# Switching the Race of Characters **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 13, 2019, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460 "2019-06-13T02:53:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Miss\_Mapp](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miss_mapp/32/369_2.png) [@Miss\_Mapp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miss_Mapp)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/301 "2019-06-21T12:14:07Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Do we know what the make-up of the Secret Service was at that time? > > Some years back I saw a TV episode that featured, among many other things, President Richard Nixon. There was some pearl-clutching because one of the Secret Service men depicted was black. Turns out… there actually WAS a black agent on Nixon’s detail. Turns out real history isn’t as white as we have been lead to believe. Adding a black agent wasn’t “more opportunities”, it was reflecting reality. > > (Which actually, for that show, is pretty strange on certain level what with the aliens and the time travel and such. And folks got upset over a black guy?) This was that Dr. Who episode about the Moon landing? One of the things I like about casting crowds and historical characters in the 21st-century Dr. Who is their dispelling the notion that everybody in the past - apart from slaves - was always white. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/302 "2019-06-21T13:19:53Z")
> [@BeagleJesus](#): > > Growing up as a black kid who loved all the nerdy shit it was pretty rare to find any characters who looked like me. So did I just sit around and be content to always be Constable Reggie? Fuck no, I was Inspector SpaceTime goddammit! If I wanted to pretend to be Superman I didn’t feel the need to pretend I was a white guy just to fill the role. I was just Superman and the story kept moving along the way it always moved. It never occurred to me that the story needed to change just because I didn’t look like Christopher Reeve. I guess I just always figured people were more than what they look like. > > So when folks tell me that Superman can’t be black without all types of caveats, exceptions and alterations it becomes painfully obvious that something else must be going on. It feels like we can’t even be equal in your imagination, like we must be different by definition else it taints and perverts your view to the point where you can no longer stay in the story. That appearance trumps content instead of vice versa. > > I don’t think I’m projecting. I think I’m making a reasonable conclusion based on the evidence provided. I can imagine this, you can’t. Simple as that. This is make believe, but in your world view I can’t even pretend to be like you. The last thread devoted to blackface we had here on the SDMB made me realize that a lot of white people have terrible imaginations. Way too many think that if you cosplay as a fictional character or a celebrity, you must simulate their skin color for you to be fully recognizable. So it isn’t enough for you to dress up like David Bowie, red mullet wig and platform boots and all. If you aren’t white, you also have to whiten your face and thus look like a damn buffoon…making it so that the white guy dressed like David Bowie will always have a better cosplay than yours since he won’t be required to look like a damn buffoon. This failure of the imagination explains why white people are so prone to dressing up in blackface to pay homage to, say, Michael Jackson. They don’t see MJ as a guy in a red leather jacket, high water black pants, and one sequin glove. No, he’s a black guy first in their mind. If you don’t capture that detail in your costume, you might as well not even bother! And meanwhile black people are the ones who get accused of fixating on race all the time. Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/303 "2019-06-21T13:33:04Z")
I could totally imagine a filmmaker deciding to make a black Superman movie just because he likes a particular actor who happens to be black. In such a situation, to tell the tale without complicating it too much, all that would be necessary is to make the entire cast multiracial. And viola, race ceases to matter. Just like race had zilch to do with The Matrix despite much of the cast being non-white. It would be easy to put a fresh new spin on the franchise without necessitating any changes to the canon. If such a movie gets made, I’d be more inclined to see it than one more Superman starring a brunette white man trying to be Christoper Reeve and falling short. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/304 "2019-06-21T15:27:15Z")
**monstro** , if you’re cosplaying David Bowie, does the mullet wig have to be red? Could a guy with jet-black hair just style his own hair into a mullet? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/305 "2019-06-21T16:17:43Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > **monstro** , if you’re cosplaying David Bowie, does the mullet wig have to be red? Could a guy with jet-black hair just style his own hair into a mullet? Not that you asked me, but a black mullet conjures up Steve Perry. Old school Bowie distinguished himself by having a _red_ mullet. Not just any colored mullet. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/306 "2019-06-21T16:19:13Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > **monstro** , if you’re cosplaying David Bowie, does the mullet wig have to be red? Could a guy with jet-black hair just style his own hair into a mullet? Of course. Why not? He may not be instantly recognizable as David Bowie that way, but being instantly recognizable isn’t the point of cosplay for lots of people. Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanub/32/132_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUB)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/307 "2019-06-21T16:43:33Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Of course. Why not? He may not be instantly recognizable as David Bowie that way, \*\*but being instantly recognizable isn’t the point of cosplay for lots of people. > \*\* > Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk I’m trying to stay out of this and just read and learn, and by golly, I did not know this. Never having participated, I always figured folks took pride in being as accurate and recognizable as possible. I guess that’s what mitigated (_in my mind_) people making what turned out to be unfortunate / racially insensitive choices. You do drop the wisdom on me, **monstro** 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/308 "2019-06-21T17:15:49Z")
> [@WOOKINPANUB](#): > > I’m trying to stay out of this and just read and learn, and by golly, I did not know this. Never having participated, I always figured folks took pride in being as accurate and recognizable as possible. I guess that’s what mitigated (_in my mind_) people making what turned out to be unfortunate / racially insensitive choices. You do drop the wisdom on me, **monstro** 🙂 You are welcome. I don’t cosplay and I am not an expert in cosplay. But I understand the motivations behind cosplay. I am sure many folks do wish to be instantly recognized as whomever they are cosplaying, but they only care about being instantly recognizable by fellow fangirls and boys. Not randos. Cuz chances are they aren’t going to be instantly recognizable to randos who don’t know what signatures to look out for. A guy with a jet black mullet could still be recognizable as DB as long he presents with all the other classic signatures. Maybe instead of spending money on a wig, he buys a fake guitar that looks just like the Ziggy Stardust guitar. Boom, now he looks enough like David Bowie to be recognizable by someone. Mission accomplished. Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/309 "2019-06-21T18:37:05Z")
I would have thought that the goal would be to be recognizable to anyone familiar with the person being played. If recognition is difficult, it would only be because the character is obscure to most folks. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/310 "2019-06-21T19:06:37Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I would have thought that the goal would be to be recognizable to anyone familiar with the person being played. If recognition is difficult, it would only be because the character is obscure to most folks. I dunno. I have seen cosplays that I didn’t instantly recognize, but I wouldn’t consider that a failure of the cosplayer since I am cursed with a rather concrete mind. So someone who is creative enough can easily stump me, even if they stay 100% true to the character they are trying to represent. I once saw a photo of a white guy dressed like Lisa “Left Eye” Lopez. If the photo hadn’t been captioned, I would not have guessed that was who he was trying to portray. But he was dead-on in his cosplay. He had the silken pajamas from the “Creep” video, her hairstyle, and the signature left eye mark. He was even posing like Lisa would have. It was a wonderful costume. So it would be unfair for me to judge his cosplay negatively just because my mind wasn’t open enough at first glimpse. Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/311 "2019-06-21T20:17:52Z")
> [@Miss\_Mapp](#): > > This was that Dr. Who episode about the Moon landing? Yep. > [@](#): > > One of the things I like about casting crowds and historical characters in the 21st-century Dr. Who is their dispelling the notion that everybody in the past - apart from slaves - was always white. I’m enjoying it, too. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/312 "2019-06-21T20:39:48Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I dunno. I have seen cosplays that I didn’t instantly recognize, but I wouldn’t consider that a failure of the cosplayer since I am cursed with a rather concrete mind. So someone who is creative enough can easily stump me, even if they stay 100% true to the character they are trying to represent. > > I once saw a photo of a white guy dressed like Lisa “Left Eye” Lopez. If the photo hadn’t been captioned, I would not have guessed that was who he was trying to portray. But he was dead-on in his cosplay. He had the silken pajamas from the “Creep” video, her hairstyle, and the signature left eye mark. He was even posing like Lisa would have. It was a wonderful costume. So it would be unfair for me to judge his cosplay negatively just because my mind wasn’t open enough at first glimpse. I think I brought up this point in the other thread, but there is a difference between serious cosplay and joke cosplay. If you are trying to be funny, then you can cosplay as someone you look nothing like. But if you are serious about it, you try to be as accurate as possible. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/313 "2019-06-21T20:49:45Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Do we know what the make-up of the Secret Service was at that time? > > Some years back I saw a TV episode that featured, among many other things, President Richard Nixon. There was some pearl-clutching because one of the Secret Service men depicted was black. Turns out… there actually WAS a black agent on Nixon’s detail. Turns out real history isn’t as white as we have been lead to believe. Adding a black agent wasn’t “more opportunities”, it was reflecting reality. > > (Which actually, for that show, is pretty strange on certain level what with the aliens and the time travel and such. And folks got upset over a black guy?) The first black Secret Service agent on the presidential protective detail was [Abraham Bolden](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Bolden), who was assigned to the detail in 1961 by President Kennedy. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/314 "2019-06-21T21:05:58Z")
> [@WOOKINPANUB](#): > > I’m trying to stay out of this and just read and learn, and by golly, I did not know this. Never having participated, I always figured folks took pride in being as accurate and recognizable as possible. I guess that’s what mitigated (_in my mind_) people making what turned out to be unfortunate / racially insensitive choices. You do drop the wisdom on me, **monstro** 🙂 I wouldn’t take that as gospel. Saying the hair color matters but the skin color doesn’t is a pretty tough limb to stand on. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/315 "2019-06-21T21:14:22Z")
> [@BeagleJesus](#): > > Growing up as a black kid who loved all the nerdy shit it was pretty rare to find any characters who looked like me. So did I just sit around and be content to always be Constable Reggie? Fuck no, I was Inspector SpaceTime goddammit! If I wanted to pretend to be Superman I didn’t feel the need to pretend I was a white guy just to fill the role. I was just Superman and the story kept moving along the way it always moved. It never occurred to me that the story needed to change just because I didn’t look like Christopher Reeve. I guess I just always figured people were more than what they look like. I would ask you to acknowledge that a kid running around fantasizing about something is not the same thing as telling a complete story. **Left Hand of Dorkness** explains this well. When it comes to fantasy world building, though not really limited to fantasy, the viewer can assume that the world being presented mirrors the real world except for in the ways that the story explicitly identifies as different. If something unexpected happens you’re supposed to explain why, that basically the whole point. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/316 "2019-06-21T21:37:10Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > I wouldn’t take that as gospel. Saying the hair color matters but the skin color doesn’t is a pretty tough limb to stand on. How so? A hair style is a representation of someone’s personality, since it is an aesthetic choice they’ve deliberately made. Barring Lil Kim and Sammy Sousa, no one deliberately chooses their skin color. So skin color does not represent someone’s essence the way that their hair does. If you have to see white skin to believe someone with a big pompadour, sparkly white jump suit, and swiveling hips has captured Elvis’s essence, then something is wrong with your imagination and yeah, you might just be a little overly fixated on race. David Bowie is one of my favorite musicians. I would consider it very disrespectul if I were to pay homage to him by lightening my skin. The guy transcended his whiteness. He would have likely hated the idea of a black woman feeling like she had to change her skin tone to “be” him. Just a WAG, but I think just about everyone wants to be remembered more for their style than superficial shit they had no control over. But David Bowie especially. I don’t see this as a tough limb to stand on at all. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/317 "2019-06-21T21:47:37Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I would consider it very disrespectul if I were to pay homage to him by lightening my skin. You donning white face would be disrespectful to David Bowie? Gimme a fucking break. Do I have a problem with a black Elvis impersonator, of course not. Would have I an issue with someone casting Don Cheadle to play Elvis in a biopic? Yeah, that would be pretty silly…suppose I’m just racist then. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/318 "2019-06-21T22:53:03Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > I think I brought up this point in the other thread, but there is a difference between serious cosplay and joke cosplay. If you are trying to be funny, then you can cosplay as someone you look nothing like. But if you are serious about it, you try to be as accurate as possible. Do you think most cosplayers are doing it to be"serious"? Or do you think it is possble the vast majority are just having fun and are not at all interested in impressing randos who are too chicken or uncreative to do their own cosplay? Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/319 "2019-06-21T23:03:18Z")
[quote=“Omniscient, post:317, topic:835460”] You donning white face would be disrespectful to David Bowie? Gimme a fucking break. \*\* No, you give ME a fucking break. If you want to slather on face paint to pay homage to an icon who transended color, go right ahead. But my feelings about what I consider a respectful homage aren’t debatable. They just are. > [@](#): > > Do I have a problem with a black Elvis impersonator, of course not. Would have I an issue with someone casting Don Cheadle to play Elvis in a biopic? Yeah, that would be pretty silly…suppose I’m just racist then. :rolleyes: How come you haven’t yet noticed that no one is disagreeing with you on this rather facile point? 99% of the conversation has been centered on superheros. You know, fictional characters who live in the land of crazy make-believe. Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2019, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/320 "2019-06-21T23:30:25Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > I wouldn’t take that as gospel. Saying the hair color matters but the skin color doesn’t is a pretty tough limb to stand on. Can a fat person cosplay as a skinny character and still do justice to their rendering? Or should they only stick with tubby characters? Can an unattractive person cosplay as a handsome/pretty character? Or should they limit themselves to the homely? Switching gears a bit, what is your thought on musical covers? If an artist wants to cover someone else’s songs, are they obligated to do it just like the original? Same instruments, same genre, same style of singing, etc? Is it somehow wrong or offensive when an artist puts his/her interpretation on the song, to such an extent that you can’t even tell it came from the original artist? What significance, if any, does race figure into whether you can appreciate a cover song? This morning I was listening Maxwell’s cover of Nine Inch Nail’s Closer. First time hearing it, and I found it marvelous. Took me a minute to peg it, though, because [Maxwell sings it like a gospel song](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3ufQxUdrWPs)(which makes the line “you bring me closer to God” quite fitting). He put his own interpretation on an already great song and made it even better. What a sad world this would be if artists decided they couldn’t create in this way. “Only people in race X can sing that song”, says no musician ever. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460.md?page=17)