# Swimming: legs vs arms **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 23, 2010, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swimming-legs-vs-arms/551150 "2010-08-23T13:35:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swimming-legs-vs-arms/551150/1 "2010-08-23T13:35:07Z")
In swimming, what proportion of forward movement do the arms and legs each supply? Are the arms the “prime mover” or is it the legs or is it roughly equal? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swimming-legs-vs-arms/551150/2 "2010-08-23T13:50:55Z")
I’m pretty sure the legs are the main source of power. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swimming-legs-vs-arms/551150/3 "2010-08-23T13:53:55Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I’m pretty sure the legs are the main source of power. If that were true, you’d expect people to move a lot faster when using kickboards, but they don’t, they go pretty slowly. In my experience, (when doing front-crawl) the legs provide a little bit of forward power but are most useful for keeping your body straight. The arms provide most of the power to move you forward. On the other hand, with breast-stroke, most of the power does indeed come from the frog kick. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swimming-legs-vs-arms/551150/4 "2010-08-23T14:02:37Z")
I was a competitive swimmer for years. Except for the breaststroke, you get most of your power from your arms. ---
**Author:** ![cornflakes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9d8465/32.png) [@cornflakes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornflakes)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swimming-legs-vs-arms/551150/5 "2010-08-23T14:05:10Z")
IIRC, the breaststroke is the only competitive stroke that relies on the legs for power. The freestyle, backstroke and butterfly rely overwhelmingly on the arms. The sidestroke and elementary backstroke rely on the legs, but I don’t think that either is considered a competitive stroke. When swimming freestyle, I swam faster laps with less effort when I used leg floats (pull buoys) than I did when I kicked. This was when I was playing at running triathlons, and the common wisdom at the time was that unless you came from a swimming background, the scissors kick of the freestyle was best used only to keep your legs up and your body in trim. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swimming-legs-vs-arms/551150/6 "2010-08-23T14:45:33Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > > [@Alessan](#): > > > > I’m pretty sure the legs are the main source of power. > > If that were true, you’d expect people to move a lot faster when using kickboards, but they don’t, they go pretty slowly. In my experience, (when doing front-crawl) the legs provide a little bit of forward power but are most useful for keeping your body straight. The arms provide most of the power to move you forward. > . Good point - I stand corrected. (To be fair, I was taught the breaststroke before I learned freestyle, so maybe that piece of information stuck). ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swimming-legs-vs-arms/551150/7 "2010-08-23T15:08:57Z")
I swam competitively in high school, and swim laps today. Here’s what I can add: If I’m swimming laps (equivalent in level of effort to someone jogging) using the front crawl, there is no _significant_ difference in my speed between swimming with arms and legs, and using a pull-buoy (a float between my legs). When using arms and legs, my kick is a relatively slow 2-4 beat kick (2-4 kicks per full arm stroke), and it’s only about enough to keep my legs up and body trimmed. There is a slight reduction in effort with the pull buoy, because my body will stay in trim without having to kick. If anything, because of the slight reduction in effort, I can swim _slightly_ longer and faster with the pull buoy than without when swimming a long distance, such as 1,000 yards or more. I actually like using the pull buoy in workouts, because it forces me to stay trimmed and continue using the front crawl. (It’s impossible to switch to a resting stroke like breaststroke with the pull buoy in place.) If I’m sprinting, like I did competitively in high school, I can definitely go faster with arms and legs as opposed to just arms. The kick in this case is a 6-8 beat kick, and I’m kicking as hard as I possibly can. I would only be able to keep up this level of effort for the distance of a sprint race (50- or 100-yards). If you consider a stroke such as breaststroke, sidestroke, or elementary backstroke, the kick is essential to the stroke. You simply can’t do the stroke with a pull buoy. Next, if I’m using a kickboard and doing the flutter kick, I can go pretty fast, but only if I’m doing a sprint-type kick, which I can’t keep going for very long. In a workout, I usually alternate between a fast flutter kick and a breaststroke kick for each 25-yard length of the pool. If I kick with a slow 2-beat flutter kick, I don’t go all that fast. Finally, this whole calculation changes when you start adding equipment. If I put swim fins on, I can get a whole lot more power and speed out of my legs. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swimming-legs-vs-arms/551150/8 "2010-08-23T15:23:30Z")
> [@robby](#): > > If I’m swimming laps (equivalent in level of effort to someone jogging) using the front crawl, there is no significant difference in my speed between swimming with arms and legs, and using a pull-buoy (a float between my legs). My experience, too. I’ve done a few open water swim races (amateur) with wet suits. That’s pretty similar to having a pull-buoy. I don’t kick at all, and I would still place in the top 10% consistently. OTOH, if you have ginormous feet like Michael Phelps, that might make a slight difference. ---
**Author:** ![mack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mack)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swimming-legs-vs-arms/551150/9 "2010-08-23T17:27:17Z")
> [@cornflakes](#): > > This was when I was playing at running triathlons, and the common wisdom at the time was that unless you came from a swimming background, the scissors kick of the freestyle was best used only to keep your legs up and your body in trim. Just a nitpick - the kick you typically use with freestyle is the flutter kick. The scissor kick is the underwater one you use for sidestroke (and the one breaststrokers can slip into if they’re not careful). ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swimming-legs-vs-arms/551150/10 "2010-08-23T18:15:01Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > OTOH, if you have ginormous feet like Michael Phelps, that might make a slight difference. From the looks of his thighs ([here](http://static.thehollywoodgossip.com/images/gallery/michael-phelps-shirtless.jpg)), it certainly looks like he is using his leg muscles. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swimming-legs-vs-arms/551150/11 "2010-08-23T18:21:58Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > > [@John\_Mace](#): > > > > OTOH, if you have ginormous feet like Michael Phelps, that might make a slight difference. > > From the looks of his thighs ([here](http://static.thehollywoodgossip.com/images/gallery/michael-phelps-shirtless.jpg)), it certainly looks like he is using his leg muscles. Of course he’s _using_ them. That doesn’t mean that most of his forward motion comes from his legs, though. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swimming-legs-vs-arms/551150/12 "2010-08-23T18:22:56Z")
On the other hand, it’s certainly possible to swim primarily with the legs. I find that when I swim, I get almost all of my propulsion from my legs. I’m quite confident that my form is lousy, and I wouldn’t stand a chance in any sort of competition, but it’s what comes most naturally to me. ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swimming-legs-vs-arms/551150/13 "2010-08-23T18:40:33Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > I was a competitive swimmer for years. Except for the breaststroke, you get most of your power from your arms. Why is there a limit on dolphin kicking in Olympic swimming, then? ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swimming-legs-vs-arms/551150/14 "2010-08-23T18:41:41Z")
Well, there have certainly been swimming competitions won by people born without arms. And not restricted competitions, but open ones against swimmers with arms. There is even an armless french man who plans to attempt to swim the English Channel. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swimming-legs-vs-arms/551150/15 "2010-08-23T18:53:09Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > > [@robby](#): > > > > If I’m swimming laps (equivalent in level of effort to someone jogging) using the front crawl, there is no significant difference in my speed between swimming with arms and legs, and using a pull-buoy (a float between my legs). > > My experience, too. I’ve done a few open water swim races (amateur) with wet suits. That’s pretty similar to having a pull-buoy. I don’t kick at all, and I would still place in the top 10% consistently. > > OTOH, if you have ginormous feet like Michael Phelps, that might make a slight difference. I swam competitively in HS. did the individual medley (Butterfly, backstroke, breast and crawl) Assuming you have long legs, the legs also contribute a lot in the butterfly. I have very short legs, so not so much. However there was this one time in the ocean where I had my SCUBA fins on and I started doing the butterfly. Damn, thought I was turbocharged there. MP’s feet might be helping him. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swimming-legs-vs-arms/551150/16 "2010-08-23T19:01:25Z")
> [@hogarth](#): > > Why is there a limit on dolphin kicking in Olympic swimming, then? The dolphins didn’t like it. ---
**Author:** ![GHO57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df788c/32.png) [@GHO57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GHO57)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swimming-legs-vs-arms/551150/17 "2010-08-23T19:08:15Z")
> [@hogarth](#): > > > [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > > > I was a competitive swimmer for years. Except for the breaststroke, you get most of your power from your arms. > > Why is there a limit on dolphin kicking in Olympic swimming, then? Because the events are defined by the style used? And AFAIK there currently isn’t an Olympic diving event. So, it’s the same reason they don’t allow Segways in the 100M running. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swimming-legs-vs-arms/551150/18 "2010-08-23T19:29:21Z")
> [@hogarth](#): > > > [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > > > I was a competitive swimmer for years. Except for the breaststroke, you get most of your power from your arms. > > Why is there a limit on dolphin kicking in Olympic swimming, then? Can you clarify your question? What limit on dolphin kicking are you referring to? The dolphin kick is part of the butterfly stroke, and certainly uses the legs. (Actually, for me, I use my whole body.) You can actually make very good progress using just the dolphin kick without the arms (although in my experience, it’s more efficient when done completely underwater). In any event, the butterfly would be very difficult without the leg motion of the dolphin kick. The breaststroke uses the whip kick. Historically, the butterfly arm motion was a variant of the breaststroke arm motion, because it’s faster to bring the arms forward through the air instead of through the water. After most competitive breaststroke swimmers switched to the butterfly arm motion in the late 1930s, the butterfly became it’s own stroke in the 1950s, and the butterfly arm motion was prohibited for competitive breaststroke. Today, the breaststroke has more rules and restrictions than any other competitive stroke. In competitive breaststroke, you are also allowed one full pullout (arms down to the sides) after a turn. Reading the [wikipedia entry](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaststroke), it appears that a single dolphin kick is also allowed during the pullout after a turn, as of 2005. Perhaps this is what **hogarth** is referring to? In any event, this is after my time–I’m not familiar with this being allowed. In any event, **hogarth** , **The Hamster King** said “_except_ for breaststroke.” In other words, much of the forward progress in breaststroke does indeed come from the legs. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swimming-legs-vs-arms/551150/19 "2010-08-23T19:40:04Z")
> [@hogarth](#): > > Why is there a limit on dolphin kicking in Olympic swimming, then? The original rules for the breaststroke were loose enough to allow you to use a dolphin kick and out-of-the-water arm recovery. This is much faster than the traditional breaststroke, so everyone started swimming that way. Faced with the extinction of the traditional breaststroke, the authorities made the rules more restrictive, and created a new event called the butterfly. Why keep the breaststroke when its slower? Because it’s interesting to have different strokes, and a wider variety of events gives more people a chance to compete. The butterfly, while faster than the breaststroke, is still slower than the crawl, which is why the latter is used almost exclusively in freestyle events. ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swimming-legs-vs-arms/551150/20 "2010-08-23T19:40:05Z")
> [@GHO57](#): > > > [@hogarth](#): > > > > Why is there a limit on dolphin kicking in Olympic swimming, then? > > Because the events are defined by the style used? And AFAIK there currently isn’t an Olympic diving event. So, it’s the same reason they don’t allow Segways in the 100M running. Let me clarify. According to [this article](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=93575235), you’re only allowed to dolphin kick for at most 15 metres underwater in Olympic swimming. Doesn’t that imply that swimming with the legs is more efficient in general, at least underwater? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swimming-legs-vs-arms/551150.md?page=2)