# Swiftboating John Murtha **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 14, 2006, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboating-john-murtha/339967 "2006-01-14T15:52:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboating-john-murtha/339967/41 "2006-01-15T22:37:46Z")
> [@wring](#): > > Eisenhower? No thanks. I’ve already eaten. ---
**Author:** ![MackoUr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eada6e/32.png) [@MackoUr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MackoUr)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboating-john-murtha/339967/42 "2006-01-15T22:53:26Z")
> [@Lamar Mundane](#): > > I can’t imagine anyone running (or winning) based on a platform of “I was a war hero”. U.S. Grant? Andrew Jackson? ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboating-john-murtha/339967/43 "2006-01-15T23:35:04Z")
> [@Lamar Mundane](#): > > I can’t imagine anyone running (or winning) based on a platform of “I was a war hero”. [“Tippecanoe and Tyler too.”](http://www.bartleby.com/59/11/tippecanoean.html) ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2006, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboating-john-murtha/339967/44 "2006-01-16T00:03:23Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > [“Tippecanoe and Tyler too.”](http://www.bartleby.com/59/11/tippecanoean.html) I’ll agree with Harrison but I don’t think the others made an issue of their war records, their service was common knowledge at the time. Still, the issue is did Murtha use his Vietnam service as a campaign tactic? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2006, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboating-john-murtha/339967/45 "2006-01-16T00:14:05Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > You don’t. They do. They are the ones who have to show me something or fuck off. I can see why you’re so upset. Personally attacking a politician just because they disagree with him? Thank God nobody on the left would ever do such a thing and make specious accusations. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2006, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboating-john-murtha/339967/46 "2006-01-16T00:14:16Z")
as Eisenhower was **only** known as a general, I don’t see how his military record could possibly seen as a ‘not a campaign issue’. w/o his military history, he’d never have been known enough to run let alone get the nomination, win the election. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2006, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboating-john-murtha/339967/47 "2006-01-16T02:46:43Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I can see why you’re so upset. Personally attacking a politician just because they disagree with him? > > Thank God nobody on the left would ever do such a thing and make specious accusations. > > :rolleyes: You’re being obtuse. Such stupidity doesn’t suit you. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2006, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboating-john-murtha/339967/48 "2006-01-16T03:06:16Z")
Gotta disagree with you on that, **Hentor**. Yes, unfortunately it \*does \* suit him anymore. **wring** , I’d suggest to you that Eisenhower was known for his political and diplomatic skill as Allied Supreme Commander at least as much as for his military strategic skill. That’s what established his bona fides as Presidential timber, in a way that no other uniformed WW2 leader other than perhaps George Marshall could think of matching. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2006, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboating-john-murtha/339967/49 "2006-01-16T03:27:45Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > You’re being obtuse. No. You’re just not that swift. Has your hypocrisy become self-aware yet? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2006, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboating-john-murtha/339967/50 "2006-01-16T03:30:51Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > **wring** , I’d suggest to you that Eisenhower was known for his political and diplomatic skill as Allied Supreme Commander at least as much as for his military strategic skill. That’s what established his bona fides as Presidential timber, in a way that no other uniformed WW2 leader other than perhaps George Marshall could think of matching. [His residual popularity as a World War II commander made him the leader throughout the campaign.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_election,_1952) the issue was raised ‘who would/did run/win based on military record.’ Eisenhowers military record was a large part of his selection and win. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2006, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboating-john-murtha/339967/51 "2006-01-16T04:51:59Z")
> [@Lamar Mundane](#): > > Is there any evidence at all that Murtha implied or explicitly stated that he was a “War Hero”, or is this just a made-up claim by Republicans to provide a justification for attacking him? Like I said earlier, I don’t know much about him, but he doesn’t seem like the type. However, in the post you quoted, I was responding to a more general question from **Hamlet** , not about Murtha specifically. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2006, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboating-john-murtha/339967/52 "2006-01-16T14:55:54Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > No. You’re just not that swift. > Has your hypocrisy become self-aware yet? If your stupidity was actually unintended, let me disabuse you of it. “Personally attacking” is different than “lying about someone,” or “smearing” someone. I honestly believe there is no act of any conservative that you will not defend, to the point of lying or mischaracterization. You are not even a useful idiot. You are a worthless tool. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2006, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboating-john-murtha/339967/53 "2006-01-16T15:16:16Z")
> [@Ink a dink a dink](#): > > Don’t get me wrong - there are situations where I believe military intervention is a good thing. > > Inky I would put it more that sometimes military intervention is necessary but only as a last resort. If there is a good outcome to a situation where military force was used I think it is a result of well done diplomatic or economic work, like the Marshall Plan for instance, after the fighting stops. The war part merely decided who was going to make the decisions about what to do. ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2006, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboating-john-murtha/339967/54 "2006-01-16T16:33:42Z")
> [@Lamar Mundane](#): > > I can’t imagine anyone running (or winning) based on a platform of “I was a war hero”. To add to the other suggestions: - Teddy Roosevelt? - JFK? - Taylor? - And if this guy doesn’t fit the bill, noone does - George Washington. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2006, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboating-john-murtha/339967/55 "2006-01-16T16:53:21Z")
> [@Atticus Finch](#): > > To add to the other suggestions: > > - Teddy Roosevelt? > - JFK? > - Taylor? > - And if this guy doesn’t fit the bill, noone does - George Washington. There is a difference between having a war record and running on it. Obviously Washington was known for his war record, but did he make broadsheets of himself crossing the Delaware and post them all over town? _Originally Posted by Martin Hyde As it is, honestly I think people like Murtha and Kerry got what they deserved. I’m a veteran myself and personally I would never use my service record to try and make it appear I’m specially equipped (in preference over civilian politicians) to talk about or debate strategic-level, national military policies. I strongly believe in a civilian government with civilian control of the military. I tend to find it a little distasteful when any veteran starts touting his own personal experience as making him more qualified to talk about some military matter than a civilian. That should never be the case, our country was designed so that civilians had oversight of the military._ The above is what I’m talking about. The claim is that Murtha “tout(ed) his own personal experience…” when running. I have seen no evidence of this. Everything I have seen from him shows a pretty humble guy who just happens to disagree with the president. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2006, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboating-john-murtha/339967/56 "2006-01-16T19:03:32Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > If your stupidity was actually unintended, let me disabuse you of it. “Personally attacking” is different than “lying about someone,” or “smearing” someone. Thanks for the semantics lesson, Webster. As usual though, your head is so far up your ass its impeding your bowels. This leads us to the happy conundrum as to whether your cosntipation be mental is merely alliterative or factually literal. At any rate, lying or smearing can both be forms of personal attacks, so wrong as usual. > [@](#): > > I honestly believe there is no act of any conservative that you will not defend, to the point of lying or mischaracterization. I haven’t defended anything. I’ve just pointed out that you’re a hypocrite. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboating-john-murtha/339967/57 "2006-01-17T01:07:53Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Of COURSE they weren’t. Not at all. Not even a little bit. > > Totally unconnected. > > Are you so fucking stupid as to believe that? Seriously, I’d love to see an answer. > > -Joe I didn’t say they were unconnected. Man, what is it with people deliberately misreading what I post? If you can’t find something to attack in what I actually wrote then just don’t reply at all. I said that I had seen no evidence the RNC _controlled_ the Swiftboat Veterans, I never said I considered them unconnected with the Republican party. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboating-john-murtha/339967/58 "2006-01-17T03:07:56Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I don’t think Bush ever used his military record to pump up his political street cred Do the words “Mission Accomplished” mean anything to you? Dude, the Swifties were fucking liars. Kerry’s military cred was legit. No matter how much you think that Kerry was politicizing his military service (just like Bob Dole and Ike Eisenhower and George Washington before him) , that did not justify the efforts to slander him and _lie_ about him. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboating-john-murtha/339967/59 "2006-01-17T08:26:13Z")
The first thing that I remember hearing about Murtha was that his statement calling for a limited withdrawal was a surprise because he was definitely not known on the Hill as a dove. It wasn’t until a couple of days had passed that I learned that he had served in the military. I _never_ heard him boast about his military experiences at all. When the freshman Congresswoman was so critical of him before the House that they had to adjourn for the day, it was then that I learned that Murtha had himself been in the U.S. Marines. It wasn’t until this thread that I learned he had Purple Hearts. In doing a little digging for my response, I learned that he was in the Maines in the 1950’s and then reinlisted in 1966 when he was in his mid-thirties to go to Vietnam. (I wonder what the Bronze Star was for.) He was also the first Vietnam vet to enter Congress. I still haven’t heard _him_ talk about any of this. Hey, I’m a pacifist. Military experience doesn’t impress me. But when I saw _swiftboat_ being used as a verb in the title of the OP, I knew _exactly_ what it meant. Someone should alert lexicographers. Do any of you seriously think that these rumors are being reintoduced by liberals and Democrats? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboating-john-murtha/339967/60 "2006-01-17T13:10:45Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > I didn’t say they were unconnected. > > Man, what is it with people deliberately misreading what I post? If you can’t find something to attack in what I actually wrote then just don’t reply at all. > > I said that I had seen no evidence the RNC _controlled_ the Swiftboat Veterans, I never said I considered them unconnected with the Republican party. A very, very, very fine distinction indeed. You are saying that unless we can find some sort of command-and-control apparatus running from the RNC to the Swiftboats, the RNC wasn’t running them. The links that were cited show very clearly that the Republican leadership was working hand-in-glove with the Swiftboaters. Parties don’t always find it good to have a formal command and control structure in place when they’re doing dirty tricks work. I’m sure you understand why. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboating-john-murtha/339967.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiftboating-john-murtha/339967.md?page=4)