# Swiss tourist gang-raped in India **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 17, 2013, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiss-tourist-gang-raped-in-india/653154 "2013-03-17T05:35:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Saraya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Saraya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saraya)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiss-tourist-gang-raped-in-india/653154/161 "2013-03-21T12:01:05Z")
> [@truthSeeker2](#): > > unfortunate incident. all but 1 perpetrators have been caught n hope they are soon given the punishment as per the law. > stupidity shown by the tourists, that particular area is known for banditry. Why would anyone roam around there on bicycles. Because westerners have this absurd idea that shady places are exotic. Apparently the vast Americas, or historically rich European countries are not good enough for them and their bicycle ride. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiss-tourist-gang-raped-in-india/653154/162 "2013-03-21T12:52:28Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > Men and women ARE different. There’s no getting around that. For instance, men typically are stronger than women. It would be nonsensical to treat all men and all women the same way when it comes to issues of physical strength. Or to assume that men and women are equally likely to face sexual harassment. Equal does not necessarily mean same. They’re not fundamentally different when it comes to sitting or standing on a bus. Partof equal or will involve disposing of such practices. ---
**Author:** ![gracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@gracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracer)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiss-tourist-gang-raped-in-india/653154/163 "2013-03-21T13:02:33Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > They’re not fundamentally different when it comes to sitting or standing on a bus. Partof equal or will involve disposing of such practices. Additionally, if you are absolutely adamant about treating people according to strength and ability _and_ dividing that according to gender, then I believe I have read on these boards women are expected to do slightly better than men when it comes to standing up in hot busses for a long period of time. Even then, I am fairly sure you will find that differences among the general population are greater than between the groups of men and women (old men, pregnant women), so it would make more sense to judge people as individuals, if you want to show respect by standing up for someone. Stand up for old men, pregnant women or someone who looks tired. But please don’t stand up for the “weaker sex”. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiss-tourist-gang-raped-in-india/653154/164 "2013-03-21T14:39:28Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > Men and women ARE different. There’s no getting around that. Old people are different from young people. So maybe a young, healthy woman should yield her seat on a bus to an old, frail man. The able-bodied should yield seats to the disabled regardless of gender. I think the “yield the seat to the woman” comes in part from the days when women spent a lot of their reproductive years pregnant, a condition in which being able to sit down rather than stand for long periods is a good thing. But saying “I give my seat on the bus to women” does not mean you are as sensitive and egalitarian as you think it does. ---
**Author:** ![truthSeeker2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7cd45c/32.png) [@truthSeeker2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthSeeker2)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiss-tourist-gang-raped-in-india/653154/165 "2013-03-21T14:53:51Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > They’re not fundamentally different when it comes to sitting or standing on a bus. Partof equal or will involve disposing of such practices. Between an average 50yr old woman and an average 50yo man, the woman usually would have more discomfort standing for longer times here in Delhi. Though I haven’t done any research. My 50yo mother tells me, she feels considerable relief if she gets to sit rather than stand, she travels daily for work in Delhi Metro train for 30 mins. My 55yo father on the other hand, doesn’t mind standing at all.🙂 > [@bldysabba](#): > > Oh cmon. The guy is expressing himself on a very difficult topic in his second language to people who come from an entirely different cultural context. You should be embarrassed for the behaviour you’re exhibiting here. Get off the fucking high horse already. no no, \*\*Guinastasia \*\*is correct my friend. I can express myself and should have written more than just “extremely embarrassing”. I think I understand western culture to a good extent. Been to England for around 45 days if that means anything to you. You’ve got internet, movies and news channels etc these days, so you dont need to actually travel to get an idea about cultures. There’s no shame in realizing your mistake and saying sorry which I did. > [@Broomstick](#): > > **truthseeker2** , what you are describing - being started at, touched without permission, being taken "unfair advantage of in a crowded bus - _that is sexual harassment_. In other words, the women in your circle are telling you that they are being sexually harassed. Why are you unable to hear that? I am trying to present the actual picture, keeping aside angry, cynical, exaggerating, generalizing sentiments. I am with the women’s cause all the way. I am ready to acknowledge and have acknowledged the challenges that face our society. the And you know what, I feel the protests were the best thing that ever happened to this city. They have already started to bring about an attitude shift. I have to object when 1. someone says people help only if it happens with their sister, as this is not the case. I and easily more than 90% males in my circle help or would help any unknown woman getting harassed. Generally speaking, people do help if they notice women getting harassed. 2. someone says IITs and other educational institutions are misogynist. well… 3. someone says it happens routinely and out in the open areas. Again, not true at all. Also, what I really wish is, \*\*StJoan \*\*visits India atleast one more time.🙂 because I guess she was here long back and apparently has very bad memories of India. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiss-tourist-gang-raped-in-india/653154/166 "2013-03-21T17:49:15Z")
> [@truthSeeker2](#): > > You’ve got internet, movies and news channels etc these days, so you dont need to actually travel to get an idea about cultures. If your experiences here should have taught you anything, it’s that movies and the Internet don’t really help you understand other cultures. They just make people _think_ they do. How much stupid stuff have you seen other people post about India? Tons. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiss-tourist-gang-raped-in-india/653154/167 "2013-03-21T18:22:21Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > They’re not fundamentally different when it comes to sitting or standing on a bus. Partof equal or will involve disposing of such practices. Yeah they’re not necessarily fundamentally different, but they _are_ different when you put it in the context of standing in a bus in India. Women are more likely to be sexually harassed if they’re standing in the middle of a crowd in the bus than if they’re sitting down. The entire point of my statement was that within its context, vacating a seat for someone can indeed indicate respect. > [@gracer](#): > > Additionally, if you are absolutely adamant about treating people according to strength and ability _and_ dividing that according to gender, then I believe I have read on these boards women are expected to do slightly better than men when it comes to standing up in hot busses for a long period of time. > > Even then, I am fairly sure you will find that differences among the general population are greater than between the groups of men and women (old men, pregnant women), so it would make more sense to judge people as individuals, if you want to show respect by standing up for someone. Stand up for old men, pregnant women or someone who looks tired. But please don’t stand up for the “weaker sex”. :rolleyes: I won’t stand for a girl in the US. Deal? Let Indian girls express the sentiment that making a space for them to sit in a crowded bus is a sign of disrespect, and I’ll stop doing it here. > [@Broomstick](#): > > But saying “I give my seat on the bus to women” does not mean you are as sensitive and egalitarian as you think it does. I would love for you to point out where I claim anything of this sort. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiss-tourist-gang-raped-in-india/653154/168 "2013-03-21T19:45:27Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > I won’t stand for a girl in the US. Deal? Let Indian girls express the sentiment that making a space for them to sit in a crowded bus is a sign of disrespect, and I’ll stop doing it here. I like when someone offers me a seat ---
**Author:** ![truthSeeker2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7cd45c/32.png) [@truthSeeker2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthSeeker2)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiss-tourist-gang-raped-in-india/653154/169 "2013-03-21T20:21:41Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > If your experiences here should have taught you anything, it’s that movies and the Internet don’t really help you understand other cultures. They just make people _think_ they do. > > How much stupid stuff have you seen other people post about India? Tons. correct. But still, I guess the people who really want to know will know the near accurate picture through various sources without actually having to travel. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiss-tourist-gang-raped-in-india/653154/170 "2013-03-21T20:49:09Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > Oh cmon. The guy is expressing himself on a very difficult topic in his second language to people who come from an entirely different cultural context. You should be embarrassed for the behaviour you’re exhibiting here. Get off the fucking high horse already. No, you c’mon. He said that rapes are occurring because men “aren’t getting enough sex”, he described women being burned to death as “embarrassing”, and _I’m_ the one who should be embarrassed for my behavior? I don’t think so. **truthSeeker** , provided you’re not being sarcastic, thank you. I would describe it as extremely disturbing. Maybe you meant to say “shameful” rather than “embarrassing”? But the excuses you’re making for what goes on are disgusting. I don’t give a shit about “cultural context”. Sexual harassment and assault are wrong, no matter what culture you’re from. Burning women to death shouldn’t be something that’s considered “part of someone’s culture”, but something that’s positively socipathic. If you want to complain that I’m looking down on someone’s culture, well, go right ahead. It’s disgusting no matter WHERE it happens. ---
**Author:** ![gracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@gracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracer)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiss-tourist-gang-raped-in-india/653154/171 "2013-03-21T23:24:02Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > I won’t stand for a girl in the US. Deal? Let Indian girls express the sentiment that making a space for them to sit in a crowded bus is a sign of disrespect, and I’ll stop doing it here. You should do whatever you think is best in each particular situation, no need for a deal with me. I would advise against standing for people based on nothing but their gender, but it’s up to you. The way Indian girls feel about people standing up for them has very little to do with whether or not standing up for women is a sign that that culture respects women as equals, however. There are many women who mistakenly believe that they are making the choice to wear a veil as some form of emancipation, while in other parts of the world women mistakenly believe that flashing their boobs on telly in exchange for a hat is emancipation. They are all absolutely entitled to live their lives any way they like, standing for whomever they like and being offered a seat (because of course sitting down is nice, it’s nice for everyone), wearing what they want and flashing when they want. It is not, however, a sign of a culture treating women as equals, or treating women with respect. But really, you could’ve gathered that from the rest of that particular post, which read: [QUOTE=truthSeeker2] I am talking based on the experiences of women in my circle and based on my own observations of living in this city most of my life. the women say they get stared at routinely. Have been touched occasionally - taken unfair advantage of in a crowded bus etc not in the open. they avoid going out alone during the night because they feel its not safe in the dark. routine sexual harassment - No. If they let people know about getting harassed, people do help. People often vacate their seats for women while commuting. If someone’s not vacating a seat reserved for ladies, people make sure he vacates. People in general talk to women with respect n politeness. [/QUOTE] IOW: routine sexual harassment, despite what the confused truth seeker seems to think, combined with the erroneous assumption that the sexual harassment is mitigated by treating women as precious weaklings when on the bus. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiss-tourist-gang-raped-in-india/653154/172 "2013-03-21T23:37:10Z")
In my experience, public transportation works best when passengers don’t interact at all, either in a negative or a positive manner. A man offering a seat to a woman is acknowledging her existence at a time and in a place were she doesn’t want to be acknowledged. And she \*certainly \*doesn’t want to give some guy the impression she owes him somethinng ---
**Author:** ![truthSeeker2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7cd45c/32.png) [@truthSeeker2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthSeeker2)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2013, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiss-tourist-gang-raped-in-india/653154/173 "2013-03-22T01:06:26Z")
> [@Mississippienne](#): > > Yeah, it’s so unfair to expect a dude not to put his penis in an unwilling vagina. Life is so hard for rapist bandits. > [@Guinastasia](#): > > No, you c’mon. He said that rapes are occurring because men “aren’t getting enough sex”, he described women being burned to death as “embarrassing”, and _I’m_ the one who should be embarrassed for my behavior? I don’t think so. let me try for 1 last time - In a jungle which has a serious warning abt it, which is infested by sex-starved bandits, it would extremely foolish you think that the worst that’s going to happen to you is looting. In an area which has no warnings, ideally one shouldn’t expect any criminal activity. > [@](#): > > **truthSeeker** , provided you’re not being sarcastic, thank you. I would describe it as extremely disturbing. Maybe you meant to say “shameful” rather than “embarrassing”? But the excuses you’re making for what goes on are disgusting. I don’t give a shit about “cultural context”. Sexual harassment and assault are wrong, no matter what culture you’re from. Burning women to death shouldn’t be something that’s considered “part of someone’s culture”, but something that’s positively socipathic. If you want to complain that I’m looking down on someone’s culture, well, go right ahead. > > It’s disgusting no matter WHERE it happens. welcome. I am serious ofcourse. Thanks for suggesting better terminology. Also, you got it terribly wrong if you got the impression that I meant it “part of someone’s culture”. > [@Alessan](#): > > In my experience, public transportation works best when passengers don’t interact at all, either in a negative or a positive manner. A man offering a seat to a woman is acknowledging her existence at a time and in a place were she doesn’t want to be acknowledged. > > And she \*certainly \*doesn’t want to give some guy the impression she owes him somethinng correct. Though the middle aged women over here really like it when someone offers them seat. You can really see it on their faces that they are yearning for a seat. Its common enough so there’s very little feeling of owing something if any. Also, she can always say no. ---
**Author:** ![truthSeeker2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7cd45c/32.png) [@truthSeeker2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthSeeker2)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2013, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiss-tourist-gang-raped-in-india/653154/174 "2013-03-22T01:15:58Z")
@gracer - getting stared at does not equate to sexual harassment in my book, although its an inappropriate thing and should not be done. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2013, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiss-tourist-gang-raped-in-india/653154/175 "2013-03-22T01:48:51Z")
> [@truthSeeker2](#): > > @gracer - getting stared at does not equate to sexual harassment in my book, although its an inappropriate thing and should not be done. Well, the point here is that “your book” isn’t really valid, since you have no lived experience of being and Indian woman, or a woman at all. In case you were curious, under the right circumstances, getting stared at can be harassment. And any kind of unwanted touching is absolutely harassment. As is a fair amount of talking/yelling. If you are interested in learning more about sexism, you should try being quiet and listening to women, particularly the women in your own country. If they don’t or won’t tell you, it’s probably because they assume you aren’t an ally. ---
**Author:** ![truthSeeker2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7cd45c/32.png) [@truthSeeker2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthSeeker2)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2013, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiss-tourist-gang-raped-in-india/653154/176 "2013-03-22T02:11:17Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > Well, the point here is that “your book” isn’t really valid, since you have no lived experience of being and Indian woman, or a woman at all. > > In case you were curious, under the right circumstances, getting stared at can be harassment. And any kind of unwanted touching is absolutely harassment. As is a fair amount of talking/yelling. If you are interested in learning more about sexism, you should try being quiet and listening to women, particularly the women in your own country. If they don’t or won’t tell you, it’s probably because they assume you aren’t an ally. Looks like the point of contention is on sexual harassment happening **routinely and out in open areas** and whether staring should be taken as sexual harassment most the the times. I stand where I stand . I form my views on this subject only based on my observations and on what I hear from the women who actually live in India not based on comments of a couple of female travelers though I respect their views. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2013, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiss-tourist-gang-raped-in-india/653154/177 "2013-03-22T02:33:43Z")
> [@Mississippienne](#): > > Yeah, it’s so unfair to expect a dude not to put his penis in an unwilling vagina. Life is so hard for rapist bandits. Fair doesn’t come into it. What do you think has a better chance of stopping rapes? telling criminals “hey, don’t be raping” or telling women “don’t go camping in India”. ---
**Author:** ![truthSeeker2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7cd45c/32.png) [@truthSeeker2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthSeeker2)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2013, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiss-tourist-gang-raped-in-india/653154/178 "2013-03-22T02:45:20Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Fair doesn’t come into it. What do you think has a better chance of stopping rapes? telling criminals “hey, don’t be raping” or telling women “don’t go camping in India”. “enquire about the area before camping in India” ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2013, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiss-tourist-gang-raped-in-india/653154/179 "2013-03-22T03:01:04Z")
> [@truthSeeker2](#): > > “enquire about the area before camping in India” Sorry dude if i have to research what areas i am least likely to be raped in before going to your country i am probably going to go somewhere else. ---
**Author:** ![truthSeeker2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7cd45c/32.png) [@truthSeeker2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthSeeker2)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2013, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiss-tourist-gang-raped-in-india/653154/180 "2013-03-22T03:16:33Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Sorry dude if i have to research what areas i am least likely to be raped in before going to your country i am probably going to go somewhere else. Not specifically rape, enquire about whether the areas you plan to visit is crime prone or has any official warnings about them. I believe most of the areas you plan on visiting will be fine. But in a country of 1.2billion (4 Americas) which is still developing, there are couple of dangerous areas for the time being… I will be very happy if you come but do not come for now if you are not gonna enquire before going to jungles camping. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiss-tourist-gang-raped-in-india/653154.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/swiss-tourist-gang-raped-in-india/653154.md?page=10)