# Swiftboat Vets startin' to look pretty good. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 24, 2004, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875 "2004-09-24T14:26:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BJMoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5fc32e/32.png) [@BJMoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BJMoose)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/21 "2004-09-24T16:15:25Z")
> [@Razorsharp](#): > > Now, if you notice, I wrote,Did you see that? **Comparatively**. Yes, comparatively, it does improve their image. See, you are the one using the semantics to bolster your rebuttal. And **comparitively** speaking, the Swifts look real, real good if compared to Adolph Hitler, Jeffery Dahmer, or Slug Signorino. Not only will this dog not hunt, it won’t even sniff itself. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/22 "2004-09-24T16:19:53Z")
> [@](#): > > Now, if you notice, I wrote, > > > [@](#): > > > > Comparatively, The Swiftboat Veterans for Truth are starting to look pretty credible. > > Did you see that? Comparatively. Yes, comparatively, it does improve their image. See, you are the one using the semantics to bolster your rebuttal. Color me confused. Because of something CBS did concerning an unrelated story, the lies of SVfT are somehow less untruthful than they were before? Sorry, but IMO the premise of this thread lacks coherence. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/23 "2004-09-24T16:21:59Z")
I’ll go out on a limb here and predict that **SimonX** ’s post gets completely ignored by **Razorsharp**. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/24 "2004-09-24T16:23:01Z")
The Swifties’ allegations go against many of their own previous statements regarding John Kerry, they are in opposition to official Navy records on which they signed off, and they are at variance with the recollections of every man on Kerry’s boat. At least one person depicted on their website has repeatedly sought to be removed from it because he gave an answer to an innocuous question which was later morphed into a condemnation of Kerry. They do not speak the Truth, nor are they particularly Swift. CBS based a story on memos it believed to be genuine. Now we cannot prove them otherwise, we just can’t prove they are. The contents of the memos are beyond dispute- Bush used influence to dodge Vietnam and he refused to take a physical which just so happened to coincide with new drug tests. Nonetheless, CBS has brought in a third party investigative team to examine their behavior. When was the last time FOX did the same? Or O’Reilly? Or Scarborough? Or Hannity? Or Limbaugh? In my humble opinion, Dan Rather has more integrity in his little finger than the whole lot of them do in their large intestines, including the colon! ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/25 "2004-09-24T16:25:12Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > (You see the same logic among people who claim that Evolutionary theory is inferior to Creationist dogma because the Evolutionary scientists actually correct their mistakes while the Creationists’ story does not change.) Speaking of logic, then there is the “logic” of those who claim that Evolutionary theory is superior to Creationism, all the while denying the differences that exist between the different racial groups that can be attributed to evolution. Instead, when pointing out the differences, the “defenders of the faith” start preaching, “All humans are **created** the same.” ---
**Author:** ![SpartanDC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b2d939/32.png) [@SpartanDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpartanDC)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/26 "2004-09-24T16:25:20Z")
> [@BJMoose](#): > > And **comparitively** speaking, the Swifts look real, real good if compared to Adolph Hitler, Jeffery Dahmer, or Slug Signorino. > > Not only will this dog not hunt, it won’t even sniff itself. Whoa, whoa, careful, **BJMoose** , you don’t want to lose this argument by pulling a Godwin. **Razorsharp** , I do apologize for messing up your name. As for the argument at hand here, I just don’t think it holds water. First of all, the media cases you mentioned, especially the first two, appear to be cases of individual deception that were motivated by the selfishness and sociopathic tendencies of the people involved. The jury is still out on who is truly responsible for the foul-up at CBS, but my money is on an overzealous news producer who, yes, may have been politically motivated, considering said producer put the creator of the memos in touch with Kerry’s campaign. The Swifties, on the other hand, are an organized group of people who by all appearances are simply a tool of a larger Republican machine. (That may or may not include the Bush-Cheney campaign itself.). Janet Cook and Jayson Blair were individuals who obviously had some mental issues. The Swifties are the face of a well-organized smear campaign. Biiiiig difference. None of these people/groups are defensible, but I think the comparison is simply not valid, and the actions of one do not make anyone else look better/worse. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/27 "2004-09-24T16:34:24Z")
> [@](#): > > Speaking of logic, then there is the “logic” of those who claim that Evolutionary theory is superior to Creationism, all the while denying the differences that exist between the different racial groups that can be attributed to evolution. > > Instead, when pointing out the differences, the “defenders of the faith” start preaching, “All humans are created the same.” Nice try, but your stated subject for this thread is journalistic ethics, apparently. Let’s continue discussing that, shall we? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/28 "2004-09-24T16:37:02Z")
Let me illustrate Razorsharp’s argument as he has laid it out so far: 1. CBS aired a story that was made up, and when outside groups produced evidence of the lie, CBS acknowledged that they were wrong. 2. When a NYT reporter makes up stories, and outside groups piece together the lies, the Times fires the reporter and issues an apology. 3. A Washington Post reporter gets a prize for journalism, her deceptions come to light, and the prize is taken away from her. 4. The Swiftboat vets make up a lie, spread it as far and as wide as their advertising dollars allow, and when confronted with evidence that their claims are lies, they deny the evidence and continue to maintain that they are telling the truth. Oh, NOW I see why the Swifties look good in comparison. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/29 "2004-09-24T16:39:28Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Hmmm, on reflection perhaps it wasn’t so obvious- especially when seeing everything from the perch you guys seem to inhabit. Still I believe **tomndebb** ’s point refers to a wider “self correcting mechanism”… First **CarnalK** - you have absolutely no idea what “perch,” as you call it, I inhabit – just like I have absolutely no right to accuse you of being someone who blindly marches in lock step with certain types of opinion on this Board — no matter the evidence to indicate the contrary. So why not stick with the issues. Second, as long as you take the position that CBS had to be “self-corrected” by others - not CBS correcting itself - I have no problem with that position. But CBS’ actions seem to indicate that they had no intention of “_self_-correcting.” In fact, it appears that after CBS was caught, they made an attempt to hide that fact by calling their source “unimpeachable.” Now either CBS simply lied when they did that or they were grossly negligent in their examination of Burkett, their source. Burkett is far from “unimpeachable” and, whether you like the fact or not, CBS was far from “self-correcting.” ---
**Author:** ![BJMoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5fc32e/32.png) [@BJMoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BJMoose)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/30 "2004-09-24T16:39:34Z")
**SNenc** : Help me here. If I’ve ever heard of a Godwin I’ve forgotten what it is. Fill me in, _por favor_. (I’m not worried about winning an argument here cuz there seems to be no meat to the OP.) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/31 "2004-09-24T16:40:36Z")
> [@](#): > > Speaking of logic, then there is the “logic” of those who claim that Evolutionary theory is superior to Creationism, all the while denying the differences that exist between the different racial groups that can be attributed to evolution. You are, as usual, confusing two separate groups. There are the proponents of science who note that there are not sufficient differences among races to even justify the term being used as a category of persons (since such minor differences as exist are scattered across a continuum that does not provide coherent and definitive boundaries) and there are those proponents of philosophy who note that there are no conditions that legitimately argue in favor of legal sanctions against any perceived group based on birth and who generally use the touchstone of the U.S. Declaration of Independence (written 83 years prior to the publication of Origin of Species) to find the language that describes their point. On the other hand, it certainly does not surprise me to find **Razorsharp** as a proponent of Creationism. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/32 "2004-09-24T16:50:34Z")
> [@Razorsharp](#): > > Speaking of logic, then there is the “logic” of those who claim that Evolutionary theory is superior to Creationism, all the while denying the differences that exist between the different racial groups that can be attributed to evolution. > > Instead, when pointing out the differences, the “defenders of the faith” start preaching, “All humans are **created** the same.” Ah, I think I’ve got the hang of your ‘logic’. Creationists have no evidence, but call the other side liars. They receive money from fanatical types. When pressed for evidence, they refuse, but keep making attacks on the other side. Swift boat types … ---
**Author:** ![Mal\_Adroit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df788c/32.png) [@Mal\_Adroit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mal_Adroit)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/33 "2004-09-24T16:56:47Z")
> [@Razorsharp](#): > > Washington Post reporter Janet Cook fabricated a story. . . > > New York Times reporter Jason Blair was found to have plagarized and fabricated. . . > > Now, **CBS News** has used forged government documents (a criminal offense) in an attempt to influence the the electoral process of America. You’re not seriously equating shoddy journalism with deliberate deception, are you? BJMoose said it best, methinks. > [@BJMoose](#): > > Not only will this dog not hunt, it won’t even sniff itself. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/34 "2004-09-24T17:03:36Z")
> [@Razorsharp](#): > > Speaking of logic, then there is the “logic” of those who claim that Evolutionary theory is superior to Creationism, all the while denying the differences that exist between the different racial groups that can be attributed to evolution. > > Instead, when pointing out the differences, the “defenders of the faith” start preaching, “All humans are **created** the same.” How about some concrete examples of the differences that scientists (aka "defenders of the faith) refuse to acknowledge? It’s very hard to argue against such a sweeping generality. Scientists routinely recognize immunilogical differences, for example. But be careful here. It is certainly accurate to talk of “frequencies of occurances that vary by ethnicity”, but it would be hard to come up with a trait that “evey mumber of group X, \*\*\*and \*\*\*\*\*\*only \*\*\*members of group X, exhibits”. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/35 "2004-09-24T17:13:00Z")
[Janet Cook’s article](http://www.uncp.edu/home/canada/work/markport/lit/litjour/spg2002/cooke.htm) appeared in 1980. I’ll never trust the Washington Post again. I’m surprised you didn’t mention when the Chicago Tribune claimed Dewey won. Oh, wait, they’re a conservative paper… ---
**Author:** ![SpartanDC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b2d939/32.png) [@SpartanDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpartanDC)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/36 "2004-09-24T17:15:37Z")
> [@BJMoose](#): > > **SNenc** : Help me here. If I’ve ever heard of a Godwin I’ve forgotten what it is. Fill me in, _por favor_. > (I’m not worried about winning an argument here cuz there seems to be no meat to the OP.) No problem. [Here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law) is the definition. ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/37 "2004-09-24T17:18:03Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > Nice try, but your stated subject for this thread is journalistic ethics, apparently. Let’s continue discussing that, shall we? No problem, but get off my case. I ain’t the one who brought up the subject of evolution vs creation. ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/38 "2004-09-24T17:23:52Z")
> [@Moody Bastard](#): > > You’re not seriously equating shoddy journalism with deliberate deception, are you? Whadda ya think? > [@](#): > > From post #2: > > **NBC** news magazine, Dateline, rigged a pick-up truck to explode on impact to malign an American corporation and **CNN** produced a fraudulent documentary, claiming that the United States military used poison gas on deserters, in an effort to equate the American military complex with the Iraqi military of Saddam Hussein. Now which is it? Shoddy journalism or deliberate deception? ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/39 "2004-09-24T17:31:56Z")
> [@Tigers2B1](#): > > Second, as long as you take the position that CBS had to be “self-corrected” by others - not CBS correcting itself - I have no problem with that position. But CBS’ actions seem to indicate that they had no intention of “_self_-correcting.” In fact, it appears that after CBS was caught, they made an attempt to hide that fact by calling their source “unimpeachable.” Now either CBS simply lied when they did that or they were grossly negligent in their examination of Burkett, their source. Burkett is far from “unimpeachable” and, whether you like the fact or not, CBS was far from “self-correcting.” Yes, CBS has turned into a shoddy organization as far as the straight dope is concerned. However, using mistakes on the part of A, B, and C in no way can justify D’s actions. And, with the exception of CBS all of the organizations cited in the OP disclosed the fabrications and plagiarism themselves upon discovery. The OP’s argument is similar to the nonsense thrown back at you when you question the Iraq invasion: “Do you want to let terrorists have free rein?” ---
**Author:** ![BJMoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5fc32e/32.png) [@BJMoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BJMoose)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/40 "2004-09-24T17:33:12Z")
In fairness, there is one question in the OP that I can read and still keep a straight face: > [@Razorsharp](#): > > . . . do the so-called mainstream media really exhibit any more credibility than sources labeled “right-wing extremist”? Yes they do. Quite often. Might explain why they are so often called “mainstream.” **SNenc** : Ah yes, _that_ Godwin’s Law. Well, no sign yet that it works in the present case. **Moody Bastard** : Thanks for the tip o’ th’ hat. I’ve waited several months for a good chance to use that line. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875.md?page=3)