson makes him a liar? I’m asking rhetorically of course. > [@](#): > > Your argument here doesn’t convince me, nor does it explain how the other two people whom we know were present agree with Kerry’s version of events. The only person who claims Schacte was on the boat is Schacte himself. Could he have gotten the dates mixed up? Maybe. In one of Kerry’s biographies (the one I don’t have, written by the Globe reporters,) **Unfit for Command says** “The Globe account also quoted William Schachte, the officer in command for the operation. As the Globe reporters recount, another person involved that day was William Schacte, who oversaw the mission and went on to become an admiral…” Note also in this particular event there was another boat involved. The whaler did not go out by itself. The other boat was a Swiftboat. The way the operation worked was everybody rode out on the Swiftboat with the whaler in tow. Then people would transfer into the whaler and use it’s stealthier profile to look for enemy activity (they paddled it, but in the event of action had the ability to turn the engines on and move fast.) If they saw nothing they would go back to the Swiftboat tow it elsewhere and try again. Chances are, in the night in question there were multiple different occupants of the whaler and people transferring back and forth. Make of that what you will. > [@](#): > > But, on the other hand, there is of course no way for me to know with any certainty either. This one’s a judgment call, so I doubt it can be resolved. Yup. > [@](#): > > What about Hibbert’s memory? I was referring to Kerry’s memory. He calls Schacte “batman” many years later. That was Schacte’s call sign on the whaler. (Kerry’s callsign on the whaler was “Robin.”) The names alone are suggestive that they were both on the same boat that night, as is the fact that Kerry remembered Shacte’s call sign many years later. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/223 "2004-09-28T00:42:07Z")
How about a fucking cite that Kerry “misrepresented” anything about Vietnam or those who served there? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/224 "2004-09-28T01:03:53Z")
> [@](#): > > was referring to Kerry’s memory. He calls Schacte “batman” many years later. That was Schacte’s call sign on the whaler. (Kerry’s callsign on the whaler was “Robin.”) The names alone are suggestive that they were both on the same boat that night, as is the fact that Kerry remembered Shacte’s call sign many years later. How is that suggestive that Schachte was on the boat THAT night and how do you expalin it that all three people who WRERE on the boat say he wasn’t fucking there? Yous eem to have the same problem that **Sam** had while he was getting destroyed in this debate. Your fantasy version of events requires that an uncommonly large number of completely disinterested parties (including widespread commiseration and collusion on the part of the Navy itself) must be lying to protect John Kerry. Your Swifties have been thoroughly exposed, debunked and disposed of by the official record and by multiple credible witnesses on every point regarding Kerry’s actual service. You seem to think blowing the whistle on war crimes is somehow a dishonorable act. I disagree but your entitled to your opinion. You’re wrong but you’re entitled. I wish you’d quit spouting already debunked lies and forcing us to squash them all over again. Sheer exhaustion with this subject is hampering my will to respond in detail but I will once again provide a link to [eRiposte](http://swiftvets.eriposte.com/) which hopefully you will read and disabuse yourself of some ignorance already. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/225 "2004-09-28T01:09:23Z")
Not what we’re looking for, but interesting: [http://cshink.com/admiral\_speaks\_out.htm](http://cshink.com/admiral_speaks_out.htm) ::Sigh:: It’s on Brit Hum August 23, 2004 Special Reports. Only the first segment of the show’s transcript is free (and it’s about some guy conducting polls on whether people think the Swiftvets are interesting.) To get the full transcript I have to pay money. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/226 "2004-09-28T01:15:28Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > How about a fucking cite that Kerry “misrepresented” anything about Vietnam or those who served there? I don’t think I’m supposed to link fucking cites on the board. It’s against rules. You can search for porn on your own. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/227 "2004-09-28T01:18:45Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > How is that suggestive that Schachte was on the boat THAT night and how do you expalin it that all three people who WRERE on the boat say he wasn’t fucking there? Because he was the commander in charge, and there might have been combat. It would have been innapropriate if he was having sex while they were searching for the enemy. It would have been embarassing, too if he was servicing some lady in the bottom of a boat while a firefight broke out. Personally, I’d be too nervous that my unit might get shot off to have sex on a combat mission. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/228 "2004-09-28T01:26:35Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > [eRiposte](http://swiftvets.eriposte.com/) which hopefully you will read and disabuse yourself of some ignorance already. Seen it. Pretty weak. Fully debunked here: [www.swiftvets.com](http://www.swiftvets.com) That doesn’t satisfy you? You want me to actually debate the issues? Well, then you have to as well. A simple link to an anonymous opinion page does not constitute a blanket rebuttal. By all means read it, come back with what you think is best and we’ll talk about it. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/229 "2004-09-28T01:27:18Z")
Very clever. I’ll take that to mean you don’t have an explanation. Have you read the eriposte site or are you getting all your info from Fox News and Free Republic? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/230 "2004-09-28T01:35:55Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Very clever. I’ll take that to mean you don’t have an explanation. No, my friend. Take it to mean I want to have a detailed give and take with mutual courtesy, and aren’t going to take you seriously here unless I feel you are willing to do the same. I find the hyperbole and cursing and demands to be somewhat less than your best offering in a debate. For me to make a serious effort, you have to do the same. That’s all. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/231 "2004-09-28T01:43:37Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Seen it. Pretty weak. Fully debunked here: > > [www.swiftvets.com](http://www.swiftvets.com) BWAAA-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!! 😃 [whew] Good one. Seriously, though have you actually read eriposte? How about [factcheck.org](http://factcheck.org/), a non-partisan site. My God, are you seriously using the Swifties’ own website as a cite? Are you **december** in disguise? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/232 "2004-09-28T01:48:03Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > No, my friend. Take it to mean I want to have a detailed give and take with mutual courtesy, and aren’t going to take you seriously here unless I feel you are willing to do the same. > > I find the hyperbole and cursing and demands to be somewhat less than your best offering in a debate. > > For me to make a serious effort, you have to do the same. That’s all. I find this disingenuous coming from someone who has called a war hero “the scum of the earth,” a liar, a traitor, a “medal hunter,” and a “war criminal.” There are no virgins here, **scylla**. Seriously, I’m asking very nicely. Is it your contention that the other two men on Kerry’s boat are lying about Schachte not being there, and if so why? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/233 "2004-09-28T01:49:05Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > BWAAA-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!! 😃 > > [whew] Good one. Seriously, though have you actually read eriposte? How about [factcheck.org](http://factcheck.org/), a non-partisan site. > > My God, are you seriously using the Swifties’ own website as a cite? Are you **december** in disguise? Whoosh. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/234 "2004-09-28T02:02:52Z")
Thank God. I remembered you as irredeemably conservative but at least somewhat capable of dialogue. For a second I thought we’d lost you the Freepers. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/235 "2004-09-28T02:09:13Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Seriously, I’m asking very nicely. Is it your contention that the other two men on Kerry’s boat are lying about Schachte not being there, and if so why? I don’t know. Svin and I are having this very discussion. One explanation is that they are lying. Another is they are mistaken, or misremember, a third is that they are not lying but Schacte is. A fourth is that Schacte is mistaken. I find it unusual that Kerry would be placed in charge of this boat since he was going along as a trainee. A trainee goes to be trained. A trainer is implied. Hence the codenames “Batman” and “Robin.” Schacte invented the tactic. He was in command. Where was he if not on the boat? Maybe he was on the Swiftboat doing the towing. Maybe sometimes that night he was on the Swiftboat and other times on the whaler (Since apparently there were transfers back and forth over several locations. That was the nature of the tactic.) There are many possibilities here. Faced with conflicting eyewitness accounts we have to use logic and guess. I feel certain that Shacte was on the seen, either on the whaler or the Swiftboat. I feel that it is likely that he was on the whaler at the time of the incident. The other possibility that I’ve been thinking about is this: They moved the whaler with the Swiftboat, and then some people got in the whaler and did their thing, and then they transferred back to the Swiftboat went somewhere else and did it again. That’s the mission profile. So here’s a scenario. They tow the boat to five or six locations. Sometimes Schacte is in the whaler, sometimes he is not. Sometimes Kerry is in the whaler, sometimes not. The parties in the whaler change as Kerry is being trained. At one stop Kerry fires the grenade launcher and either injures or doesn’t injure himself. Shacte is there. At another time later on Shacte is not on the boat and the actual incident occurs. Schacte thinks he has witnessed the incident, and was on the whaler at the time, but was not. There are variations on this theme as well. That explains the “Batman and Robin,” names. They were **mostly** together. Before you jump on Shacte as being a liar or saying that I admit he wasn’t there, this is just a hypothesis. There are variation that make Kerry look bad. This thing being 30 years ago, fog of war and the memory hole play a role. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/236 "2004-09-28T02:21:08Z")
Is it more likely that three people would be mistaken or that one person would be mistaken? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/237 "2004-09-28T02:50:30Z")
I see that the whack-a-boaters are acting up again. Energetic little critters, I’ll give them that. It’s their trail of turds I find annoying. ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/238 "2004-09-28T02:54:34Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > To paraphrase O’neil, suggesting that being in combat qualifies you for a job is ridiculous. He’s never claimed that’s his only or primary qualification to become President. Sure, during the Dem Convention and in other speeches he talked about his service in Vietnam a great deal, but how can you blame a politician (or more accurately his advisers, presumably) for pointing out that he’s a war hero? This is standard practice, and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with it, whether it’s Bob Dole or George Bush talking about WW2, or Kerry, Cleland or McCain talking about Vietnam. All these people emphasized their service while running for national office. All were entitled to do so. > [@Scylla](#): > > That’s not the question Svin. The question isn’t whether you can get close to Cambodia. The question is whether you can get in there with a Swiftboat. If the entrances are blocked as is maintained by the Swiftees, I’d say not. … Therefore, there is some good reasons to think they were pretty strict about stopping incursions into Cambodia, and not really any good ones why the would be sending Swiftboats there. I believe your statement is a fair summation of the beliefs of the Swifties, **Scylla**. For an even more strongly worded version of the same meme (no swift boats in Cambodia, or even near Cambodia), take a look at this statement from the leader of the SBVfT, author of the book, and star witness O’Neill. Note the clarity about the dates in question - O’Neill is making a statement that is intended to apply to all dates in question, the time of Kerry’s tour and the time of his tour, and he is saying that the situation was the same (no boats in Cambodia) at all times. > [@](#): > > JOHN O’NEILL: How do I know he’s not in Cambodia? I was on the same river, George. I was there two months after him. Our patrol area ran to Sedek, it was 50 miles from Cambodia. … And our boats didn’t go north of, only slightly north of Sedek. However, O’Neill’s statement was given the lie by O’Neill himself: > [@](#): > > AUDIO TAPE: > O’Neill: I was in Cambodia Sir, I worked along the border on the water. > Nixon: In a Swift Boat? > O’Neill: Yes, Sir. > END OF AUDIO TAPE First quote is from ABC’s “This Week with George Stephanopoulos” - copies abound in all media, but I can’t find the original transcript. The second quote is taken from [this CNN transcript](http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0408/24/asb.00.html). ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/239 "2004-09-28T03:11:34Z")
> [@Atticus Finch](#): > > However, O’Neill’s statement was given the lie by O’Neill himself: > > First quote is from ABC’s “This Week with George Stephanopoulos” - copies abound in all media, but I can’t find the original transcript. The second quote is taken from [this CNN transcript](http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0408/24/asb.00.html). Yeah, I’ve seen that. From the context it seems that when he says he was in Cambodia, he immediately clarifies it with “along the border,” and he was pretty close there. The problem is semantically how close is close. If you read into the context and take his motivations into account, it’s pretty clear he’s spinning. In one case slightly north of 50 miles away from the border is “close,” in another case it’s “along the border.” Is this lying? I look at it this way: A: “Are you from New York?” “Oh yeah, I lived in Hoboken.” B: “Are you from New York” “No way, I lived in Hokoken.” In one sense New York is the same as Hoboken, in the other it’s far away. Depends on what your stance is. As I said, I read the Swiftvets as portraying Kerry in the worst light possible and take that into account, which is why I beleive Kerry served honorably despite the Swiftvets’ portrayal. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/240 "2004-09-28T03:17:13Z")
“I was in cambodia” is not clarified or qualified or negated by “I served along the border.” It is _explained_ by it. Kind of like, “I’ve been in the Empire State Building. I was visiting New York.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875.md?page=13)