# Switching the Race of Characters **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 13, 2019, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460 "2019-06-13T02:53:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2019, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/521 "2019-07-08T00:24:42Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > Surprised? > > In a world where wearing a sombrero or dreadlocks gets you thrown in the pillory? And by “thrown in the pillory” you mean “get a few dirty looks,” right? White fragility is real, dude. I’ll repeat myself: > [@me](#): > > White people who are dimly aware of the idea of cultural appropriation may think they’re going to catch flak for dressing up as a character of another race/ethnicity. If dressing as a stereotype of a generic black person is bad, is it also bad to dress as a specific person who’s black? > > But c’mon, people, think it through. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2019, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/522 "2019-07-08T00:25:33Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > It could be an interesting reading to reverse it, by setting it in one of the mediaeval African kingdoms with Othello played as a white mercenary, or one of the Europeans who rose to significant postiions after being taken into slavery in one of the North African kingdoms. > > It’s not uncommon to do race/gender-reversed productions of Shakespeare, these days. I had an idea once to race-switch Storm from the X-Men (sorta). The gist is that the African Goddess she’s always invoking is more responsible for her powers than we knew. Said Goddess is pissed that Storm has become a world-adventurer rather than concentrating on her people. So the Goddess gives the powers to the person at the time who just happens to be trying the hardest to help the Goddess’s people. And at said time, its a tireless, penniless white male Christian missionary. That story-line alone would keep Slate, Salon, Buzzfeed, HuffPo et al in business for years to come. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2019, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/523 "2019-07-08T00:27:44Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > And by “thrown in the pillory” you mean “get a few dirty looks,” right? > > White fragility is real, dude. > > I’ll repeat myself: Wouldn’t know. I’m not white. Nah, i mean A selection of click-bait outrage pieces, and getting yelled at if you run into the wrong privileged liberal arts major.\* - granted its not really being thrown in a pillory. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2019, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/524 "2019-07-08T00:33:07Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > Wouldn’t know. I’m not white. > > Nah, i mean A selection of click-bait outrage pieces, and getting yelled at if you run into the wrong privileged liberal arts major.\* > > - granted its not really being thrown in a pillory. No, it’s really not. If you dress as a racist stereotype, and people yell at you for dressing as a racist stereotype, I’m not gonna lose too much sleep. On the other hand, if a white kid dressed as [Coco](https://pixar-planet.fr/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/miguel-personnage-coco-10.jpg), I’d be real surprised to see him get much pushback; or if a white dude cosplayed as [Necalli](https://www.listal.com/character/necalli), I’d expect very little pushback. And if somebody yelled at them for it, I’d be a lot likelier to think the yeller was an asshole. It’s the difference between donning a wig or hat to represent a specific character, and donning a wig or hat to represent an ethnic stereotype. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2019, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/525 "2019-07-08T09:45:22Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > (If Chloe had been cast, I wonder how many white tears would have been shed over the fact that a blonde was chosen and not a red head.) Already seen this: a few redheads complaining that - never mind skin color - there aren’t enough **real** redheads being cast in redhead roles. I pointed them at Karen Gillan and told them to wait for the live-action version of Brave. > [@Corry\_El](#): > > Lot’s of focus on Superman. 🙂 I think a highly imaginative rethinking of that story could work with a non-white Superman. However if it just portrayed the same basic story where race didn’t matter, Superman’s race didn’t matter, I think such a production could also come under criticism for taking that tack, even from a ‘woke’ POV. Whereas, it’s not straightforward to weave a struggle against racism into the story. But, for anyone now to produce a new ‘Superman’ that isn’t trite, they’d probably have to do something pretty different. A story of non-white Superman, in a world where it mattered than he wasn’t white, might be that new thing. I’ve been thinking about that. Lots of insecure white people are losing their shit over a fictional half-human being played by a black actress. Imagine if there was a real Superman, with all the powers and heroics and chiselled good looks and the glaiven, who was black. They’d Freak. The Fuck. Out. Probably conspire to bring him down just out of their own insecurities. Could be an interesting story. > [@Guinastasia](#): > > Hasn’t there been any attempt at doing traditional African folktales, rather than just doing rehashes of the same old thing? I think THAT would be really cool. There was a children’s television series called “Tinga Tinga Tales” which covered some of these, although many of them have been filtered through Kipiing’s “Just So Stories” and similar Western retellings. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2019, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/526 "2019-07-08T10:09:41Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Already seen this: a few redheads complaining that - never mind skin color - there aren’t enough **real** redheads being cast in redhead roles. I pointed them at Karen Gillan and told them to wait for the live-action version of Brave. To be fair, the example you gave is of an actress whose most prominent role had her shave off all her hair and paint her skin blue. Otherwise, I agree. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2019, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/527 "2019-07-08T10:12:35Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > To be fair, the example you gave is of an actress whose most prominent role had her shave off all her hair and paint her skin blue. > > Otherwise, I agree. I think of her mostly for her Doctor Who role, plus there’s a new Jumanji movie out. ---
**Author:** ![MickNickMaggies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/59ef9b/32.png) [@MickNickMaggies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MickNickMaggies)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2019, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/528 "2019-07-08T10:21:56Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > It could be an interesting reading to reverse it, by setting it in one of the mediaeval African kingdoms with Othello played as a white mercenary, or one of the Europeans who rose to significant postiions after being taken into slavery in one of the North African kingdoms. > > It’s not uncommon to do race/gender-reversed productions of Shakespeare, these days. It has been done- quite famously, as well. Patrick Stewart played Othello in 1997, as a white man. > **[THEATER REVIEW; The Green-Eyed Monster Fells Men of Every Color (Published 1997)](https://www.nytimes.com/1997/11/21/movies/theater-review-the-green-eyed-monster-fells-men-of-every-color.html)** > > Peter Marks reviews Othello, directed by Jude Kelly for Shakespeare Theater in Washington, DC; Patrick Stewart and Ron Canada star in unusual version in which Othello is white and everyone else is black; photo (S) ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2019, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/529 "2019-07-08T11:13:56Z")
> [@bmoak](#): > > First, he needs to be in a city with a lot of skyscrapers in a pretty compact area. The image of Spider-Man swinging from building to building on a webline is pretty iconic and it’s also how he gets around. Imagine Spider-Man operating in LA or Washington DC. There were a few times he ended up in Tinyville (Middle of the USA) and it would get mentioned, “damn, I’m used to swinging off buildings and here the trees are taller than the houses”. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2019, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/530 "2019-07-08T14:37:15Z")
**Gyrate** , What is “glaiven”? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2019, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/531 "2019-07-08T15:09:14Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > **Gyrate** , > > What is “glaiven”? It’s a gratuitous [Simpsons](https://simpsons.fandom.com/wiki/Made-up_words#G) reference I threw in. Pay it no mind. > [@](#): > > Glavin - A word used by Professor Frink when he’s muttering. In one episode while he’s shocked he says, “Great glaven in a glass!” or “Good glavin!” It is most often heard when Frink is in pain like “Oh, so much pain in the glavin!” (pronounced / ˈglejvn̩/) This is probably an adaptation of Jerry Lewis’s interjection “froyndleyven!”, which, in turn, is presumed to be Yiddish semi-nonsense roughly meaning “happytime!” (cf. standard German “Freund”, friend; “Freude”, joy; “Leben”, life). The similarity to Slavic words for ‘head’ (golova, glava, glowa) does not account for the vowels or ‘n’ and is probably coincidental. Lewis’s portrayal of the Nutty Professor is considered by many Simpsons fans to be partial inspiration for Frink’s character, and Lewis did a guest voice in one episode as Frink’s father. > > Frink: That meteor is headed straight for us, with the fire, and the impact, and the hundred percent chance of pain!… Pain in the glavin! ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2019, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/532 "2019-07-08T15:26:21Z")
> [@CAH66](#): > > Okay then. The kinds of changes I’d personally accept for Peter and still view it as being\* the same\* Peter would be the kinds that happen within the narrative. I was under the impression that you consider the various white Peter Parkers the same Peter Parker, but you really see the retellings of the origin story as happening within the narrative? > [@](#): > > If Peter Parker was just suddenly black I would think of him as one of the endless variants in the multiverse unless it was somehow explained inside the continuity in some way. Why is “Peter Parker isn’t white” quantitatively different to you, while “Aunt May is young now” isn’t? And was there some explanation for why inside the continuity? I’m fine with the answers “It’s just how I feel”, “That’s not what I mean” and “…”, by the way. I just still think you’re creating elaborate justifications for an emotional response to a particular type of change in a world where making big changes isn’t usual. (An emotional response you share with many, but that doesn’t make the arguments less post hoc rationalization.) ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2019, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/533 "2019-07-08T16:30:55Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I get a little bit of anxiety about it. White people who are dimly aware of the idea of cultural appropriation may think they’re going to catch flak for dressing up as a character of another race/ethnicity. If dressing as a stereotype of a generic black person is bad, is it also bad to dress as a specific person who’s black? It’s incredibly easy to find articles in mainstream publications (the [New York Times](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/13/style/black-panther-children-costumes.html); [People](https://people.com/parents/black-panther-halloween-costume-cultural-appropriation-debate/)) discussing whether it is appropriate for white children to dress up as Black Panther. There was a similar discussion about [Moana](https://people.com/parents/moana-halloween-costume-cultural-appropriation-debate/). I’m not going to do an exhaustive search, but there are very clearly a number of people who believe that it is inappropriate for a white child to “dress as a specific person” who is not white. I tend to agree with you that it is broadly beneficial for white children to imagine themselves as non-white characters. But, I would think a well-meaning white person who is exposed to these articles (especially one who embraces the importance of affirming to the experiences of non-white voices) who might conclude that they would catch flak (or that they should simply make their children abstain out of sensitivity to non-white children). Edit: I don’t think this applies to casting a black Ariel or really any situation in which to “change” the race of a character. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2019, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/534 "2019-07-08T16:41:24Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Already seen this: a few redheads complaining that - never mind skin color - there aren’t enough **real** redheads being cast in redhead roles. I pointed them at Karen Gillan and told them to wait for the live-action version of Brave. > > I’ve been thinking about that. Lots of insecure white people are losing their shit over a fictional half-human being played by a black actress.\*\* Imagine if there was a real Superman, with all the powers and heroics and chiselled good looks and the glaiven, who was black. They’d Freak. The Fuck. Out. Probably conspire to bring him down just out of their own insecurities. Could be an interesting story. > \*\* > There was a children’s television series called “Tinga Tinga Tales” which covered some of these, although many of them have been filtered through Kipiing’s “Just So Stories” and similar Western retellings. Oh come on. They made GOD black 16 years ago and no one gave a fuck. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2019, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/535 "2019-07-08T16:45:24Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > No, it’s really not. If you dress as a racist stereotype, and people yell at you for dressing as a racist stereotype, I’m not gonna lose too much sleep. > > On the other hand, if a white kid dressed as [Coco](https://pixar-planet.fr/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/miguel-personnage-coco-10.jpg), I’d be real surprised to see him get much pushback; or if a white dude cosplayed as [Necalli](https://www.listal.com/character/necalli), I’d expect very little pushback. And if somebody yelled at them for it, I’d be a lot likelier to think the yeller was an asshole. > > It’s the difference between donning a wig or hat to represent a specific character, and donning a wig or hat to represent an ethnic stereotype. Heh…ok how about if I’m dressing up as an actor who is a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude! ---
**Author:** ![BeagleJesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5daacb/32.png) [@BeagleJesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeagleJesus)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2019, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/536 "2019-07-08T16:48:51Z")
So it seems the Little Mermaid situation has already been discussed in my absence but I would like to take a second and applaud Disney/Freeform for their response. Specifically this bit: _“…the character of Ariel is a work of fiction. So after all this is said and done, and you still cannot get past the idea that choosing the incredible, sensational, highly-talented, gorgeous Halle Bailey is anything other than the INSPIRED casting that it is because she ‘doesn’t look like the cartoon one,’ oh boy, do I have some news for you…about you.”_ [https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/disney-s-freeform-stands-by-halle-bailey-s-little-mermaid-casting-in-open-letter-to-critics/ar-AADZjaP?li=BBnb7Kz](https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/disney-s-freeform-stands-by-halle-bailey-s-little-mermaid-casting-in-open-letter-to-critics/ar-AADZjaP?li=BBnb7Kz) ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2019, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/537 "2019-07-08T17:07:07Z")
> [@BeagleJesus](#): > > So it seems the Little Mermaid situation has already been discussed in my absence but I would like to take a second and applaud Disney/Freeform for their response. > > Specifically this bit: _“…the character of Ariel is a work of fiction. So after all this is said and done, and you still cannot get past the idea that choosing the incredible, sensational, highly-talented, gorgeous Halle Bailey is anything other than the INSPIRED casting that it is because she ‘doesn’t look like the cartoon one,’ oh boy, do I have some news for you…about you.”_ > [MSN](https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/disney-s-freeform-stands-by-halle-bailey-s-little-mermaid-casting-in-open-letter-to-critics/ar-AADZjaP?li=BBnb7Kz) 95% of all famous literary/movie figures are fictional. 99% if you’re atheist. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2019, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/538 "2019-07-08T17:26:50Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > It’s incredibly easy to find articles in mainstream publications (the [New York Times](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/13/style/black-panther-children-costumes.html); [People](https://people.com/parents/black-panther-halloween-costume-cultural-appropriation-debate/)) discussing whether it is appropriate for white children to dress up as Black Panther. There was a similar discussion about [Moana](https://people.com/parents/moana-halloween-costume-cultural-appropriation-debate/). I’m not going to do an exhaustive search, but there are very clearly a number of people who believe that it is inappropriate for a white child to “dress as a specific person” who is not white. I was about to take what you said at face value. Then I followed your link. First, the People link, since it didn’t require a login. Dude, that article is 100% sourced off the NYT article you linked to. It’s just sloppy journalism: “Read my article that’s just a summary of an article written by an actual reporter, so I’ll get the ad revenue instead of them!” [edit: oh shit–the article continues after a point where it looks like it ends, and they do quote some randos on Twitter complaining about white people dressing as black superheros. My bad. In my defense, this is the line that I thought was the end of the article and really wasn’t: > [@](#): > > Want all the latest pregnancy and birth announcements, plus celebrity mom blogs? Click here to get those and more in the PEOPLE Parents newsletter. As for the NYT article, there is not a single person quoted in that article who “believe[s] that it is inappropriate for a white child to ‘dress as a specific person’ who is not white.” The actor and the director of Black Panther are an enthusiastic YES, as are most of the folks quoted in the article. There’s one professor who says, “As parents, or even as the people creating costumes, we need to be very aware of what that says.” Her quotes in the article are pretty unclear, but I think she’s suggesting, later, that when white kids dress up as Black Panther, white parents should take it as an opportunity to talk about race with their kids. > [@](#): > > I tend to agree with you that it is broadly beneficial for white children to imagine themselves as non-white characters. But, I would think a well-meaning white person who is exposed to these articles (especially one who embraces the importance of affirming to the experiences of non-white voices) who might conclude that they would catch flak (or that they should simply make their children abstain out of sensitivity to non-white children). Not based on a reasonable reading of those articles, they wouldn’t. As I said earlier, c’mon, people, think it through. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2019, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/539 "2019-07-08T18:30:39Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > Heh…ok how about if I’m dressing up as an actor who is a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude! Never go full racial stereotype. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2019, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/540 "2019-07-08T18:47:28Z")
> [@bmoak](#): > > First, he needs to be in a city with a lot of skyscrapers in a pretty compact area. Queens, the area that the original comic book Peter lived in until he married MJ and moved out of Aunt May’s house, is hardly sky-scrapery. Yes, he generally operates within the core of the city, but there’s a hell of a lot of other cities which are built up the same way - transfer him to LA, Toronto, or Tokyo, and he’d have no problem finding areas to swing off of skyscrapers…or areas where he couldn’t. And he doesn’t actually need skyscrapers for swinging - anything above 3 or 4 stories is plenty (and even lower buildings would do in a pinch, just with a smaller arc) - any large city in the world would give him plenty of room to swing. He’s optimized for large cities, yes, but nothing about Spider-Man requires that city to be New York…A Peter Parker who lived in another city would be a slightly different character, yes - just as one who lives in an apartment, or one whose Aunt May is closer in age to him, or one who never met Gwen Stacy is - but the fundamentals - his power set, the core of his personality, his personal history - all fit comfortably in a different character. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460.md?page=28)