# Swiss tourist gang-raped in India **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 17, 2013, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiss-tourist-gang-raped-in-india/653154 "2013-03-17T05:35:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiss-tourist-gang-raped-in-india/653154/262 "2013-07-22T17:46:54Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > [The UN Crime Trends survey](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#Sexual_violence_against_children_and_rape_statistics) says he’s right. The per capita rate in India is 1/30th that of the US, and comparable with Japan. Even if you increase it by a factor of ten to account for underreporting it’s still better than most Western states. Wow , I had no idea Sweden was such a rapey place. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiss-tourist-gang-raped-in-india/653154/263 "2013-07-22T17:49:59Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Sure, but unless you have a better figure, what are you gonna do? I think working on getting more accurate figures is probably a better option than pointing at low numbers as evidence that there isn’t a problem. I suspect we’ll see those numbers rise considerably in the next decade or so as the people of India become more willing to discuss these issues publicly. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiss-tourist-gang-raped-in-india/653154/264 "2013-07-22T17:58:16Z")
> [@truthSeeker2](#): > > Lets look at Delhi to get an idea about under-reporting - In 4 months since the December gangrape, public awareness was at the highest, Police claims that there are women officers in every police station now and officers are under specific instructions to note down complaints or FIRs immediately as the complainant arrives at the police station. Its hard to imagine that there are many rape cases going unreported these days in Delhi. New reported cases should be quite close to reality for these reasons. > [Delhi sees 158 percent increase in rape cases, 600% rise in molestation cases while 783.67% rise harassment cases since Dec.](http://in.news.yahoo.com/delhi-sees-158-percent-increase-rape-cases-police-132038883.html) > So, if x number of rape cases were being reported earlier, around 2.6x are getting reported now. y molestation cases earlier, 7y molestation cases now. z harassment cases earlier, 8.8z now. Ha ha. So since there’s been huge increases in the number of reported sex offenses in the little over a year since police decided to start actually paying attention to complaints, your conclusion is that… that surely _that_ must be all of it? You know what? I don’t think that’s the case. I think those rates is gonna be going up for quite a while yet. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiss-tourist-gang-raped-in-india/653154/265 "2013-07-22T18:02:27Z")
> [@wolfman](#): > > Wow , I had no idea Sweden was such a rapey place. I suspect it’s just a very reporty place. Plus, remember that the list is compiled from sources that aren’t actually all measuring the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiss-tourist-gang-raped-in-india/653154/266 "2013-07-22T18:20:02Z")
> [@colander](#): > > The problem is that the sexual crimes underreporting factor in play in India is likely orders of magnitude higher than ten. You’re pulling this out of your ass too though, and it’s based on little other than “These people can’t possibly be better than us”. Patriarchy, restrictive rules and large families may result in poorer quality of life for women, but at least prima facie there is no reason why they cannot also result in lower incidence of rape. ETA: I’m not actually claiming that India is any better in terms of rape statistics than other places. There is no doubt a large amount of under-reporting. But there is nothing that suggests it _has_ to be worse than anywhere else, except for the evident desire of some people in this thread for it to be so. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiss-tourist-gang-raped-in-india/653154/267 "2013-07-22T18:28:17Z")
And to make it very clear where I stand, we have a lot to do to make sure the attitude of men and the quality of life of Indian women improves - in all walks of Indian society. But sensational incidents that largely take place at the intersection of the different societies that make up India are _not_ representative of the country, and if you insist on thinking they must be, you do yourself a disservice. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiss-tourist-gang-raped-in-india/653154/268 "2013-07-23T00:13:33Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > You’re pulling this out of your ass too though, and it’s based on little other than “These people can’t possibly be better than us”. Patriarchy, restrictive rules and large families may result in poorer quality of life for women, but at least prima facie there is no reason why they cannot also result in lower incidence of rape. I suppose that it is possible that this is a society which strongly socially discourages incidents of rape reporting (police in Delhi actually have to be _ordered_ to take reports on sex crime complaints? Yeah.) and, coincidentally, actually _does_ have many fewer rapes than do countries in which such complaints are taken seriously as a matter of course. …but that’s generally not the way to bet, is it? Anyway, it is not really correct to say that we have no reason to believe that rape rates are not high there. Indian women exist here, you know? And sometimes, when we ask nicely, they talk to us about the shit that went down in the old country. ---
**Author:** ![truthSeeker2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7cd45c/32.png) [@truthSeeker2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthSeeker2)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiss-tourist-gang-raped-in-india/653154/269 "2013-07-23T02:33:12Z")
That’s for the lazy or corrupt police people. An FIR is an official record which can be tracked from top level, the officer has to fill details, update it, moved forward on the case within a time-frame as his bosses can track it and not doing so will affect his performance review. This, and people not knowing their rights lead to FIRs not getting filed. If you know your right or if the people official does his/her duty properly, FIR will be filed. After the Dec. incident, the awareness is as high as there can ever be. There were protest at many locations in Delhi(not just at India Gate), all of about 20 news channels here covering them for whole days, no other news shown. Also the steps taken by the police that I mentioned. It is hard to believe that there were many folds unreported cases or FIRs which were not filed in a few months after the incident. I read somewhere that estimated half the number of cases go unreported in the US. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiss-tourist-gang-raped-in-india/653154/270 "2013-07-23T03:02:56Z")
> [@truthSeeker2](#): > > That’s for the lazy or corrupt police people. An FIR is an official record which can be tracked from top level, the officer has to fill details, update it, moved forward on the case within a time-frame as his bosses can track it and not doing so will affect his performance review. This, and people not knowing their rights lead to FIRs not getting filed. If you know your right or if the people official does his/her duty properly, FIR will be filed. > > After the Dec. incident, the awareness is as high as there can ever be. There were protest at many locations in Delhi(not just at India Gate), all of about 20 news channels here covering them for whole days, no other news shown. Also the steps taken by the police that I mentioned. > > It is hard to believe that there were many folds unreported cases or FIRs which were not filed in a few months after the incident. I read somewhere that estimated half the number of cases go unreported in the US. How would any of that make a woman who was just raped by a friend of the family or a neighbor or her husband or a stranger she never saw and can’t possibly identify or a date that she willingly left the party with go to the cops? Rapes don’t go unreported because the police don’t file the paperwork. They go unreported because the victim thinks the shame/bother/trouble caused by reporting it will not be worth it. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiss-tourist-gang-raped-in-india/653154/271 "2013-07-23T03:11:20Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > You’re pulling this out of your ass too though, and it’s based on little other than “These people can’t possibly be better than us”. Patriarchy, restrictive rules and large families may result in poorer quality of life for women, but at least prima facie there is no reason why they cannot also result in lower incidence of rape. > > ETA: I’m not actually claiming that India is any better in terms of rape statistics than other places. There is no doubt a large amount of under-reporting. But there is nothing that suggests it _has_ to be worse than anywhere else, except for the evident desire of some people in this thread for it to be so. It could be that in the 23 countries I’ve spent time in, from South Africa to Mongolia to Honduras, I’ve never once encountered anywhere near the level of street harassment I experienced during my three months in India. Now, I’ll grant that maybe people there are just extra rapey towards foreigners, but somehow I doubt that it works like that, ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiss-tourist-gang-raped-in-india/653154/272 "2013-07-23T03:17:04Z")
> [@truthSeeker2](#): > > It is hard to believe that there were many folds unreported cases or FIRs which were not filed in a few months after the incident. I am sorry, but it is actually a very easy thing to believe. ---
**Author:** ![truthSeeker2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7cd45c/32.png) [@truthSeeker2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthSeeker2)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiss-tourist-gang-raped-in-india/653154/273 "2013-07-23T03:20:50Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > How would any of that make a woman who was just raped by a friend of the family or a neighbor or her husband or a stranger she never saw and can’t possibly identify or a date that she willingly left the party with go to the cops? Rapes don’t go unreported because the police don’t file the paperwork. They go unreported because the victim thinks the shame/bother/trouble caused by reporting it will not be worth it. Right, Vast majority - 96% of reported case were against people who the victim knew, like friends, family member, neighbor, tutor etc.. shame/bother/trouble are the main reasons. Awareness through protests and extensive media coverage plus an assurance that police will be co-operative this time around would have solved a great deal of shame/bother/trouble. Even then, there would be unreported cases, no denying, but they would not be many folds in my opinion in a few months following the incident. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiss-tourist-gang-raped-in-india/653154/274 "2013-07-23T03:41:45Z")
> [@truthSeeker2](#): > > Right, Vast majority - 96% of reported case were against people who the victim knew, like friends, family member, neighbor, tutor etc.. > shame/bother/trouble are the main reasons. > Awareness through protests and extensive media coverage plus an assurance that police will be co-operative this time around would have solved a great deal of shame/bother/trouble. Even then, there would be unreported cases, no denying, but they would not be many folds in my opinion in a few months following the incident. Police cooperativeness isn’t going to solve the problem of social fallout resulting from reporting a rape committed by family members, friends, neighbors, tutors or acquaintances. ---
**Author:** ![truthSeeker2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7cd45c/32.png) [@truthSeeker2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthSeeker2)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiss-tourist-gang-raped-in-india/653154/275 "2013-07-23T05:13:26Z")
> [@colander](#): > > Police cooperativeness isn’t going to solve the problem of social fallout resulting from reporting a rape committed by family members, friends, neighbors, tutors or acquaintances. Molestation/harassment cases have also seen a sharp rise (6-7 times) you see, that shows the change. I agree that rape has more stigma/shame/trouble associated(wrongly), but I would believe that the impact on unreported rape cases is also similar. Police cooperativeness impacts bother/trouble. If bother/trouble lessens, it impacts shame factor as well in a way. I want to emphasize again on the extent of protests and their coverage. With time, the impact may or may not wane away but in the immediate aftermath, I believe the actual figure can not be many folds the reported figures. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiss-tourist-gang-raped-in-india/653154/276 "2013-07-23T07:03:42Z")
> [@truthSeeker2](#): > > Molestation/harassment cases have also seen a sharp rise (6-7 times) you see, that shows the change. I agree that rape has more stigma/shame/trouble associated(wrongly), but I would believe that the impact on unreported rape cases is also similar. > Police cooperativeness impacts bother/trouble. If bother/trouble lessens, it impacts shame factor as well in a way. > I want to emphasize again on the extent of protests and their coverage. With time, the impact may or may not wane away but in the immediate aftermath, I believe the actual figure can not be many folds the reported figures. Whatever lets you sleep at night. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiss-tourist-gang-raped-in-india/653154/277 "2013-07-23T07:57:59Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > When was the last time you heard of a petty, nonviolent rape? 18 year old has sex with his 17 year old girlfriend and is convicted of “statutory rape”. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiss-tourist-gang-raped-in-india/653154/278 "2013-07-23T10:41:09Z")
> [@colander](#): > > Anyway, it is not really correct to say that we have no reason to believe that rape rates are not high there. Indian women exist here, you know? And sometimes, when we ask nicely, they talk to us about the shit that went down in the old country. Hahah, so you know more Indian women and more about India than me. I’m pleased for you and hope it shall bring you much by way of feeling morally superior. > [@even\_sven](#): > > It could be that in the 23 countries I’ve spent time in, from South Africa to Mongolia to Honduras, I’ve never once encountered anywhere near the level of street harassment I experienced during my three months in India. Now, I’ll grant that maybe people there are just extra rapey towards foreigners, but somehow I doubt that it works like that, Look. Criticise away, there are definitely valid grounds for it. And believe about India what you want, it’s no skin off my back. I’m not really finding out more about my country from you. I _am_ finding out more about the people that take part in this discussion, and the things they need to assert/believe, and that’s interesting, but only to a point. I’ve said what I had to, I’ll bow out of here now. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiss-tourist-gang-raped-in-india/653154/279 "2013-07-23T20:30:42Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > Hahah, so you know more Indian women and more about India than me. I’m pleased for you and hope it shall bring you much by way of feeling morally superior. So you admit that the scant attention that has historically been paid to sex-related offenses against women in India is an emerging issue that a steadily increasing number of Indians regard as a topic worthy of redress, but whenever someone who is not Indian says the same thing, they are out of line? Sorry, but that does not make too much sense to me. If you want to criticize how Western countries handle these same kinds of issues, I cheerfully invite you to go for it. I promise that I will not hold the fact of your foreign-ness up as something that somehow invalidates your criticisms. > [@](#): > > Look. Criticise away, there are definitely valid grounds for it. And believe about India what you want, it’s no skin off my back. I’m not really finding out more about my country from you. I _am_ finding out more about the people that take part in this discussion, and the things they need to assert/believe, and that’s interesting, but only to a point. I’ve said what I had to, I’ll bow out of here now. I fail to see how **even sven** ’s description of her experience in India tells you anything about how bigotted she is against Indians. It really does seem to me as if you are getting upset at the wrong people. ---
**Author:** ![StJoan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@StJoan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StJoan)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiss-tourist-gang-raped-in-india/653154/280 "2013-07-24T09:37:58Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Why is it obvious, exactly? Is the median sentence for gang rape in Madhya Pradesh much lower? Do criminal trials in that state generally take longer? Or are you maybe just pulling this stuff out of your arse? Are you really not all that bright, then? Or are you just pretending to be oblivious to the fact that rape cases can take as long as [10 years to reach judgement](http://www.trust.org/item/?map=india-opens-fast-track-courts-after-delhi-gang-rape-report/)? Relative to that time scale the high profile case under discussion has reached conclusion very quickly indeed. As for the duration of the sentence, well, there was the infamous case where the[judge forwarded the rapist’s request to marry his victim.](http://http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2005-05-03/india/27832043_1_ward-boy-shanti-mukund-hospital-comatose-patient) Then, there is the granting of bail for an officially non-bialable offence like rape. Since the bail amount is set very low, it generally means that the accused will either jump bail, or claim illness to delay further appearances in court… and continue these tactics until the victim drops her charges, gives up due to lack funds, or dies. The justice system in India is totally messed up, but it reached a new nardir of insensitivity where the victimization of women is concerned. ---
**Author:** ![StJoan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@StJoan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StJoan)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiss-tourist-gang-raped-in-india/653154/281 "2013-07-24T11:29:10Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > I’ll have you back up your slander with facts. And I’ll have you admit that you are nothing but yet another flag-waving Indian, desperate to recover their national pride after their nation’s soft, ugly, underbelly has been exposed and throughy trashed by the international media. Anyway, why are you so desperate to sympathise with a people who would treat you as a less-than- 2nd class citizen because of your gender? > [@bldysabba](#): > > Please cite the posts where I display an attitude towards women that “support a culture of misogyny to the extent that it eventually culminates in the acceptance of rape and female genocide”. My unapologetically pointed comment was aimed towards Indians (specifically, Hindus and their derivative communities) as a whole, but your extraordinarily defensive tone througout this thread clearly suggests that you would rather see the female gender debased than your national pride rapped. Methinks you need a stronger sense of self esteem, and a sense of identity divorced from both national pride and social conditioning. But hey, what do I know, eh? I am just another “pale face” who has spent too much time amongst the “brown savages” (your word, not mine!), and am just “bitter” (yeah, right!). > [@bldysabba](#): > > While a review of the thread suggests that St. Joan is personally bitter about India, and is probably just being offensive for the heck of it. Oh, I _do_ beg your pardon. I should have been quite delighted that a large number of Indian men were so enarmoured of my female charms that, at the very sight of me, they resorted to whistles, lewd songs and personal remarks whithin my earshot, is it? The umpteen attempts at butt pinching, breast groping, and, once, a full out attempt to disrobe me while walking on an (albiet isolated) street were all expressions of unbridled admiration of my pulchritude, is that so? :rolleyes: Well, you know what? _Some_ of us are quite confident of our attractiveness, and don’t need lewd reminders of it at every cornor. The sooner you get the idea, the better it will be for every one. > [@truthSeeker2](#): > > female genocide - you mean foeticide? No, I meant genocide. Unless the Indian goverment has some secret plan to enforce gender change operations on some of the surplus boys, female foeticide _is_ female genocide. > [@truthSeeker2](#): > > India doesnt need any certificate from anyone or any country. > nobody here cares abt India reputation. Then why did the swiss tourist get justice faster than the thousands of Indian women who have registered rape cases with Indian courts over the last 3-4 decades? Why should the Delhi rape victim’s case be fast tracked but not the others? Of course you care for your reputation. You are desperate to reclaim the notion that you are as good as you looked on paper. Btw, where is “here”? > [@truthSeeker2](#): > > you curse it for right reasons(politicians, misogyny, corruption etc) and I will also join in. In other words, the only problems you are willing to sypathise with are those that effect you in some measure or another. Very human, I must say. But not particularly progressive. Guess I should not expect anything more from someone who is part of the ugly Indian system. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiss-tourist-gang-raped-in-india/653154.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiss-tourist-gang-raped-in-india/653154.md?page=15)