# Swiftboat Vets startin' to look pretty good. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 24, 2004, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875 "2004-09-24T14:26:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/41 "2004-09-24T17:35:29Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > I’ll go out on a limb here and predict that **SimonX** ’s post gets completely ignored by **Razorsharp**. So far so good. ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/42 "2004-09-24T17:37:18Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > How about some concrete examples of the differences that scientists (aka "defenders of the faith) refuse to acknowledge? It ain’t scientists that I am referring to as “defenders of the faith”, it’s those who cling to the orthodoxy of liberalism. As for something concrete regarding evolution that many of those who adhere to the doctrine of liberalism/evolution refuse to acknowledge, I’ll just pose a question to you. Do you believe that the intelligence quotient is hereditary? ---
**Author:** ![DarkTrickLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@DarkTrickLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DarkTrickLady)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/43 "2004-09-24T17:39:08Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > No, **Razorback** is arguing that a self-correcting mechanism to retract errors and lies, if used by a group of disparate publications that he deems too “Leftist” is inferior to deliberate liars who refuse to retract their stories after they have been proven false if the liars are a group that he perceives to be sufficiently “Right.” SELF-correcting? Really? It rather seemed that without bloggers and the internet buzz that CBS would never have admitted there was ANY credibility problem with their forged documents. As it was they held onto the myth as long as they could; it beyond cringeworthy. Second, “deliberate liars”? When were the swiftboat veterans “exposed” as “deliberate liars”? They are all lying while Kerry is telling the truth? I’m genuinely puzzled. ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/44 "2004-09-24T17:46:14Z")
> [@SimonX](#): > > So far so good. What the fuk is in SimonX’s post that deserves anything other than being ignored. Is the ratio all that important? Hell Fire, don’t you hold the media to a higher standard than organizations like the Swiftboat Vets? Well, I can understand why not, being that the media sometimes stoops to the same level. As for SimonX’s ratio, think that every media distortion or deception has been acknowledged, or just the ones they got caught at? ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/45 "2004-09-24T17:50:43Z")
> [@DarkTrickLady](#): > > When were the swiftboat veterans “exposed” as “deliberate liars”? They are all lying while Kerry is telling the truth? I’m genuinely puzzled. Since you haven’t paid for the search feature, we won’t hold it against you. [Another Swift Boat Liar for Bush goes down](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=274975) You can poke around [Factcheck](http://www.factcheck.org), too. Try a search using keyword “swift”. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/46 "2004-09-24T17:56:09Z")
> [@SNenc](#): > > The Swifties, on the other hand, are an organized group of people who by all appearances are simply a tool of a larger Republican machine. Heh. Republican = tool. Heh-heh. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/47 "2004-09-24T17:57:06Z")
> [@Razorsharp](#): > > Oh, and I almost forgot, **NBC** news magazine, Dateline, rigged a pick-up truck to explode on impact to malign an American corporation and **CNN** produced a fraudulent documentary, claiming that the United States military used poison gas on deserters, in an effort to equate the American military complex with the Iraqi military of Saddam Hussein. I’m familiar with the three instances alleged in your OP, but the above two are news to me. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/48 "2004-09-24T17:57:16Z")
> [@Razorsharp](#): > > First off, I ain’t from Arkansas… it’s **Razorsharp**. > > Now, if you notice, I wrote,Did you see that? **Comparatively**. Yes, comparatively, it does improve their image. See, you are the one using the semantics to bolster your rebuttal. :dubious: So what? Everything’s improved compared to SOMETHING. Charles Manson is an improvement over Hitler. Caligula was an improvement when compared to Nero. Dying of a gunshot to the head is an improvement of dying of breast cancer. I still wouldn’t say that Manson, Caligula, or a gunshot wound is something I’d choose. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/49 "2004-09-24T18:11:13Z")
> [@Razorsharp](#): > > Speaking of logic, then there is the “logic” of those who claim that Evolutionary theory is superior to Creationism, all the while denying the differences that exist between the different racial groups that can be attributed to evolution. Correction, **Razorsharp:** The scientific community accepts that there are innate differences between human “races” that can be attributed to evolution (e.g., the dark skins of races living near the Equator is an adaptation to protect them from sunburn; the pale skins of Europeans is an adaptation to allow sunshine in to aid production of vitamin D). What the scientific community rejects is the idea that there are any **psychological** differences between races – differences in native intelligence, emotional makeup, etc. – caused by evolution or any other factor. There’s no illogic in that – it’s just that nobody has come up with any hard scientific evidence of psychological differences between races. (The analysis in _The Bell Curve,_ for instance, is fundamentally flawed in a lot of ways I won’t get into here.) I ran a GD thread on that a while back – [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=264439](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=264439) – and nobody was able to cite any such evidence. If you’ve got some, let’s see it. I came across a cite in another GD thread, can’t seem to find it right now, noting that there is more genetic diversity among chimpanzees than among humans, even though chimps have a much smaller population and no native habitat outside Africa. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/50 "2004-09-24T18:13:40Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Charles Manson is an improvement over Hitler. Cheez, Mr. Godwin, we’re tryin’–really we are! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/51 "2004-09-24T18:17:22Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Caligula was an improvement when compared to Nero. Nitpick: I think most historians would agree Nero was an improvement when compared to Caligula. Both were extravagant, but Caligula was violently insane, while Nero preferred art and theater to gladiatorial games. I think Nero gets a bad rap because he was the first Roman emperor to crack down on the Christians. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/52 "2004-09-24T18:19:39Z")
**Razorsharp** : It seems that you have been a little bit selective here in what you chose to consider. I am sure it is just an innocent oversight on your part though. For example, you neglected to mention [the fanciful reporting by Judith Miller in the New York Times in regards to WMDs in Iraq](http://newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/news/media/features/9226/). She presumably did not purposely deceive, but like Dan Rather she let herself and the N.Y. Times be taken for a ride, in this case by Chalabi and company. [The New York Times response](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/26/international/middleeast/26FTE_NOTE.html?ex=1096171200&en=8bceea97649f2627&ei=5070&8dpc) was to issue a vague apology about some of their pre-war reporting but not to specifically identify her by name (let alone reprimand, fire her, or pressure her to resign). You also neglected to mention another case of forgery recently — [that of documents perporting to show that Iraq tried to buy uranium from Niger](http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/03/14/sprj.irq.documents/). Admittedly, in this case, it was more governments, like the U.S., that got duped and not the news media. Oh, and by the way, if you wanted to actually see anything in the U.S. media pre-Iraq war where the possibility of Iraq not having WMD was taken as a serious possibility, you pretty much had to go to the **real** “liberal media,” i.e., publications like _The Nation_. So, what have we learned here? Well, with all sources of information you have to be careful. However, that does not mean that some are not more reliable than others (and that some are not more purposely deceitful than others). ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/53 "2004-09-24T18:34:24Z")
Okey-doke, **Razorsharp** I’ll get off your case on the creation vs. evolution thing. I’ll just stick to your original subject, if you don’t mind. > [@](#): > > But, do the so-called mainstream media really exhibit any more credibility than sources labeled “right-wing extremist”? The simple answer is yes, of course they do. I’ve never seen a perfectly efficient system, so I’ve never seen a reason to expect that the system of vetting for news items will be perfect. At least, however, there usually is such a system in the mainstream media. Given that fact, citing four instances of abuse out of god knows how many hundreds of thousands of news items over more than twenty years, does not make a compelling case for me to reject everything out of whatever you deem to be “mainstream media”. The lack of any coherent system of validation for stories sourced from blogs and non-peer reviewed outlets, on the other hand, does indeed argue against accepting the bulk of their output without question. I hope that clerars up this point to your satisfaction. Now, if you would be so kind, could you explain why you think that the examples of journalistic abuses you cited somehow validate what the Swifties are doing? In other words, is it your view that the only valid responses to lying for political reasons is to put out lies of your own? ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/54 "2004-09-24T18:35:38Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Nitpick: I think most historians would agree Nero was an improvement when compared to Caligula. Both were extravagant, but Caligula was violently insane, while Nero preferred art and theater to gladiatorial games. I think Nero gets a bad rap because he was the first Roman emperor to crack down on the Christians. Besides, it’s hard to be an “improvement” on a successor. ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/55 "2004-09-24T18:50:11Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > Yes, CBS has turned into a shoddy organization as far as the straight dope is concerned. However, using mistakes on the part of A, B, and C in no way can justify D’s actions. And, with the exception of CBS all of the organizations cited in the OP disclosed the fabrications and plagiarism themselves upon discovery. > > The OP’s argument is similar to the nonsense thrown back at you when you question the Iraq invasion: “Do you want to let terrorists have free rein?” So? I don’t understand why you use my quote when discussing the OP? I was orginally responding to the point of another poster and then still another after that. It always seems to require an inordinate amount of time and posts to get across a very simple point – regarding some subjects. Mine – There’s no such thing as a “_self_-correcting mechanism” unless the self-policing, self-contained organization is also acting in good faith. Which is never a given circumstance. To say that the media has a built in self-correcting mechanism is not only a broad oversimplifaction, it makes no sense IMO. So, after posting that simple statement, rather than responding, some guy comes on and states I’m deceitfully misreading the posts – then seems to retract on the ‘deceit,’ sort of, but adds that this is only from the vantage point of my “perch” – (whatever in the hell that means) :Shees: - some of you fellas need to take off the defensive goggles and put on some read’in glasses – In short, if you don’t agree that true self-correction, as displayed in the CBS case, also implies a necessary good faith on the organization’s behalf, than we disagree and have something real to discusss. My mind can be changed. Yet, as it stands it appears to follow that whether organizations possess that necessary good faith is a whole bunch of guesswork when looking from the outside – since organizations without ‘good intentions’ tend not to tell you about that trait. Only when an organization blunders on the level of CBS is it discovered by the outside and come to light. For instance, what percentage of Dopers would have pointed to CBS and guessed the potential for such unethical conduct just last month? This month? I suspect it’s more of a crapshoot that some might think - ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/56 "2004-09-24T18:53:45Z")
Oh, my! **Razorsharp** ’s off on another tangent! Firstly, the actions of _individuals_ (note that, please) certainly makes the larger organization look bad. This has happened in the case of the _Washington Post_, _New York Times_ and CBS. Also to NBC for that abomination that they aired, and I cannot recall the instance that you’re referring to inre CNN. These were truly unfortunate instances, and Cook and Blair no longer work for their respective publications. What will happen to Rather I dunno. It’s still pretty early in the cycle. Dateline is still, alas, on the air. On the other hand, O’Neill (the face as well as the ass of the Swifties) lied either to Nixon then, or to the rest of the population now. Yet he’s still out there trying to peddle his ridiculous claims (which match neither the recollection of others who were, y’know, actually there; nor official naval records) and has neither been reprimanded nor fired. So it seems to me that your examples point out pretty clearly that, contrary to your claims, mainstream organizations purge themselves of liars and get on with their existence. Whereas the Swifties keep the head liar around because he’s as good as they’ve got. And he’s not very damned good. Waste ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/57 "2004-09-24T19:02:25Z")
Oops, sorry. Well then, I guess you’d say Nero was better than Caligula. But my basic point still stands-comparing who was “better” in this case, is relative. If my choice is jumping onto bed of nails versus a bed of knives, what kind of choice is that? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/58 "2004-09-24T19:21:24Z")
> [@Razorsharp](#): > > It ain’t scientists that I am referring to as “defenders of the faith”, it’s those who cling to the orthodoxy of liberalism. > > As for something concrete regarding evolution that many of those who adhere to the doctrine of liberalism/evolution refuse to acknowledge, I’ll just pose a question to you. > > Do you believe that the intelligence quotient is hereditary? Are you implying that I “cling to the orthodoxy of liberalism”, whatever that means? I’m just wondering, since you asked me a question that you seem to think is indicitive of said clinging. Anyway… Your question about IQ is a false dichotomy, with the other choice(s) left unwritten. Clearly, intelligence is hereditary. If it weren’t, we’d be no more smarter as a species than chimps. The problem needs to be defined thusly: 1. What is intelligence and how does one measure it? 2. To what extent is intelligence controlled by genetics, and to what extent is it controlled by other, enviromental factors, some of which may be internal (eg, hormonal). So far, science has not been able to crack that problem with any definitive conclusions. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/59 "2004-09-24T19:28:35Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I came across a cite in another GD thread, can’t seem to find it right now, noting that there is more genetic diversity among chimpanzees than among humans, even though chimps have a much smaller population and no native habitat outside Africa. While that has definitely been [observed:](http://www.ucsdnews.ucsd.edu/newsrel/science/atree.htm) > [@](#): > > “Despite their much smaller numbers and restricted ranges, the African apes retain much more genetic variation than humans,” said lead author Pascal Gagneux, who conducted the research as a doctoral student in the laboratory of David Woodruff, the paper’s senior author. “The family tree also shows that the human branch has been pruned. Our ancestors lost much of their original variability.” it really doesn’t speak to the issue raised. The fact that chimps show more varitation than humans does not disprove in any way that populations of humans might have significant genetic variations. ---
**Author:** ![DarkTrickLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@DarkTrickLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DarkTrickLady)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875/60 "2004-09-24T19:35:17Z")
> [@Patty O'Furniture](#): > > Since you haven’t paid for the search feature, we won’t hold it against you. > > [Another Swift Boat Liar for Bush goes down](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=274975) > > You can poke around [Factcheck](http://www.factcheck.org), too. Try a search using keyword “swift”. I may be missing something, but factcheck confirms that Kerry’s testimony re: atrocities was all second- or third-hand hearsay, and the Bakersfield article merely confirms that some ill acts had been either ordered or committed (no news there). Nothing so far that confirms the SwiftBoat Veterans for Truth is simply lying to defame Kerry. The Bakersfield article didn’t seem to have anything to do with any of the SBVfT. I will keep looking, but so far Kerry is coming off really sleazy… Edit…I see that some witnesses contradict the swiftboat witnesses. So it has become a he-said/she-said scenario. There is no more reason that I can see to believe the she-saids over the he-saids at this point. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboat-vets-startin-to-look-pretty-good/265875.md?page=4)