# Switching the Race of Characters **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 13, 2019, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460 "2019-06-13T02:53:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Guest-starring\_Id](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guest-starring_id/32/21736_2.png) [@Guest-starring\_Id](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guest-starring_Id)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2019, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/381 "2019-06-23T18:03:11Z")
A little blackface on Ann B. Davis never hurt. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2019, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/382 "2019-06-23T18:25:09Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I think this pic perfectly illustrates that you can only go so far off-model before the character becomes essentially unrecognizable. > > Goddammit, **Superman wears his underwear on the outside.** > > This cosplay is a travesty. A black man, walking around with his underwear visible? Very problematic, dude. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2019, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/383 "2019-06-23T20:35:22Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > In retrospect, yes, a PM would have been better. Please accept my apology. I appreciate this very much, and I accept your apology. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2019, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/384 "2019-06-23T22:30:02Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And if you were to make a movie (or TV episode, or whatever) of this story, would it make sense to cast a white actor as the new piper? Would it make sense to cast black actors as any of the existing band members? > > Race is important because historically, people have viewed it as important, and that’s shaped our society. And so if you want to depict that society, you have to at least sometimes keep the skin colors accurate. > [@Telemark](#): > > The key is to understand when it’s important and when it’s not. I’m sure that well meaning people feel differently about whether it’s important for any particular story or character. It’s important here to seriously examine what “important” means in any particular situation. In any fantasy setting, it’s completely up to the creators to decide how important—if at all—race is. Even in so-called “realistic” situations, the vast majority of the time, race is only important when the story itself treats it as important. For the most part, race is “important” only if race plays a direct role in the story. For the most part, the dominant culture in America treats race as important far more often than it actually has to be. Another thing to remember is that even for historical stories, if you go back half-a-millennium or so, the “realistic” concept of race was not equivalent to our modern conception of race. Most importantly, the very idea that something called “white people” exists as an identifiable group is a relatively modern invention. And our modern conception of races begins with the invention of the concept of white people. Even now, racial issues turn on the question of who is white and who isn’t. It’s less important what the non-white races are, or even how many of them there are. So, for any story set before modern (meaning post-Enlightenment) times, it probably is not even important to try to choose actors based on what skin color we think any particular historical person was. And go back a few centuries before that, and you’re in a time when we can’t really be sure what the exact skin color of almost any historical person was. So, frankly, it doesn’t matter in any important sense what the skin color is of an actor portraying any historical or quasi-historical figure from say, Arthurian stories, or Norse mythology, or the Roman Empire, or Ancient Greece, or Ancient Egypt, or Ancient Persia. The fact that we have a majoritarian culture that would have trouble getting their minds around this fact is the result of being steeped in a white-supremacist society. > [@Miller](#): > > Goddammit, **Superman wears his underwear on the outside.** > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > A black man, walking around with his underwear visible? I know this is a popular joke. But just in case anyone thinks this is actually true, I always feel obligated to find out that Superman’s costume is based on the circus performer’s shorts over a union suit, not underpants. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2019, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/385 "2019-06-23T23:28:49Z")
I agree with **Acsenray** and **monstro** , et al. I, for one would be just fine with a black Superman without any other changes. I would be fine with a white actor playing the Blackkklansman, in fact I think it would highlight the ridiculousness of racism. I would be fine with a woman playing Bill Clinton. I would be fine with Jason Momoa playing Herve Villachaize or Peter Dinklage playing Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. It’s. A. Movie! Nobody seemed to mind when James Bond was changed from English to Scot to American back to English agin and then one more American, but God forbid he be Idris Elba (at least he’s British!) And I think anyone arguing against this are intolerant, ignorant, unimaginative, busybody, control freak crybabies! Especially those arguing for historicity. Besides the points that **Acsenray** makes, “historically accurate” movies routinely change the race and sex of minor characters ALL THE TIME. And it doesn’t seem to affect anyone’s enjoyment. Characters are combined and deleted, stories are compressed and elided, dialogue is moved from one mouth to another or made up all together. It’s. A. Movie! It’s not court testimony. mc ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2019, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/386 "2019-06-23T23:42:48Z")
Sorry, The two “American” Bonds were in fact British. But I forgot the Australian. mc ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2019, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/387 "2019-06-24T01:51:17Z")
For the record, Barry Allen and Saturn Girl are supposed to be blond. And I don’t care if Jimmy Olsen is black but, damn it, he should be wearing a bow tie. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2019, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/388 "2019-06-24T03:09:30Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > But it’s ART! What point do you imagine you’re making here? The word “art” seems to have thrown you into some tropical vortex of bewildered outrag. ---
**Author:** ![Trafalgar\_Laura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trafalgar_laura/32/2907_2.png) [@Trafalgar\_Laura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trafalgar_Laura)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2019, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/389 "2019-06-24T05:56:27Z")
Any racism based in human society (especially the USA’s unique focus on it) also doesn’t seem relevant to the potential backstory of alien characters… several of which have been given as examples of ‘problematic’ racial changes already. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2019, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/390 "2019-06-24T11:20:48Z")
> [@Trafalgar\_Laura](#): > > Any racism based in human society (especially the USA’s unique focus on it) also doesn’t seem relevant to the potential backstory of alien characters… several of which have been given as examples of ‘problematic’ racial changes already. > [@Acsenray](#): > > For the most part, the dominant culture in America treats race as important far more often than it actually has to be. That–American racism–is what I think needs to be considered more than race. If you set a Superman story in 1940, and Superman is black, you’ll either make the additional change of making 1940 America not super-racist, or make the additional change of having Superman have to deal with being the object of racist behaviors. Either change can make for a good story. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2019, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/391 "2019-06-24T12:55:29Z")
In fantasy books, one generally still sees racism, and hence race being important, but it’s usually not the same racism as in our world. As Terry Pratchett put it, black and white live in harmony, and gang up on green. And in fact, his works are full of dwarves and trolls (and goblins and gnolls and golems and vampires and werewolves and orcs) fighting against racism, but human skin color is very seldom mentioned at all (I think there’s a mention somewhere that most of the people in the area most of the stories take place in are white, but it’s no big deal when someone shows up who’s not). ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/392 "2019-06-25T07:59:48Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Quite true, and yet multiple posters in this thread can’t seem to get their heads around a black Clark Kent. What do you make of that? Failure of imagination, a lack of diverse life experiences and tunnel vision are all common? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/393 "2019-06-25T08:06:49Z")
… ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/394 "2019-06-25T08:09:19Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > In fantasy books, one generally still sees racism, and hence race being important, but it’s usually not the same racism as in our world. As Terry Pratchett put it, black and white live in harmony, and gang up on green. And in fact, his works are full of dwarves and trolls (and goblins and gnolls and golems and vampires and werewolves and orcs) fighting against racism, but human skin color is very seldom mentioned at all (I think there’s a mention somewhere that most of the people in the area most of the stories take place in are white, but it’s no big deal when someone shows up who’s not). That’s not entirely true - his book “Jingo”, about an almost-war with the pseudo-Muslim empire of Klatch, dealt extensively with human-on-human racism (it was against it, in case you were wondering). ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/395 "2019-06-25T13:43:53Z")
I’m not sure if that would be more accurately described as racism or nationalism (can a Morporkian be visually distinguished from a Klatchian at a glance?), but you’re right that it’s definitely some flavor of human-on-human bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/396 "2019-06-25T14:25:57Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > can a Morporkian be visually distinguished from a Klatchian at a glance? There’s the whole bit with Nobby innocently pointing out Colon’s illogical racism which seems to indicate the Klatchians are distinguished from Morporkians as being “pretty brown”, which they have in common with some other foreigners like Omnians (Constable Visit is specifically mentioned) ---
**Author:** ![CAH66](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7bcc69/32.png) [@CAH66](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CAH66)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/397 "2019-06-25T16:54:59Z")
For me, it often comes down to how attached I am to the character. I’ve been reading comics for close to five decades (although I confess it’s nowhere near as often these days as it once was.) I’ve known Clark Kent, Bruce Wayne, Ben Grimm, and Peter Parker longer than anyone besides my parents, and I’ve seen more pictures of them for sure 🙂 Comics are a uniquely visual medium, and when these characters are jumping onto the screen, I absolutely want them to be as faithfully represented as they can be, including visually. For me, it absolutely matters what they look like, whether that be race, age, gender, what have you, if it’s a character that I’ve ‘known’ for a long time. There have been plenty of race changes that haven’t mattered much _to me_– Baron Mordo (Dr. Strange), Ghost (Ant-Man and the Wasp), Wally/Iris West (The Flash)-- because they were ‘casual acquaintances’ at most. But at the end of the day when I go see Dr. Strange, I expect him to look like Dr. Strange as much as is possible. Same with Wolverine’s bad haircut, and so on. It’s not that I can’t imagine a black Superman; I honestly don’t want one. I want Superman to be the Superman I grew up with. Likewise, I don’t mind John Stewart as Green Lantern, but I don’t want Hal Jordan to suddenly become black. I really like Miles Morales, but I wouldn’t accept it if they just said “Hey, we’re making Peter Parker bi-racial black/Puerto Rican because diversity.” I get that a lot of people dismiss folks like me as “fanboys” whose concerns don’t matter. But these movies are adaptations and so-called fanboys like me buy movie tickets (often more than once for the same movie). And we buy the movies when they come out. And we buy the collectibles and merchandise based on these movies. We’re the ones who are the first to start paying attention when a movie is just being talked about, and we’re the ones who start the wider conversation out in the media, whether good or bad. There is source material that deserves to be respected, and the farther afield you go from it the more the fans of the original books will be disappointed. I’m not a “toxic fan” sending angry tweets or spewing vitriol all over the internet, but I will vote with my dollars. Case in point is the 2015 Fantastic Four. Josh Trank told his cast not to read FF comics because he was going to do “something different.” He made Ben a little guy (pre-Thing of course), made the Thing look sinister and monstrous, turned Johnny black, made Reed young, turned Dr. Doom into… whatever that was. I’m not at all sure why he didn’t bother changing Sue, since nobody else came through his “artistic vision” resembling themselves. As more press and interviews came out it was plain to see that the characters’ looks were just the tip of the iceberg, and there was only a superficial resemblance to the Fantastic Four I grew up reading in terms of their personalities, relationships, origins, history, etc. Long before the terrible reviews kept piling up there were enough hints about the plot that I had practically no interest in seeing the movie. Then Trank himself turned “practically no interest” into “screw you buddy” by arrogantly painting anyone who didn’t like his changes as nothing more than a bunch of racist trolls. The earlier FF movies, as goofy and flawed as they were, were at least an attempt to bring to screen the Fantastic Four I grew up with. And I saw both of them in the theater. And I own them. 2015 FF is the only superhero movie I can think of in the last couple decades that I still haven’t watched, even though it’s been on Netflix for basically free. Certainly there will always be compromise when translating to film, and I’m not saying they have to be completely accurate in all respects. I loved Tobey Maguire’s Spidey even though they changed his web shooters into a bio-based power because he was an awesome Peter Parker. And sometimes I have to just suck it up and accept, for instance, a young and attractive Marisa Tomei version of Aunt May. (But… why? Just so Tony Stark could hit on her?) Zendaya cast as MJ in Homecoming would have been bad if MJ was actually supposed to be Mary Jane Watson rather than an elaborate bait and switch. MJ’s a good example of increasing cast diversity without actually changing the source material, as opposed to transforming the Howdy Doody-ish Jimmy Olsen into the handsome and formidable James Olsen/Guardian version in CW’s Supergirl. Once the character is taken so far from the source material in looks and persona, why not just acknowledge it by giving him his _own_ identity? For that matter, in Homecoming, why did they practically lift Ganke Lee wholesale from Miles Morales’ comics and then re-name him Ned Leeds, a completely \*different \*character from Spidey’s adult life? Flash Thompson is absolutely awful in that movie though. There’s just enough of the original Flash that I can’t mentally classify him as “completely different character with a familiar name” like I can with MJ and Ned, so he just doesn’t work for me at all. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/398 "2019-06-25T17:02:35Z")
> [@CAH66](#): > > For me, it often comes down to how attached I am to the character. I’ve been reading comics for close to five decades (although I confess it’s nowhere near as often these days as it once was.) I’ve known Clark Kent, Bruce Wayne, Ben Grimm, and Peter Parker longer than anyone besides my parents, and I’ve seen more pictures of them for sure 🙂 Comics are a uniquely visual medium, and when these characters are jumping onto the screen, I absolutely want them to be as faithfully represented as they can be, including visually. For me, it absolutely matters what they look like, whether that be race, age, gender, what have you, if it’s a character that I’ve ‘known’ for a long time. Earlier someone said that white people pay too much attention to race. Here, I think you’re paying too little attention. Sure, the Clarks and Bruces and Peters you grew up with were white. **That’s not a coincidence** : these characters were all created during the Jim Crow era, when black superheroes in mainstream comics were literally nonexistent. They were nonexistent because the country was pretty explicitly racist at the time, and black superheroes had almost no chance of being sold to white audiences. Even if they don’t talk about race in the comics, the artists’ choice for the heroes’ race was informed by racism. So when you talk about wanting these characters to stay faithful to the race they were originally assigned, you’re asking for today’s comics to inherit and perpetuate the racism of the past. I don’t think you’re doing that deliberately. But this is a terrific, albeit tiny, example of how structural racism can perpetuate inequality. > [@CAH66](#): > > Once the character is taken so far from the source material in looks and persona, why not just acknowledge it by giving him his _own_ identity? Because the movies are about money, and established characters are easier to market than new characters. That’s just as true as the fact that the characters were established during a period of profound racism. I appreciate folks who mix it up with these established characters because it helps to undermine the legacy of that past racism. A James Olsen who’s handsome, poised, and black is an absolutely fine character. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/399 "2019-06-25T17:17:03Z")
> [@CAH66](#): > > I really like Miles Morales, but I wouldn’t accept it if they just said “Hey, we’re making Peter Parker bi-racial black/Puerto Rican because diversity.” > […] > Case in point is the 2015 Fantastic Four. Josh Trank told his cast not to read FF comics because he was going to do “something different.” He made Ben a little guy (pre-Thing of course), made the Thing look sinister and monstrous, turned Johnny black, made Reed young, turned Dr. Doom into… whatever that was. I’m not at all sure why he didn’t bother changing Sue, since nobody else came through his “artistic vision” resembling themselves. > […] > The earlier FF movies, as goofy and flawed as they were, were at least an attempt to bring to screen the Fantastic Four I grew up with. And I saw both of them in the theater. And I own them. 2015 FF is the only superhero movie I can think of in the last couple decades that I still haven’t watched, even though it’s been on Netflix for basically free. It’s not like Jessica Alba and Cris Evans looked much like siblings either, though, so I’m not sure how great of an example that is in terms of superficial resemblance to the source material. I don’t remember any complaints about Alba and Evans playing siblings at the time, nor did it even occur to me. All I remember thinking is “Jessica Alba is in it? I’m there!” (Much like I watched the horrendous 2015 one because Kate Mara was in it. It was awful; you haven’t missed anything.) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2019, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/400 "2019-06-25T18:56:23Z")
> [@CAH66](#): > > I get that a lot of people dismiss folks like me as “fanboys” whose concerns don’t matter. But these movies are adaptations and so-called fanboys like me buy movie tickets (often more than once for the same movie). And we buy the movies when they come out. And we buy the collectibles and merchandise based on these movies. We’re the ones who are the first to start paying attention when a movie is just being talked about, and we’re the ones who start the wider conversation out in the media, whether good or bad. Here’s where we get into the issue of a certain segment of the public setting themselves up as an authority unto itself. “Fanboys” are disparaged not because they like something, but because they feel entitled to something. Who appointed them the captains of all the fans? Who appointed them the spokespersons? I’ve mentioned this before, but superhero movies are billion-dollar businesses. These self-appointed spokespeople of the fans are a drop in the bucket from that perspective. Movie studios now have a much bigger audience for comic-book based films and they can be enormously successful based on the purchasing decisions of a whole lot of different kinds of people. That’s actually a good thing. The medium isn’t held hostage by a self-entitled group of people who believe it’s their prerogative to assert their own preferences over all other considerations. > [@](#): > > There is source material that deserves to be respected Here’s where you’re equating casting according to skin-color race as “respect.” It’s an assertion that deserves some introspection. > [@](#): > > , and the farther afield you go from it the more the fans of the original books will be disappointed. I mean, again, be very careful who you purport to speak for. > [@](#): > > I’m not a “toxic fan” sending angry tweets or spewing vitriol all over the internet, but I will vote with my dollars. Sure. We all get to spend money on things we like and decline to spend money on things we do like. But there are actually are bad reasons to dislike things. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460.md?page=21)