# Switching the Race of Characters **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 13, 2019, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460 "2019-06-13T02:53:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2019, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/41 "2019-06-13T16:36:58Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > he should … Or what? What is the consequence? ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2019, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/42 "2019-06-13T16:43:36Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > It’s still about context though. Is Thor the god of 14th century Vikings, where both Thor and the Vikings are a central part of the plot? If so, a black Thor creates a dissonance that distracts from the production. On the other hand, when considering an alternate version of a comic book hero with only a superficial connection to Norse mythology, if the Norse origin isn’t central to the universe, there’s no reason race needs to be. Also, there’s other attributes besides race. Eddie Remayne would make a terrible Thor. The Viking era ended in the 11th century. By the 14th Scandinavia had been pretty much exclusively Christian for at least 200 years, with the exception being Sami traditional religion rather than pockets of Norse paganism. Which of course isn’t relevant to you point. As someone descended from Frey\* I agree completely that Marvel Thor never was all that closely tied to mythical Thor in the first place. Wrong helmet, wrong hammer, wrong hair color. I’m more offended by that, and stuff like Hela being sister to Loki instead of daughter than I am about Idris Elba. And to be honest the only thing about it that really irks me is when someone thinks they know Norse myths and they’ve only got drips through the Marvel universe. \*There’s multiple parts of that line that is scholarly … dubious ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2019, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/43 "2019-06-13T16:46:40Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > So yes, if a director is trying to depict a Norse type Thor, he should use a white actor. If all he cares about is the God of Thunder, then use whatever actor best fits the storyline and universe. I have to disagree. If someone did a whole series of Norse Myths for TV, like Gaiman just did in literature, I would have no problem with it having a diverse cast. I’d be annoyed if Thor was thin, not if he was Polynesian. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2019, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/44 "2019-06-13T17:06:25Z")
What gets me is when people complain about “changing” the race of a character (presumably, literary) whose race was never specified to begin with. Like, did Douglas Adams ever say that Ford Prefect _didn’t_ look like Mos Def? About the limit of description we have of him is that he has one head, and he’s not British. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2019, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/45 "2019-06-13T17:48:23Z")
Done right: Heimdell. He isn’t Agardian. And he’s played very powerful, and unique. Idris Elba as The Gunslinger. Who cares what ‘race’ he is. The MCU Spidey-cast. They went all in!! Flash, Ned, MJ. AND their ages overshadow everything making race-swapping a non-issue. A black Baron Mordo? Who cares. The Ancient One (Fuck you Margaret Cho) No one took a job from an Asian…and if they did? So Fucking What. Life’s not fair. Also…would it have been ok to get a Chinese actor? TO PLAY A TIBETAN?? How down the rabbit-hole of victim-hood do we want to go? Just fuck off Margaret. Done Wrong: Diversity and inclusion for the sake of doing so. That Mary Queen of Scots movie? Just because the director “Wasnt interested in directing an all-white period piece”? So you’re just pandering and throwing out token roles? Star Trek Discovery. Ok, you’ve cast a lot of female roles. Thats cool…ANNNND 90% of them have the emotional stability of five year old girls. That’s very empowering. I too can be a woman in charge who starts wailing at the drop of a hat. …and that Witcher series looks like its going to be a train wreck. You know whats REALLY done wrong? I commented a while back on the dearth of black villains and anti-heroes. How African-American audiences WANT a black character on a level of Dr. Doom or Magneto. An established comic-book writer told me that he agreed theres a modern day under-representation of black villains…but he would be damned if he would write one cause that would make him racist…somehow. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2019, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/46 "2019-06-13T18:39:11Z")
I don’t think I could come up with any hard and fast rules for this. It’s just too subjective. I think Idris Elba would make an amazing James Bond. I was about to say he’s getting a little too old for the role, but a quick Google tells me he’s only 46! I would have guessed we was over 50. The movie version has evolved so far beyond the original source material that I feel like that’s a meaningless excuse to insist on him being white. As are any claims of movie continuity, it’s not like there’s any similarity between Roger Moore’s Bond and Craig’s Bond besides their nationality and skin color. I’m not super into the Ghost In the Shell stuff, but I can’t say I see any issue with the casting of ScarJo there either. That said, the casting of Emma Stone in Aloha felt really wrong to me. It’s difficult to explain why it’s different except perhaps that the character in Aloha’s native Hawaiian-ness is sort of central to several plot points. They way they hand waved it away felt really dismissive. Having an black Peter Parker or a white Spawn would probably really bother me. Having a black alternate-reality Spider-man was absolutely okay. Is it because there’s source material backing it up or is it because the multiverse explicitly makes it possible? I’m not sure. In general I think the Sfi-Fi, Fantasy, Comic genres this is going to largely be much less problematic just by their nature. Though as the OP notes…certain characters are just iconic. Making Peter Parker or Clark Kent black isn’t “wrong” per se…but it’ll probably ruin the story for most people. Bad creative choice. ---
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanub/32/132_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUB)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2019, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/47 "2019-06-13T19:05:21Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > ". . . > In general I think the Sfi-Fi, Fantasy, Comic genres this is going to largely be much less problematic just by their nature. Though as the OP notes…certain characters are just iconic. Making Peter Parker or Clark Kent black isn’t “wrong” per se…but it’ll probably ruin the story for most people. **Bad creative choice**. I think this sums it up; sometimes it’s simply not a good creative choice. Nobody is saying it’s “wrong” or that lasting consequences would ensue (though possibly at the box office). ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2019, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/48 "2019-06-13T19:47:45Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > I think a black or Asian cast doing Fiddler on the Roof in a Russian village setting would be a bit jarring. [Tell that to Troy Barnes](https://youtube.com/watch?v=9T6G1_uvGWI). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2019, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/49 "2019-06-13T19:59:02Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > How down the rabbit-hole of victim-hood do we want to go? It would be bad enough if a bunch of people who had never experienced any real oppression were dismissing the concept. But, of course, it’s much worse. Many of the people who have never experienced any oppression and dismiss what’s happened (and is still happening) to other people will then turn around and snivel about their own faux oppression. ---
**Author:** ![Yodalicious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yodalicious/32/8195_2.png) [@Yodalicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yodalicious)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2019, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/50 "2019-06-13T20:40:30Z")
I’ll talk about comic books since I know them pretty well. Almost any comic book character could be played by someone of a different race, without a problem. Two exceptions that come to mind right away are Captain America and [Captain Nazi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Nazi). Cap A’s origin goes back to the American army during WWII. The army was not yet integrated, and there is NO way a non-white person would have been chosen to get the super soldier serum, and represent the USA. And, Captain Nazi, I think the character speaks for itself. There was a little bit of an uproar when Finn Jones was cast as Danny Rand in the Iron Fist Netflix series. There were people who said that an Asian-American should be cast, since Iron Fist can be seen in the “white savior” trope. The counter argument that I read was that the “Asian getting magical kung fu powers” was just as bad. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2019, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/51 "2019-06-13T20:44:03Z")
I’d have no prob with a female Bond either but with a few conditions: 1. Only call her Bond or 007 until the end of the film when we reveal her name is Tracy. …little Easter Egg there. 2. I can only think of one actress off the top of my head (and the poor woman isn’t getting younger) Charlize Theron. I’m sure you all can think of others but she can’t be American so no “Zoe Saldana who trained for 6 months” ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2019, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/52 "2019-06-13T20:47:47Z")
> [@Yodalicious](#): > > I’ll talk about comic books since I know them pretty well. Almost any comic book character could be played by someone of a different race, without a problem. Two exceptions that come to mind right away are Captain America and [Captain Nazi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Nazi). Cap A’s origin goes back to the American army during WWII. The army was not yet integrated, and there is NO way a non-white person would have been chosen to get the super soldier serum, and represent the USA. And, Captain Nazi, I think the character speaks for itself. But… …they basically made Sam the new Captain America at the end of Endgame (Overly cautious spoiler which is hard not to give context on without spoiling it) ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2019, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/53 "2019-06-13T20:51:28Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > But… > > (Overly cautious spoiler which is hard not to give context on without spoiling it) Pretty sure he meant “1940s Cap” There are also tons of POC characters that shouldn’t be made white…namely every single fucking Native superhero because they ALL have either stereotypical powers or are related to “The Rez” 2019 D.C. And Marvel and you still haven’t even bothered to make amends. Note: Forge would be perfect if it wernt for his backstory ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2019, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/54 "2019-06-13T20:53:20Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > I’d have no prob with a female Bond either but with a few conditions: > > 1. Only call her Bond or 007 until the end of the film when we reveal her name is Tracy. …little Easter Egg there. > > 2. I can only think of one actress off the top of my head (and the poor woman isn’t getting younger) Charlize Theron. I’m sure you all can think of others but she can’t be American so no “Zoe Saldana who trained for 6 months” This is pretty much the perfect example of a bad idea. Bond’s womanizing/misogyny/masculinity is basically his defining characteristic. It’s practically the only thing that’s a constant over the decades to the point that it’s been parodied even more often than his gadgets and cars. It would literally be one of the first words you used for a clue in $25,000 Pyramid. You’d be able to make him American before you would make him a woman. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2019, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/55 "2019-06-13T20:57:30Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > Pretty sure he meant “1940s Cap” Sure, but that kind of illustrates my point. Comics have WAY to many loopholes that allow a creator to adapt a character in such a way that changing races isn’t anachronistic or otherwise too jarring for the audience. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2019, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/56 "2019-06-13T20:58:45Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > There were different “races” in Norse mythology, but the races were gods, men, dwarves, giants, and I’ve probably missed a couple. I don’t think any were portrayed as dark-skinned. The svartálfar are dark skinned. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2019, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/57 "2019-06-13T20:59:39Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > This is pretty much the perfect example of a bad idea. Bond’s womanizing/misogyny/masculinity is basically his defining characteristic. It’s practically the only thing that’s a constant over the decades to the point that it’s been parodied even more often than his gadgets and cars. It would literally be one of the first words you used for a clue in $25,000 Pyramid. > > You’d be able to make him American before you would make him a woman. I question the premise whether any particular characteristic is indispensable, but taking that as given– Why would it be impossible for a woman character to have that kind of trait? Look, Bond is essentially a sociopath, and he applies that to his sexual encounters. A Bond who was a woman could do the same thing–sex for pleasure, with no remorse, and willing to suffer the demise of sexual partners without remorse. ---
**Author:** ![Zyada](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zyada/32/3028_2.png) [@Zyada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zyada)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2019, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/58 "2019-06-13T21:01:47Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > You know whats REALLY done wrong? I commented a while back on the dearth of black villains and anti-heroes. How African-American audiences WANT a black character on a level of Dr. Doom or Magneto. An established comic-book writer told me that he agreed theres a modern day under-representation of black villains…but he would be damned if he would write one cause that would make him racist…somehow. The problem is that this fits in too well with the white supremacist narrative of “All black people are criminals, idiots, or otherwise sub-human” To do it right, it would have to be an anti-hero, or a villain opposed to a hero who is also black. Either way, the character would need to be powerful through intelligence, not brawn. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2019, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/59 "2019-06-13T21:08:40Z")
> [@Yodalicious](#): > > Cap A’s origin goes back to the American army during WWII. The army was not yet integrated, and there is NO way a non-white person would have been chosen to get the super soldier serum, and represent the USA. You think the US wasn’t above testing stuff on Blacks as human guinea pigs before giving it to White soldiers? ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2019, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460/60 "2019-06-13T21:08:46Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I question the premise whether any particular characteristic is indispensable, but taking that as given– > > Why would it be impossible for a woman character to have that kind of trait? Look, Bond is essentially a sociopath, and he applies that to his sexual encounters. A Bond who was a woman could do the same thing–sex for pleasure, with no remorse, and willing to suffer the demise of sexual partners without remorse. Exactly. Starbuck didnt suffer a bit by being gender-swapped. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switching-the-race-of-characters/835460.md?page=4)