# Swiftboating John Murtha **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 14, 2006, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboating-john-murtha/339967 "2006-01-14T15:52:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2006, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboating-john-murtha/339967/1 "2006-01-14T15:52:58Z")
Cocksucking conservatives are trying to swiftboat John Murtha. [http://www.cnsnews.com/news/viewstory.asp?Page=\SpecialReports\archive\200601\SPE20060113a.html](http://www.cnsnews.com/news/viewstory.asp?Page=%5CSpecialReports%5Carchive%5C200601%5CSPE20060113a.html) Can’t you motherfuckers come up with any new tricks? Or is it your intention to smear the service record of any veteran who disagrees with you? Really, a special section of hell should be established for today’s gutless, despicable Republicans. Those of you who are Republican and do not belong in this group, step up and take back your party. Please. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2006, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboating-john-murtha/339967/2 "2006-01-14T16:36:24Z")
So…are you disupting the facts _alleged_ in the article, and going to offer some cites to counter them, or is this just another anti-Conservative rant? PS, I’m a Conservative who thinks Murtha is/was **right** , BTW, so let’s burn that strawman before it starts being stuffed. I also don’t give a rat’s ass about his status as “war hero” or otherwise; it doesn’t really detract from the facts of his message. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2006, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboating-john-murtha/339967/3 "2006-01-14T16:39:09Z")
Pardon my ignorance, but is this a right-wing news service? I would also have to say that when something can be cleared up easily by producing records, it would seem that it would be prudent to do so and quiet the critics. Murtha seems to do a lot of dodging on the subject, if the article is at all accurate. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2006, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboating-john-murtha/339967/4 "2006-01-14T16:40:38Z")
Acording to the article, the principle critic of Murtha is a Pennsylvania Democrat, and has been saying this for decades. How does that make him a “Cocksucking conservative”? And why is it that you find this story objectionable, yet lead the charge to criticize Bush over his record in the National Guard? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2006, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboating-john-murtha/339967/5 "2006-01-14T16:49:05Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Pardon my ignorance, but is this a right-wing news service? I think so, the home page has the logo “The Right News. Right Now”. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2006, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboating-john-murtha/339967/6 "2006-01-14T17:11:56Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Acording to the article, the principle critic of Murtha is a Pennsylvania Democrat, and has been saying this for decades. How does that make him a “Cocksucking conservative”? And why is it that you find this story objectionable, yet lead the charge to criticize Bush over his record in the National Guard? :dubious: From the OP link: [http://www.cnsnews.com/news/viewstory.asp?Page=\SpecialReports\archive\200601\SPE20060113a.html](http://www.cnsnews.com/news/viewstory.asp?Page=%5CSpecialReports%5Carchive%5C200601%5CSPE20060113a.html) > [@](#): > > The Vietnam veteran even took a swipe at President Bush and Vice President Cheney, neither of whom have actual combat experience. > > “I like guys who’ve never been there, who criticize us who’ve been there,” Murtha said. “I like that. I like guys who got five deferments and never been there and sent people to war and then don’t like to hear suggestions that what may need to be done.” Even the right wing news report does mention the context of where this is coming from. But here I see clearly who is pulling our leg: > [@](#): > > “The issue here is this idea or pretense that [Murtha] knows combat and he’s got two Purple Hearts. He’s a phony and a liar,” Bailey said. I then realize that it was politics, Murtha defeated Bailey in a bitter contest; by this time, it is obvious that the voters did not consider Bailey’s charges credible. Only a liar would say that Murtha does not know combat. [http://news.yahoo.com/s/huffpost/20060113/cm\_huffpost/013759;\_ylt=A86.I0UGK8hDjXgA3CX9wxIF;\_ylu=X3oDMTBjMHVqMTQ4BHNlYwN5bnN1YmNhdA--](http://news.yahoo.com/s/huffpost/20060113/cm_huffpost/013759;_ylt=A86.I0UGK8hDjXgA3CX9wxIF;_ylu=X3oDMTBjMHVqMTQ4BHNlYwN5bnN1YmNhdA--) > [@](#): > > “I volunteered for a year’s duty in Vietnam. I was out in the field almost every single day. We took heavy casualties in my regiment the year that I was there. In my fitness reports, I was rated No. 1. My record is clear.” ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2006, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboating-john-murtha/339967/7 "2006-01-14T17:17:21Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > I think so, the home page has the logo “The Right News. Right Now”. Ah, missed that bit. On the subject of Purple Hearts: most people think you have to be seriously injured to acquire one. Not so. I knew guys in Vietnam who received scratches and were awarded. It’s not the injury, it’s how it was received that matters. If it’s a result of hostile action, it’s medal time, and the award carries no less honor because of the lack of severity of the wound. If Murtha has been embellishing his injuries, shame on him, but if he was awarded the medals properly, then nobody should be criticizing. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2006, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboating-john-murtha/339967/8 "2006-01-14T17:27:38Z")
GIGObuster, I know who Murtha is, I was taking issue with Hentor’s characterization of this as some new Republican mud slinging. From that article, this appears to be far from the case here. I also wonder why Murtha doesn’t just release his service records and end this matter once and for all. If it happened to me, that would be my first more: “Here are the records that prove you’re full of shit, now STFU, asshole.” That article says he refuses to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2006, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboating-john-murtha/339967/9 "2006-01-14T17:28:26Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > I would also have to say that when something can be cleared up easily by producing records, it would seem that it would be prudent to do so and quiet the critics. Murtha seems to do a lot of dodging on the subject, if the article is at all accurate. I used to think so too, **Chefguy** , until the swiftboat incident went down. At the time, a little independent fact-checking would have shown Kerry’s naysayers to be not only in the wrong but self-contradictory, and I thought it would resolve itself (A nice big :rolleyes: to myself for _that_ stupid assumption). When the swifties succeeded in unjustifiably trashing Kerry’s reputation, I relearned an important lesson about human nature for probably the 17th time in my life. In my darker moments, I believe that when we re-elected Dubya, we got _exactly_ the kind of president we deserved. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2006, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboating-john-murtha/339967/10 "2006-01-14T17:39:08Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > GIGObuster, I know who Murtha is, I was taking issue with Hentor’s characterization of this as some new Republican mud slinging. From that article, this appears to be far from the case here. > > I also wonder why Murtha doesn’t just release his service records and end this matter once and for all. If it happened to me, that would be my first more: “Here are the records that prove you’re full of shit, now STFU, asshole.” That article says he refuses to do so. The article said that \*\*Bailey and others claim it is so \*\*, but on the same article: > [@](#): > > According to a May 16, 2002, edition of the Washington, Pa., Observer-Reporter, Murtha “produced military paperwork indicating he was entitled to the awards,” and a Murtha spokesperson was quoted as saying that “the media for years has investigated ‘and found nothing.’” ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2006, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboating-john-murtha/339967/11 "2006-01-14T17:50:46Z")
That edition of the Observer-Reporter is probably not online at this time, but I’ll bet it’s in the Washington, PA library. It’d just take a bit of effort to head to Citizen’s Library in Washington and look up that article. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2006, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboating-john-murtha/339967/12 "2006-01-14T18:49:17Z")
> [@Una Persson](#): > > So…are you disupting the facts _alleged_ in the article, and going to offer some cites to counter them, or is this just another anti-Conservative rant? > > PS, I’m a Conservative who thinks Murtha is/was **right** , BTW, so let’s burn that strawman before it starts being stuffed. I also don’t give a rat’s ass about his status as “war hero” or otherwise; it doesn’t really detract from the facts of his message. I’m suggesting that it is incumbent upon those making such allegations to come up with facts in the first fucking place. This idea that conservatives making such charges were due the benefit of the doubt, or that a wait and see attitude was appropriate, was ass-fucked when the Swiftboaters burned that bridge. They made all the same noise, alleging all the same things, and it all turned out to be false. Show me something or fuck off. Or do you support the Republican tactic of besmirching veteran’s records without evidence when they disagree with that veteran? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2006, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboating-john-murtha/339967/13 "2006-01-14T19:07:10Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > Or do you support the Republican tactic of besmirching veteran’s records without evidence when they disagree with that veteran? I’ve yet to see any evidence this is an official Republican tactic. Sure, the Swift Boat Veterans were republicans but they weren’t elected officials in the Republican party, their actions weren’t controlled by the RNC and et cetera. In this particular case a Democrat is a big part of the besmirching, so I fail to see how it is a “Republican tactic.” As it is, honestly I think people like Murtha and Kerry got what they deserved. I’m a veteran myself and personally I would never use my service record to try and make it appear I’m specially equipped (in preference over civilian politicians) to talk about or debate strategic-level, national military policies. I strongly believe in a **civilian** government with **civilian** control of the military. I tend to find it a little distasteful when _any_ veteran starts touting his own personal experience as making him more qualified to talk about some military matter than a civilian. That should never be the case, our country was designed so that civilians had oversight of the military. And I say this even about politicians who I strongly support, like John McCain for example. Personally the only time I think it would be acceptable for someone to use their service record in politicis would be if the person was running for office and was a career military officer and didn’t have much else on his resume. Obviously someone like Wesley Clark for example would find it prudent to use his service record as proof that he’s had advanced leadership experience at a very high level. But at the lower levels of the military where guys like Murtha, McCain, and Kerry served, their experiences really don’t give them any special authority on leading a country **or** conducting a war. Ask a general like Powell or Clark how much credence they would give to the opinions of a 1st lieutenant or a private on conducting a large scale military operation; the answer would be little to none. ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2006, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboating-john-murtha/339967/14 "2006-01-14T19:15:57Z")
Why do Republicans hate veterans so much? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2006, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboating-john-murtha/339967/15 "2006-01-14T19:16:05Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > I’m suggesting that it is incumbent upon those making such allegations to come up with facts in the first fucking place. This idea that conservatives making such charges were due the benefit of the doubt, or that a wait and see attitude was appropriate, was ass-fucked when the Swiftboaters burned that bridge. They made all the same noise, alleging all the same things, and it all turned out to be false. Show me something or fuck off. > > Or do you support the Republican tactic of besmirching veteran’s records without evidence when they disagree with that veteran? Accordingf to the article, it was a DEMOCRAT making the charges. Yes? ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2006, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboating-john-murtha/339967/16 "2006-01-14T19:17:57Z")
Swiftboating is a good verb. I prefer [Clelanded,](http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/2002-11-06-chambliss_x.htm) though. George Bush **thinks** about maybe looking into going to Vietnam, until he sobers up, and his people have the balls to criticize fucking combat veterans. How am I supposed to have anything but contempt for this president? ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2006, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboating-john-murtha/339967/17 "2006-01-14T20:31:28Z")
And of course, it’s all just a coincidence that these allegations mysteriously pop up after Murtha says something that ruffles the Republican’s feathers and not say, 30 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2006, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboating-john-murtha/339967/18 "2006-01-14T21:12:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Accordingf to the article, it was a DEMOCRAT making the charges. Yes? The article is the attack. It uses charges from a democratic opponent of Murtha’s, the aide to a deceased GOP Congressman, and a GOP congressional challenger. More importantly, however, it is the product of Marc Morano, of the CNSNews. > [@](#): > > Marc Morano is Senior Staff Writer for [CNSNews.com](http://CNSNews.com) and is previously known as Rush Limbaugh’s “Man in Washington,” as reporter and producer for the Rush Limbaugh Television Show, as well as a former correspondent and producer for American Investigator, the nationally syndicated TV newsmagazine. So, to which of these people were you singularly referring? Since you suggest there is one person making charges, and since Morano is primarily responsible for this piece, I would say that it was not a DEMOCRAT making the charges, but a CONSERVATIVE AND PRESUMABLY REPUBLICAN HACK. Or perhaps you think including an attack from a nominal Democrat makes it an act of the Democrats? If so, I would ask you if the Republican convention last year was of the Democrats because Zell Miller delivered an address there? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2006, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboating-john-murtha/339967/19 "2006-01-14T21:16:24Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > And of course, it’s all just a coincidence that these allegations mysteriously pop up after Murtha says something that ruffles the Republican’s feathers and not say, 30 years ago. Well, lets be straight: this is old news, and yes it was a Democrat who first launched the accusations, the conservative BS comes indeed for the timely reheating of same BS when it was confronted before. > **[Web Site Attacks Critic of War](https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/13/AR2006011301736.html)** > [@](#): > > He [Bailey] said he shared the information with Republican William Choby, **who ran against Murtha four times beginning in 1990 and made the Vietnam decorations an issue. Choby raised the issue again during Murtha’s 2002 reelection campaign**. Oh yeah, the Choby lost again. It is clear to me that this [del]reheat[/del] release was timed as an attempt to discredit Murtha since he was interviewed by 60 minutes, and the interview will be aired tomorrow. > [@](#): > > The Cybercast article appeared shortly before a segment scheduled for CBS’s “60 Minutes” tomorrow in which Murtha predicts that the “vast majority” of U.S. troops will be out of Iraq by year’s end. [http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/01/13/60minutes/main1208423.shtml](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/01/13/60minutes/main1208423.shtml) ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2006, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboating-john-murtha/339967/20 "2006-01-14T21:18:11Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > And of course, it’s all just a coincidence that these allegations mysteriously pop up after Murtha says something that ruffles the Republican’s feathers and not say, 30 years ago. No cites but living in Murtha’s district, it may of took this long to go national but it has been discussed in the local paper here at least once in years past. \*And for the record I vote for Murtha, for purely selfish reasons. He has been around a long time and brings scads of pork $ to our area. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboating-john-murtha/339967.md?page=2)