# Swingers club in residential area **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 8, 2007, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swingers-club-in-residential-area/429309 "2007-12-08T18:54:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2007, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swingers-club-in-residential-area/429309/21 "2007-12-10T00:42:15Z")
So, enough to buy several bottles of decent wine, then? Unless you have some specific knowledge about this specific sex club, I don’t see how you can possibly make any definitive statements about the financial arrangements. ---
**Author:** ![Pixilated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/aeb1de/32.png) [@Pixilated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pixilated)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2007, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swingers-club-in-residential-area/429309/22 "2007-12-10T02:07:16Z")
[QUOTE=Gorsnak] So, enough to buy several bottles of decent wine, then? Unless you have some specific knowledge about this specific sex club, I don’t see how you can possibly make any definitive statements about the financial arrangements. [/QUOTE] :rolleyes: yeah, ok, I pulled that one out of my (censored!) =P Alcohol is usually BYOB. And ummm… What is this - the presidential elections? ok fine! I tried it but I never inhaled… errr… inter-coursed… at one of these parties. You see, it was a suprise birthday present that I was lured into… yeah, that’s it… and I was young and naive (some things just havent changed over the years) and curiosity got the best of me (besides, I was try-sexual at the time)… and a recovering cathaholic with a control freaked mother… It was either that or years of psycho-therapy. I decided on the less expensive and drug-free way to increase endorphines. And I’d do it over again if I had to, dabnabbit! ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2007, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swingers-club-in-residential-area/429309/23 "2007-12-10T02:41:14Z")
A hundred people arriving at a home on a residential street is a huge traffic problem, unless you’re busing them in. If I had a neighbour who was regularly holding parties of a hundred people late at night and their cars were all over the place and the guy was charging money to get in (and please don’t pretend that isn’t happening here) I’d call the city council and demand action, too. I wouldn’t care if they were fucking or watching “Hoosiers” on the big screen in there. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2007, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swingers-club-in-residential-area/429309/24 "2007-12-10T02:54:34Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] I wouldn’t care if they were fucking or watching “Hoosiers” on the big screen in there. [/QUOTE] But one of the important distinctions is that Duncanville does. They didn’t outlaw having public events at one’s home where donations are encouraged; they outlawed “sex clubs in residential areas”. It seems Duncanville hasn’t recognized the same type of traffic and other problems would result if someone were having huge poker tournaments in their homes; they specifically went after the sex club angle to it. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2007, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swingers-club-in-residential-area/429309/25 "2007-12-10T08:26:04Z")
[QUOTE=villa] Never heard of the House Church movement? [/quote] Nope [QUOTE=villa] And also if you look up in the urban North East, for example, you will see plenty of Churches without parking. [/quote] Yeah? Because they’re on city streets? And the Church is shoehorned in-between other buildings, maybe? But we’re not talking about the urban northeast. We’re talking suburban Texas. [QUOTE=villa] Even in suburban Nashville when I was there I saw plenty of Churches that would have special parking dispensations made for them. [/QUOTE] Goody for Nashville. But we’re not talking about Nashville. We’re talking residential areas in Duncanville, Texas. With all the red herring you’re tossing out, you’re either from Norway, or a fishmonger. [QUOTE=jackdavinci] According to the article: > [@](#): > > In response to neighbors’ complaints, the city has outlawed sex clubs in residential areas. Implying that they are _not_ using existing zoning laws, but have created a new law, specifically addressing sex parties, and not these other related issues. [/QUOTE] Noooo… :dubious: They outlawed sex _clubs_. Clubs Parties C-L-U-B-S P-A-R-T-I-E-S See the difference? And what do you want to bet that it is indeed part of the zoning code for Duncanville? ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2007, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swingers-club-in-residential-area/429309/26 "2007-12-10T15:17:48Z")
[QUOTE=ExTank] Nope Yeah? Because they’re on city streets? And the Church is shoehorned in-between other buildings, maybe? But we’re not talking about the urban northeast. We’re talking suburban Texas. Goody for Nashville. But we’re not talking about Nashville. We’re talking residential areas in Duncanville, Texas. With all the red herring you’re tossing out, you’re either from Norway, or a fishmonger. [/QUOTE] Let’s look at your comment to which I was replying… [QUOTE=ExTank] Every Church I have seen has had their own building, even in predominantly residential areas, with sufficient parking on their own property. [/QUOTE] As I suggested, house churches don’t have their own buldings. Furthermore, I then responded to “every” church you had seen having its own parking, by indicating that was probably because you had a limited experience of churches if you thought that was the case. Oddly enough, you did not say “every church in Duncanville Texas” which you had seen, but instead “every church.” From seeing your location on your post as having nothing whatsoever to do with Duncanville, Texas, I assumed you were talking from personal experience, you know, like “every church [you have] seen.” I somehow missed that you were permitted to draw on your own personal experience and have it not be a red herring, yet when anyone else did, it of course became irrelevant. Similarly, I used Nashville, a city of which I have personal experience, to draw a comparison. In Nashville, and indeed other towns and cities south and north that I have experienced, Churches are regularly treated differently under traffic laws. I am assuming from your post that you know Duncanville, Texas to be different. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2007, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swingers-club-in-residential-area/429309/27 "2007-12-10T15:42:14Z")
> [@](#): > > Phoenix, for example, prohibited live sexual performances in 1998, effectively outlawing swinger parties. An appeals court upheld the law in 2003, and Duncanville used it as a blueprint when passing a ban last month. Here is the Phoenix Code, upon which the Duncanville code was based: > [@](#): > > Sec. 23-54. Findings; definitions; live sex act businesses prohibited. > A. The City Council makes the following findings: > > 1. The operation of a business for purposes of providing the opportunity to engage in, or the opportunity to view, live sex acts is declared to be a disorderly house and a public nuisance per se which should be prohibited; and > 2. The operation of a live sex act business contributes to the spread of sexually transmitted diseases; and > 3. The operation of a live sex act business is inimical to the health, safety, general welfare and morals of the inhabitants of the City of Phoenix. > 4. Evidence in support of these findings may be found in the Sex Clubs, Factual Record, and the Sexually Oriented Businesses, Factual Record, Supplement. > B. In this section, unless the context otherwise requires: > 5. Consideration means the payment of money or the exchange of any item of value for: > a. The right to enter the business premises, or any portion thereof; or > b. The right to remain on the business premises, or any portion thereof; or > c. The right to purchase any item permitting the right to enter, or remain on, the business premises, or any portion thereof; or > d. The right to a membership permitting the right to enter, or remain on, the business premises, or any portion thereof. > 6. Live sex act means any act whereby one or more persons engage in a live performance or live conduct which contains oral sexual contact or sexual intercourse. > 7. Live sex act business means any business in which one or more persons may view, or may participate in, a live sex act for a consideration. > 8. Operate and maintain means to organize, design, perpetuate or control. Operate and maintain includes providing financial support by paying utilities, rent, maintenance costs or advertising costs, supervising activities or work schedules, and directing or furthering the aims of the enterprise. > 9. Oral sexual contact means oral contact with the penis, vulva or anus. > 10. Sexual intercourse means penetration into the penis, vulva or anus by any part of the body or by any object or manual masturbatory contact with the penis or vulva. > C. It shall be unlawful for any person to operate and maintain a live sex act business. > D. Operation of a live sex act business is a public nuisance per se which may be abated by order of the Phoenix Municipal Court. > E. The City Attorney, in the name of the City of Phoenix, may apply to the Municipal Court for an order permitting the City to abate violations of this section. > F. After notice to the operator of a live sex act business, the judge shall conduct a hearing and take evidence as to whether a live sex act business is being operated in violation of this section. > G. If, at the conclusion of the hearing, the judge determines that a live sex act business is being operated in the City of Phoenix in violation of this section, an order shall be entered authorizing the City to abate the violation by closing the business. A copy of the order shall be delivered to the operator of the business and mailed to the owner of the property upon which the business is located. > H. Nothing in this section shall be construed to apply to the non-obscene presentation, showing, or performance of any play, drama, or ballet in any theater, concert hall, fine arts academy, school, institution of higher education, or similar establishment as a form of expression of opinion or communication of ideas or information, as differentiated from the promotion or exploitation of sex for the purpose of advancing the economic welfare of a commercial or business enterprise. > Phoenix City Code > Chapter 1 General Provisions > Sec. 1-5. General penalty; continuing violations. > Except for civil traffic violations for which the maximum sanction shall be two hundred fifty dollars unless a specific other penalty is provided for, whenever in this Code or in any ordinance of the City any act is prohibited or is made or is declared to be unlawful or an offense or a misdemeanor or whenever in such Code or ordinance the doing of any act is required or the failure to do any act is declared to be unlawful, where no specific penalty is provided therefor, any person violating any such provisions of this Code or any ordinance is guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor punishable by a fine not exceeding two thousand five hundred dollars or imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or probation not to exceed three years or any combination of such fine and imprisonment, and probation in the discretion of the City magistrate. Each day any violation of any provisions of this Code or of any ordinance shall continue shall constitute a separate offense. > In addition to the penalties hereinabove provided any condition caused or permitted to exist in violation of any of the provisions of this Code or any ordinance shall be deemed a public nuisance and may be, by the City, abated as provided by law and each day that such condition continues shall be regarded as a new and separate offense. [http://www.moralityinmedia.org/nolc/caseStudies/swingersPack.pdf](http://www.moralityinmedia.org/nolc/caseStudies/swingersPack.pdf) Here is a link to Duncanville’s local ordinances: [http://library4.municode.com/mcc/DocView/13711/1/49](http://library4.municode.com/mcc/DocView/13711/1/49) (which does not appear to include the recently adopted ordinance) ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2007, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swingers-club-in-residential-area/429309/28 "2007-12-10T16:31:16Z")
[QUOTE=jtgain] I tend to agree, but I am a little more skeptical than you. I would think that a swingers party would cause more external disturbance than, say, a 100 person meeting regarding the implications of the U.S. Civil War on modern day school children. I’ll admit that I’m not a swinger, and have never attended such a gathering, but I’m sure that there is loud music, alcohol, possibly drugs that a home owner in the area could be pissed off about as it affects his property values and/or quality of living. [/QUOTE] IOW, you have no idea what goes on at a wife swapping party, but you’re going to feel free to make broad assumptions based upon nothing but your own imagination, have I got that right? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2007, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swingers-club-in-residential-area/429309/29 "2007-12-10T17:47:08Z")
[QUOTE=jtgain] But, IMHO, the city is full of it when they call this activity a “business”. It clearly isn’t. Just because they have a web site and take donations doesn’t make it a business. [/quote] How is it clear that this is not a business? I saw no information that detailed just how much money the folks running the sex party collected versus how much they actually spent on foods, refreshments, etc. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tastes_of_chocolate/32/3232_2.png) [@Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tastes_of_Chocolate)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2007, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swingers-club-in-residential-area/429309/30 "2007-12-10T18:22:40Z")
I’ve heard several references to “prohibiting live sexual performances”. When does something go from people having sex to a live sexual performance? ---
**Author:** ![Pixilated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/aeb1de/32.png) [@Pixilated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pixilated)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2007, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swingers-club-in-residential-area/429309/31 "2007-12-10T18:24:55Z")
Not all swinger-parties involve loud music, alcohol, and drugs - and that assumption is like saying all blondes are ditzy. Most reputable party gatherings consist of professionals -Dr’s, Lawyers, Nurses, IT’s, Businessmen, etc. They also consist of “regular” people as well, but no matter the background these people are respectable and careful. The only thing I would be able to confirm is the noise level - Laughter and voices tend to carry regardless if it’s a football party, birthday party, or “adult” party. And I would think it’s accurate to say that the more people involved, the louder the noise level. Now, from my experience (and I’m certain things have changed over the years), these parties were by word of mouth only and there was an interview period as well. You could be invited by a regular guest if allowed (that’s how I was introduced and I’m not sure if I was more shocked by the fact that there were such parties or that my friends were involved in the lifestyle), and it certainly wasnt something advertised to the general public. Regardless the terminology used - club, party, whatever… it is what it is, isnt it? Ok, so maybe I’m sticking my foot in my mouth and being too opinionated…? ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2007, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swingers-club-in-residential-area/429309/32 "2007-12-10T20:57:43Z")
[QUOTE=Pixilated] Ok, so maybe I’m sticking my foot in my mouth [/QUOTE] Not that there’s anything wrong with that 😃 ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2007, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swingers-club-in-residential-area/429309/33 "2007-12-10T21:25:06Z")
[QUOTE=Weirddave] IOW, you have no idea what goes on at a wife swapping party, but you’re going to feel free to make broad assumptions based upon nothing but your own imagination, have I got that right? [/QUOTE] I guess you are right. My apologies if I offended anyone.. [QUOTE=MGibson] How is it clear that this is not a business? I saw no information that detailed just how much money the folks running the sex party collected versus how much they actually spent on foods, refreshments, etc. [/quote] Because if you call this a business then if I have a few friends over to watch the game, and they chip in a few bucks for beer, then the city could ALSO call that a business under the same premise. It’s a far too overreaching definition when it is talking about things you are doing in your home. The city should be honest and simply say that they are trying to outlaw these sex clubs, and not a “business”. What if the owner of the house footed the whole tab and charged nothing and didn’t accept donations? The same thing would be going on, so why does the city care about the financial aspect of it? ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2007, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swingers-club-in-residential-area/429309/34 "2007-12-10T22:35:52Z")
I found this wording in [a different article](http://www.pegasusnews.com/news/2007/nov/16/duncanville-city-council-ordinance-shuts-down-loca/). While the discussion here and elsewhere seems to be whether the Cherry Pit is a business, the code referenced here doesn’t seem to care. As worded, there is no way the Cherry Pit does NOT fall under the description, so my question is whether the ordinance is constitutional or not. > [@Duncanville Today Article](#): > > Chapter 11B was amended to Ordinance No. 2039 which states the operation and maintenance of a sex club to be unlawful and a public nuisance. Violation of the new ordinance can result in a fine of up to $2,000. > > According to the new ordinance, sex clubs include “any premise, person or organization that is presented, advertised Š or provides notification to the public that it is a swinger’s club, an adult encounter group or center Š or that provides an opportunity or an invitation to engage in or view sexual activity, stimulation or gratification.” ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2007, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swingers-club-in-residential-area/429309/35 "2007-12-10T23:27:41Z")
[QUOTE=jtgain] Because if you call this a business then if I have a few friends over to watch the game, and they chip in a few bucks for beer, then the city could ALSO call that a business under the same premise. It’s a far too overreaching definition when it is talking about things you are doing in your home. [/quote] Maybe. As I said we don’t actually know whether or not we can consider this a business because we don’t know whether the amount of money collected actually goes towards covering expenses or if there is a profit for the organizers. So I ask again, how is it clear that this is not a business? Are you privy to the internal machinations of this particular sex club? Do you possess knowledge that the rest of us don’t have access to? > [@](#): > > The city should be honest and simply say that they are trying to outlaw these sex clubs, and not a “business”. What if the owner of the house footed the whole tab and charged nothing and didn’t accept donations? What if the owner doesn’t foot the bill and would not do it without making a profit? Personally I don’t think anyone in town would have cared all that much were it not for the traffic problems . Marc ---
**Author:** ![Manduck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manduck/32/256_2.png) [@Manduck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Manduck)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2007, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swingers-club-in-residential-area/429309/36 "2007-12-10T23:48:31Z")
Wait, it’s just a $2000 fine? So if I have 100 guests at my sex party, and they chip in 20 bucks apiece, the fine is taken care of. Problem solved! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swingers-club-in-residential-area/429309.md?page=1)