# Swiftboat Vets startin' to look pretty good. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 24, 2004, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875 "2004-09-24T14:26:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2004, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/281 "2004-09-30T14:58:40Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > Not one to let the facts get in the way of a good rant, are you? CBS has indeed revealed the identity of the person who gave them the memos. Dan Rather even interviewed him on camera to question him about the documents. My, oh my… it has been purported on these boards that you are somewhat of a “legal expert”, but if you were to pull such a stunt in a court of law, I’m afraid you would be rebuked by the judge. I wrote: “Wonder who did **create** those forgeries. CBS says that they don’t want to reveal the name of their source. (I guess they want to use the same source again.)” You responded with: “who **gave** them the memos”. Yes, CBS finally came around, but it was more from public pressure, rather than their own volition. > [@](#): > > **CBS has declined to reveal the source of the hotly disputed documents since airing them in a “60 Minutes” broadcast Sept. 8.** > > At least one of the documents bears a faxed header indicating it was faxed from a Kinko’s copy shop in Abilene to CBS News. > > The only Kinko’s in Abilene, says the Post report, is 21 miles from the Baird, Texas, home of Bill Burkett, a retired officer in the Texas National Guard who has been identified by other news organizations as a possible source for the documents. > > Asked about Burkett’s role in the “60 Minutes” story, Heyward declined to comment, except to say, “I’m not going to get into any discussion of who the sources are.” > [@](#): > > USA Today has also relied on Burkett as a key source for several reports – and coincidentally obtained copies of the same memos as CBS used in its now-tarnished story. > **USA Today also refuses to identify the source of its documents, citing confidentiality concerns.** > [http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE\_ID=40483](http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40483) > [@](#): > > **Texan has a history of attacks on Bush > Possible CBS source has had his credibility questioned before > By MICHAEL HEDGES > Copyright 2004 Houston Chronicle Washington Bureau** > > If Burkett does prove to be the source of the documents, CBS got them from a man with a well-established history of Bush loathing. > In an article Burkett wrote for the Internet last year he compared Bush to Hitler and Napoleon as one of “the three small men” who sought to rule through tyranny. “Three small men who wanted to conquer and vanquish,” Burkett wrote. Burkett confirmed authorship of that article in the February Chronicle interview. > [http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/front/2799919](http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/front/2799919) > [@](#): > > Testaments to Burkett’s intense feelings about politics are all over his house. On a side table is a copy of the book Bush’s Brain: How Karl Rove Made George W. Bush Presidential. In the front entry is a photograph of Republican Sen. John McCain of Arizona, whom his wife supported against Bush in the 2000 Republican primaries… > Reporters who knew of Burkett’s role as a Bush critic continued to call as they searched for files that could fill in details on a gap in Bush’s service record. > [http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/president/2004-09-21-cover-guard\_x.htm](http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/president/2004-09-21-cover-guard_x.htm) Now, regarding the CBS/Burkett collusion and the still remaining mystery of just who did create the forgeries, I maintain: > [@](#): > > maybe they don’t have a source to reveal. Perhaps the “source” is internal to CBS. ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2004, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/282 "2004-09-30T15:18:02Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > It is being debated. That does not make it “debatable.” Now, that’s a real jewell. > [@](#): > > I’ve been a journalist. Believe me, CBS’s concern was to break open a hot, earth-shattering scoop before anybody else. That’s how the game is played. They would have done the same if somebody had handed them some shocking dirt on Kerry. And that stinks. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2004, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/283 "2004-09-30T15:50:22Z")
> [@Razorsharp](#): > > Well, it appears that the premise of my original OP has been validated, much to the chagrin of the majority of those who wear the badge of “Doper”. Sure it has as long as one ignores the which group is more likely to present falsehoods as truth. As long as one ignores the issue of credibility, I’d say that you’re correct. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2004, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/284 "2004-09-30T18:43:29Z")
> [@Razorsharp](#): > > And that stinks. I won’t defend sloppy journalism, but it’s not the same as mendacious or politically biased journalism. You have to look to Fox et al. to find that. Furthermore, CBS News has publicly admitted its mistake. When are the Swifties going to admit theirs? ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2004, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/285 "2004-09-30T20:00:16Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I won’t defend sloppy journalism, but it’s not the same as mendacious or politically biased journalism. You have to look to Fox et al. to find that. That’s a big 'ol bunch of bull. CBS colluded with a known Bush basher. > [@](#): > > Furthermore, CBS News has publicly admitted its mistake. Yeah, after they got caught. What else could they do? > [@](#): > > When are the Swifties going to admit theirs? I don’t care about the “Swifties”, they’re just a partisan organization. I expect better from the press. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2004, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/286 "2004-09-30T20:04:09Z")
If Novak gets a pass for aiding and abetting treason, Rather gets a pass for letting himself get gulled when he should have known better. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2004, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/287 "2004-09-30T20:15:07Z")
> [@Razorsharp](#): > > Yeah, after they got caught. What else could they do? Emulate the Bush Administration and insist they were right all along? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2004, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/288 "2004-09-30T20:35:47Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Emulate the Bush Administration and insist they were right all along? Hee Hee Hee. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2004, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/289 "2004-09-30T22:15:14Z")
> [@Razorsharp](#): > > I don’t care about the “Swifties”, they’re just a partisan organization. I expect better from the press. Of course a major news organization should be held to a higher standard than a short-duration partisan political organization. But even by that standard CBS News compares favorably. Look at all it’s done, all the perfectly accurate and highly important stories it has brought to light and shown to the world, since the 1950s; in light of that, we should be prepared to forgive a mistake which was corrected immediately, and which in the final analysis harmed nothing and nobody but the reputation of CBS itself. (Especially since we have some reason to believe, from other sources, that the things _60 Minutes_ said about Bush’s National Guard nonservice were perfectly true even if the sources they were citing were unreliable.) Whereas the SBVT, since it was formed, has done absolutely nothing that was not reprehensible. No, the Swifties are not “startin’ to look pretty good.” ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2004, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/290 "2004-09-30T23:12:03Z")
**Brainglutton** said: > [@](#): > > I’ve been a journalist. Believe me, CBS’s concern was to break open a hot, earth-shattering scoop before anybody else. That’s how the game is played. They would have done the same if somebody had handed them some shocking dirt on Kerry. Really? Let’s see… 254 veterans come forward, led by 17 officers who all personally knew Kerry in Vietnam. They wave 17 affidavits attesting to lies and malfeasance by Kerry. This group of officers consists of Kerry’s entire living chain of command, including two Admirals and one former JAG for the Navy. CBS response: Nada. Zip. These guys held a press conference back in February, and got ZERO major media coverage. Their 17 affidavits somehow don’t meet CBS’s high journalistic standards. Later, one guy with a history of attacks on Bush and the guard comes forward with some badly forged memos, which he claims were given to him by a shadowy figure he can’t identify. CBS gives memos to several experts, all of whom have grave misgivings as to their authenticity. CBS response: HOLD THE PRESSES! WE’RE GOING NATIONAL WITH THIS ONE! ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2004, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/291 "2004-09-30T23:44:37Z")
That’s because they were fucking liars. ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/292 "2004-10-01T12:20:31Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > That’s because they were fucking liars. That can’t be the reason. CBS had no qualms about colluding with a known Bush basher who was every bit as partisan as the SBVFT. > [@](#): > > **Texan has a history of attacks on Bush > Possible CBS source has had his credibility questioned before > By MICHAEL HEDGES > Copyright 2004 Houston Chronicle Washington Bureau** > > If Burkett does prove to be the source of the documents, CBS got them from a man with a well-established history of Bush loathing. > > In an article Burkett wrote for the Internet last year he compared Bush to Hitler and Napoleon as one of “the three small men” who sought to rule through tyranny. “Three small men who wanted to conquer and vanquish,” Burkett wrote. Burkett confirmed authorship of that article in the February Chronicle interview. > [http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/front/2799919](http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/front/2799919) ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/293 "2004-10-01T12:47:09Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > …we should be prepared to forgive a mistake which was corrected immediately,… No, it was a little more than a mistake. CBS, in an act of political partisanship, gambled and lost. and it wasn’t corrected immediately. No, CBS showed its true colors by insisting that even though the documents may be forgeries, the content was nevertheless accurate. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/294 "2004-10-01T14:08:36Z")
Exactly. This was _not_ business as usual. They got the scoop and instead of checking the sources thorougly (when have the major media made an error of this magnitude?), they rushed to get it out in two or three days, ignoring the objections of their own document experts. The fact that the bloggers were able to find fault with the documents attests to how many safeguards were overridden in their rush to get out the Bush-bashing story. And their response has been wholly inadequate - two weeks ago Rather was saying that there was no chance of an investigation or apology. Nobody’s lost his shirt yet. Can you imagine the outrage (especially on the SDMB) if Fox produced some documents, later known to be false, showing that Kerry was AWOL in VIetnam, and the above facts were true? As Murdoch said, they’d be crucified. This whole incident begs the questions, of course, how many such hoaxes were aired in the past, before the blogosphere began watching the watchmen? ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/295 "2004-10-01T17:07:52Z")
> [@Razorsharp](#): > > No, it was a little more than a mistake. CBS, in an act of political partisanship, gambled and lost. and it wasn’t corrected immediately. Well, you keep claiming this but you don’t have any support for it. And, you ignore examples in the other direction of stories that were rushed or not carefully enough checked, like Judith Miller’s in the N.Y. Times, stories that were not even found out to be false soon enough to correct the damage that was done. No, what you have done is taken a stupid mistake by CBS and exploited for partisan political purposes. > [@](#): > > No, CBS showed its true colors by insisting that even though the documents may be forgeries, the content was nevertheless accurate. Well, it is not CBS who said this…It is the secretary who would have typed the actual documents in question who said that while these were not the original documents, they were similar to actual documents she did remember typing and they accurately reflected the basic views of her boss. That this fact has been largely lost in the hype over the forged documents shows that the net effect of CBS’s gullibility has been to hurt the Democrats more than to help them. But, like I said in a previous posts (Do you even read any of my posts???), I am not psychic so I will not be making claims as to CBS’s motivations here. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/296 "2004-10-01T17:15:08Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > And their response has been wholly inadequate - two weeks ago Rather was saying that there was no chance of an investigation or apology. Nobody’s lost his shirt yet. For all your whining, it was only a few days before CBS admitted that the documents did not seem to be genuine and announced an independent investigation. The N.Y. Times took over a year before they even apologized for Judth Miller’s reporting and even then it was fairly half-assed (they wouldn’t even mention her by name). And, they didn’t propose any independent investigation. [quote] Can you imagine the outrage (especially on the SDMB) if Fox produced some documents, later known to be false, showing that Kerry was AWOL in VIetnam, and the above facts were true? As Murdoch said, they’d be crucified. [quote] Well, we don’t have this exact example. But, I have brought up examples of incidents bearing some similarity. There is the forged Niger document incident where it was admittedly the President rather than the news media that relied on forged documents that should easily have been recognized as forgeries…And, did so, if I recall correctly, long after the documents were known not to be genuine. This story was reported but seems to have been harped upon less than the CBS case and I don’t believe there has been an independent investigation. And, then in terms of the media, as I noted, you have the fanciful reporting of Judith Miller, which has been way-underreported. ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/297 "2004-10-01T22:01:31Z")
> [@jshore](#): > > […] and I don’t believe there has been an independent investigation. Just a point of order if I may. Are you claiming that there have been no investigations which included the forged Nigerian documents? Are you claiming that none of the investigations were independant of the White House? Or are you complaining that none of them count as either because they did not focus on this one document exclusively? ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2004, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/298 "2004-10-01T23:26:54Z")
> [@pervert](#): > > Just a point of order if I may. Are you claiming that there have been no investigations which included the forged Nigerian documents? Are you claiming that none of the investigations were independant of the White House? Or are you complaining that none of them count as either because they did not focus on this one document exclusively? The claim, which I made tentatively (hence the “I believe”), is that I did not think there had been any investigation independent of the White House (or obvious interested parties like the intelligence services themselves) that looked into this in any reasonable detail. It wouldn’t have to be the exclusive focus. I’d be happy to be corrected on this point if you know otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2004, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/299 "2004-10-02T02:13:36Z")
Latest news: [Did Kerry write own report of disputed clash?](http://www.suntimes.com/output/elect/cst-nws-lip01.html) > [@](#): > > A faded 35-year-old operations order recovered from the Naval Historical Center in Washington bears directly on the ongoing dispute between Sen. John Kerry and the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth about who wrote the key after-action report that ended Kerry’s service in Vietnam. The report appears in the official Navy records and is posted on Kerry’s presidential campaign Web site. > > … > > According to a Navy communications expert, Chief Petty Officer Troy Jenkins, who has examined the message traffic, the report in question was sent from the U.S. Coast Guard Cutter Spencer, Lonsdale’s command ship, at 11:20 that night. > > Only three of the officers on the mission that day were on the Spencer, John Kerry, Dick Pease and Donald Droz. Droz took the wounded from the mine explosion to be examined and treated at the Spencer, including the third officer, the severely wounded Dick Pease. Since the Spencer had no helipad for the evacuation of the wounded, Droz then had to return to the USS Washtenaw County, stationed about 25 nautical miles away, leaving only Kerry aboard the Spencer at the time the message was sent at 11:20 p.m. > > Could Droz have somehow written the report? Lonsdale says command precedence of days in swift boat service alone rules this out. “According to the command procedure I set down, Kerry would have been the only logical candidate. Kerry had been in Vietnam since November. Droz just arrived at An Thoi in February.” Thurlow adds, “I never liked the paperwork anyway. I was happy to have Kerry write them up.” > > … > > **But if “the official Navy record” now turns out to have been written by Kerry himself, the principal beneficiary of its glowing references to his performance, the swift boat critics’ charges look far more consequential.** > > After all, the report completely leaves out how Kerry’s own boat, PCF-94, ran down river leaving James Rassmann overboard and the other three boats to deal with the ambush and the sinking PCF-3. **All of the living boat commanders on that mission are in firm agreement on that action by Kerry and agree that the report is a fraudulent misrepresentation of an action they remember well.** ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2004, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/300 "2004-10-02T02:39:27Z")
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