# Switching the Race of Characters **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 13, 2019, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460 "2019-06-13T02:53:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/281 "2019-06-20T18:53:28Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Urkel begs to differ. So does Maurice Moss. And Carlton Banks. > > Also, Jeffrey Wright has made a \*career \*out of playing a Black nerd. Quite true, and yet multiple posters in this thread can’t seem to get their heads around a black Clark Kent. What do you make of that? ---
**Author:** ![BeagleJesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5daacb/32.png) [@BeagleJesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeagleJesus)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/282 "2019-06-20T20:58:54Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > …changing well established canon for certain iconic characters or for characters where them being a different race would just be weird… This is the point I have been trying to drill down to…in a world of pure imagination and fantasy why does changing the color of a particular character make things weird? I find this particular thought experiment to be quite fascinating because it’s a personal question that I think gives some insight into how folks look at others who are different from them. In my mind, it’s all just make believe and the only thing that’s changed is the color crayon used to fill in the outlines so things never get weird. When others get angry and defensive over the color of fucking comic book character one can’t help but wonder why. I’m sorry you feel the debate is dishonest but I’m pretty sure no one thinks you’re a white supremacist. At least I don’t if that means anything to you ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/283 "2019-06-20T22:11:06Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > There’s a part of me that thinks the solution is to just keep on creating new superhero characters, and make sure that the new ones are demographically balanced (or maybe a bit biased towards previously-underrepresented groups), and let the problem solve itself as the older (biased) heroes become a smaller and less significant proportion of the total. But on the other hand, it’d take a really long time for Superman to lose his place as the most prominent superhero-- Probably not until the genre goes through another one of its shifts and we’re not calling them “superheroes” any more. I dunno. How is Superman doing these day popularity wise? I loved the Christopher Reeve movies, but I haven’t wanted to see another Superman or Batman movie for a couple of decades. I’m not saying I’m an accurate barometer, but if I can brush Superman away, it doesn’t seem impossible he could drift off into obscurity. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/284 "2019-06-20T23:18:38Z")
In the case of superheros, there’s nothing that inherently makes them one race or another. Of course you can have a black Superman / Clark Kent. The far more interesting and difficult question, that could make for an amazingly interesting story would be what you do about the “in world” reality. Superman has been traditionally apolitical with no overt signs of racism. What would you do about a black Clark Kent in the South of the 60s? Do you play it colourblind and ignore the 60s attitudes? Or do you build part of the story around how Clark deals with racism? Equally interesting could be a Superman story set in an America at the height of slavery. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/285 "2019-06-20T23:25:41Z")
As a separate issue - what do you do about historical fiction, period drama and dramatisations? In a movie about the moon landing could Buzz be played by any other race than white? What would it do to the story (if anything?). Is the actual story line more important that the social reality of the time? How about in a movie about JFK - would the makeup of the Secret Service detail need to reflect the reality of the time? If it doesn’t is it a white washing of history or is it good because of more opportunities? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/286 "2019-06-20T23:32:10Z")
[Traditionally Superman hasn’t been apolitical. He defeated the KKK](http://mentalfloss.com/article/23157/how-superman-defeated-ku-klux-klan). So a black Superman actually makes more “sense” than a white one, if we want to apply logic and reason to a superhero. Your average corn-fed white guy of the 1930s (when Superman was created) was passively racist if not actively so. He sure as hell wouldn’t have cared about defeating the KKK. The KKK wouldn’t have been on his radar all that much. But a racial or ethnic minority Superman would have certainly cared. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/287 "2019-06-20T23:37:51Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > [Traditionally Superman hasn’t been apolitical. He defeated the KKK](http://mentalfloss.com/article/23157/how-superman-defeated-ku-klux-klan). He also beat up [greedy bankers](http://images.sequart.org/images/p4.jpg) and [abusive husbands](http://images.sequart.org/images/Action-comics-violence.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/288 "2019-06-20T23:43:58Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Sentence, or paragraph? Paragraph, sorry. > [@](#): > > This is kind of a long way of saying, “I’m not racist, but…” I don’t think anyone is especially interested in whether you (or I?) consider yourself (myself!) racist. The interesting discussion is whether opposition to this sort of change is rooted in bias, and/or perpetuates structural racism. I’m really working hard to not take this to the pit. Honestly, you have to stretch pretty fucking hard to see anything of the kind in my comment. I didn’t even make any assertions or offer any opinions on the topic of race in that post, I simply characterized the circle jerk as I see it. It seems more likely that you’ve already decided that anyone who stands counter your position is inherently racist irregardless of what’s said. > [@](#): > > FWIW I don’t think you’re a white supremacist. But I do think you’re ignoring the way that white supremacy has shaped our culture, including comics culture, and you’re discounting the ways in which diversifying character backgrounds can work to mitigate the effects of white supremacy. In no way shape or form have I done that. If you think I have, please quote it. I’ve never denied any of our fucked up history on this. The furthest I’ve gone is saying that changing the race of certain characters is probably going to be unpopular with the masses. I’ve said (along with several other people) over and over there’s nothing inherently wrong with it…just that it won’t sell. Miles Morales worked because it’s an alternate reality where someone other than Peter Parker becomes Spider-man. It’s great, I loved every second of it. If they’d have instead recast the Earth 616 Peter Parker as a black kid instead of picking Tom Holland, that franchise would be in quite a different place critically and economically. Place any value judgement you want on that prediction. As a side note, they could have cast Eddie Brock in Venom with a black actor instead of Tom Hardy and it probably would have been just fine. Eddie Brock simply doesn’t have the cultural inertia that Peter Parker has. I’m making no blanket statements on right or wrong here…just saying what I think will and won’t sell. If you think that’s some veiled white supremacist rhetoric then I don’t know what to tell you… > [@Acsenray](#): > > No one has made a convincing case for this proposition. And no one has concisely defines exactly what “bad idea” might actually mean. Your camp has made it abundantly clear that no rationale or reason will ever be “convincing”. Such an argument has been characterized both as encoded racism and as some bizarre redefinition of what “art” is. > [@](#): > > Is it bad because it somehow violates some level of artistic quality? I think it’s apparent that this isn’t true. A piece might be of high quality or low quality with or without such a change. You don’t know until you see the finished work. > > Is it bad because it guarantees commercial failure? I think we can all see that That is unlikely, and that such claims are suspect from the start anyway. Just like with artistic success or failure, things fail commercially for a lot of reasons. It seems absurd in this day and age to maintain that the race of an actor is guaranteed to have any particular effect. There are examples where it worked with niche/secondary characters. There are examples where it didn’t work. It’s never really been attempted with someone iconic. You can call that racism, I call that risk aversion. If the only thing you’ll accept as hard evidence is when a iconic character is race swapped in a big-budget film and that film goes on to crater financially and critically and the root cause is inarguably due to the audience rejecting the race of the character then I guess we’re wasting our time here. > [@BeagleJesus](#): > > This is the point I have been trying to drill down to…in a world of pure imagination and fantasy why does changing the color of a particular character make things weird? > > **I find this particular thought experiment to be quite fascinating because it’s a personal question that I think gives some insight into how folks look at others who are different from them.** In my mind, it’s all just make believe and the only thing that’s changed is the color crayon used to fill in the outlines so things never get weird. When others get angry and defensive over the color of fucking comic book character one can’t help but wonder why. > > I’m sorry you feel the debate is dishonest but I’m pretty sure no one thinks you’re a white supremacist. At least I don’t if that means anything to you Emphasis mine. I really don’t think it does that, at all. I think that’s projection. Yes it’s all make believe. But a story is a complex thing. Adaptations of a beloved work need to accomplish a lot of things to appeal to and be satisfying for fans. There’s a point where too much adaption crosses over into essentially creating a whole new thing out of whole cloth and slapping a familiar label on it. I doubt fans of The Lawnmower Man, I, Robot or Dune books were really fulfilled by those movie adaptations, in part because the have virtually nothing in common. Now maybe you don’t give a shit about appealing to fans of the source material, and in some cases that’s probably a totally valid strategy. I, Robot made money after all. But it’s arrogant to say that none of it matters and that everything can be changed without consequence. It’s downright insulting to point the finger at the audience when they reject a unwelcome change by saying “they didn’t get it” or “they’re just too hung up on race”. Hollywood is very welcome to test the theory. Frankly, you and I would probably both be pleasantly surprised if a black Superman was a huge hit with mass appeal. I think they’d have to change _a lot_ to make it coherent. I also think it’s a long shot and I think their time would be better spent creating something inclusive and new instead of recycling something. Finally, I emphatically disagree with the argument that I’m just too “white” to see the forest for the trees here. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/289 "2019-06-20T23:51:00Z")
Missed the edit window. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > **This is kind of a long way of saying, “I’m not racist, but…”** I don’t think anyone is especially interested in whether you (or I?) consider yourself (myself!) racist. The interesting discussion is whether opposition to this sort of change is rooted in bias, and/or perpetuates structural racism. > > FWIW\*\* I don’t think you’re a white supremacist. But\*\* I do think you’re ignoring the way that white supremacy has shaped our culture, including comics culture, and you’re discounting the ways in which diversifying character backgrounds can work to mitigate the effects of white supremacy. Emphasis mine. Amazing that you did that un-ironically. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/290 "2019-06-21T00:07:46Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Missed the edit window. > > Emphasis mine. > > Amazing that you did that un-ironically. Not that amazing, since there’s no actual irony there. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/291 "2019-06-21T00:18:00Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > I’m really working hard to not take this to the pit. We all appreciate your hard work. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/292 "2019-06-21T00:43:32Z")
Someone better warm up some tendies for Omni… ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/293 "2019-06-21T00:55:37Z")
Sure, recent Superman movies haven’t been too great. But the character is iconic in a way that transcends individual movies or comic books or whatever. He’s, to some extent, the model that all other superheroes are based upon. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/294 "2019-06-21T00:56:52Z")
[Moderating] **Chingon** , I’m not quite sure what “warm up some tendies” means. But it sounds like you’re personalizing this. Don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Sensitive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/58956e/32.png) [@Darth\_Sensitive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Sensitive)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/295 "2019-06-21T06:38:07Z")
I think the question of “What does a black Superman think about 'truth, justice, and the American way?” is a really interesting question in just about any permutation you give it. Period piece, black Superman, black Kents, set in an [all black farming community version of Smallville](http://plainshumanities.unl.edu/encyclopedia/doc/egp.afam.006) Same but in a sundown town, or a mixed town Period piece, black Superman, white Kents, in a mixed or sundown town Modern piece, black Superman, black Kents Modern piece, black Superman, white Kents Modern piece, black Superman, interracial Kents All eight of those permutations give you a different outlook for Clark Kent when he moves to Metropolis to get a newspaper job. I’m not wholly sure what the differences are, but there are tons of possibilities. I’d read those Elseworlds, or watch that movie. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/296 "2019-06-21T08:34:04Z")
If you want a black Superman, he could always just hop into his [Blackanizer machine](https://afropunk.com/2011/03/lois-lane-attempts-being-black-for-a-day/). ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/297 "2019-06-21T08:50:01Z")
> [@DarrynJohnston](#): > > How about in a movie about JFK - would the makeup of the Secret Service detail need to reflect the reality of the time? If it doesn’t is it a white washing of history or is it good because of more opportunities? Do we know what the make-up of the Secret Service was at that time? Some years back I saw a TV episode that featured, among many other things, President Richard Nixon. There was some pearl-clutching because one of the Secret Service men depicted was black. Turns out… there actually WAS a black agent on Nixon’s detail. Turns out real history isn’t as white as we have been lead to believe. Adding a black agent wasn’t “more opportunities”, it was reflecting reality. (Which actually, for that show, is pretty strange on certain level what with the aliens and the time travel and such. And folks got upset over a black guy?) ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/298 "2019-06-21T11:14:37Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > The problem isn’t a white identity problem, it’s that changing well established canon for certain iconic characters or for characters where them being a different race would just be weird or anachronistic Weird isn’t bad. Sherlock Holmes is a White English Dude from the 1890’s. His buddy Watson is a White English Dude from the 1890’s. I just started watching a Sherlock show based in present day Japan where Sherlock is a Japanese Lady and Wato-San is her female sidekick. It’s a hoot. People need to just lighten up a bit and go with the flow. While there are times when a character needs to follow type, the world of fiction is a wild and wonderful place where just about anything can happen, we shouldn’t handcuff our artists because of the choices other artists made decades ago. ---
**Author:** ![BeagleJesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5daacb/32.png) [@BeagleJesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeagleJesus)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/299 "2019-06-21T11:29:17Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > I really don’t think it does that, at all. I think that’s projection. Yes it’s all make believe. But a story is a complex thing. Adaptations of a beloved work need to accomplish a lot of things to appeal to and be satisfying for fans. There’s a point where too much adaption crosses over into essentially creating a whole new thing out of whole cloth and slapping a familiar label on it. I doubt fans of The Lawnmower Man, I, Robot or Dune books were really fulfilled by those movie adaptations, in part because the have virtually nothing in common. > > Now maybe you don’t give a shit about appealing to fans of the source material, and in some cases that’s probably a totally valid strategy. I, Robot made money after all. But it’s arrogant to say that none of it matters and that everything can be changed without consequence. It’s downright insulting to point the finger at the audience when they reject a unwelcome change by saying “they didn’t get it” or “they’re just too hung up on race”. > > Hollywood is very welcome to test the theory. Frankly, you and I would probably both be pleasantly surprised if a black Superman was a huge hit with mass appeal. I think they’d have to change _a lot_ to make it coherent. I also think it’s a long shot and I think their time would be better spent creating something inclusive and new instead of recycling something. Finally, I emphatically disagree with the argument that I’m just too “white” to see the forest for the trees here. Growing up as a black kid who loved all the nerdy shit it was pretty rare to find any characters who looked like me. So did I just sit around and be content to always be Constable Reggie? Fuck no, I was Inspector SpaceTime goddammit! If I wanted to pretend to be Superman I didn’t feel the need to pretend I was a white guy just to fill the role. I was just Superman and the story kept moving along the way it always moved. It never occurred to me that the story needed to change just because I didn’t look like Christopher Reeve. I guess I just always figured people were more than what they look like. So when folks tell me that Superman can’t be black without all types of caveats, exceptions and alterations it becomes painfully obvious that something else must be going on. It feels like we can’t even be equal in your imagination, like we must be different by definition else it taints and perverts your view to the point where you can no longer stay in the story. That appearance trumps content instead of vice versa. I don’t think I’m projecting. I think I’m making a reasonable conclusion based on the evidence provided. I can imagine this, you can’t. Simple as that. This is make believe, but in your world view I can’t even pretend to be like you. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/300 "2019-06-21T11:44:29Z")
> [@BeagleJesus](#): > > So when folks tell me that Superman can’t be black without all types of caveats, exceptions and alterations it becomes painfully obvious that something else must be going on. It feels like we can’t even be equal in your imagination, like we must be different by definition else it taints and perverts your view to the point where you can no longer stay in the story. That appearance trumps content instead of vice versa. > > I don’t think I’m projecting. I think I’m making a reasonable conclusion based on the evidence provided. I can imagine this, you can’t. Simple as that. This is make believe, but in your world view I can’t even pretend to be like you. I get what you’re saying. I wonder, though, about how much you read books for societal dynamics (“none” is a fine answer). Obviously Metropolis isn’t a real-world place. But it draws really heavily on the real world. When I watch a Superman movie, I expect a switch on the wall to toggle the lights (not to change the radio station), I expect coffee to be something that grownups drink in the morning (not something they put in lawn mowers), I expect coworkers to greet each other with “Good Morning” (not, “I love you snookums”). The changes that the authors make to society are deliberate and usually obvious, and if the authors don’t illustrate that change in some way, I expect the change not to be there. I expect Metropolis, as a fictional American city, to be grappling with some of the same issues we focus with in our America. They grapple with crime, with wealth inequality, with sexism, with racism. If they don’t, the artist probably ought to illustrate that change in some way. (They can also go the Hamilton route, where the change ostentatiously happens with no in-narrative explanation, and that’s cool too–but there it’s a deliberate choice). I’m all about the idea of a black Superman. That’d be awesome. But when you talk about telling this story where his skin is black and nothing else changes, I’m not sure what you mean: do you mean that Metropolis remains a fantasy American city, and has the same problems as real American cities? if so, wouldn’t Superman face racial discrimination? Or do you mean that Superman doesn’t face racial discrimination? If so, isn’t that a change to the city itself? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460.md?page=16)