Switching the Race of Characters

[BigT]

@BeagleJesus

You guys realize this is make believe, right? You can literally make the story to be anything you want it to be?

If you can’t envision a black superman without having to change the story at all then that is a failure of your imagination and a product of your personal hang ups.

You can sit there and say you want your superhero stories to make sense and not white wash history (think about that for second) but the only thing stopping it from making sense is your sense of what is right and wrong.

No, what matters is what your audience will accept. Fiction isn’t written for the writer. That’s just personal fantasy.

I guarantee you that, if you make Superman black without changing anything, it will be accused of white washing history. People don’t change things without a reason, and the reason there would seem to be to say that Superman’s story wouldn’t change if he were black.

But, since it’s set in something like the real world, it in fact would change. Worlds may be make-believe, but they are based on some sort of common reality.

It’s not a limit of my imagination. I can imagine Superman being black without changing the story. I just know it won’t actually work in front of an audience. I can imagine it working, but I know I’m imagining something that would not happen in real life.

Verisimilitude is important to fiction. You cannot break the suspension of disbelief. Storytelling depends on it.

[Shodan]

@BeagleJesus

You guys realize this is make believe, right? You can literally make the story to be anything you want it to be?

If you can’t envision a black superman without having to change the story at all then that is a failure of your imagination and a product of your personal hang ups.

You can sit there and say you want your superhero stories to make sense and not white wash history (think about that for second) but the only thing stopping it from making sense is your sense of what is right and wrong.

Not if you are writing for an audience. If you are writing for an audience, it has to make sense to them.

Maybe you have no problem casting Oprah Winfrey as the new Batman and Kaitlyn Jenner as Robin (guest starring Forrest Whitaker as Catwoman), but it might not work to blame the audience’s lack of imagination if it doesn’t do big box office.

Regards,
Shodan

[Licentious_Ectomorph]

Here’s my thing: comic book fans want to see their comics brought to life. When the characters on screen don’t look like the characters on the page, that’s a fail in the eyes of the fanboys (and -girls). Their ire isn’t necessarily motivated by racism so much as a desire for (what they consider) “accuracy.”

Example: the casting of Michael B. Jordan as the Human Torch in the latest “Fantastic Four” abortion. The entire POINT of the Fantastic Four is that they’re a family. Making Johnny Storm black was blatant tokenism that added needless layers of complication to ALL of their backstories, relationships, and dynamics.

At the risk of being called racist, I looked askance when Valkyrie (and to a lesser extent, Heimdall) was cast with a black actor. These are characters lifted directly from Norse mythology. Nothing gets any whiter than that. Despite what others have suggested upthread, I seriously doubt the ancient Norse were picturing their gods as black. More blatant pandering, tokenism, and “inclusion” for the sake of it.

I totally, TOTALLY get black people’s desire to be more represented and included. As a gay man, I am thrilled and proud that Batwoman - the first lesbian superhero to headline in her own comic - is now getting her own TV show. Not so many years ago, that would have been unthinkable. But are black people really happy with film producers figuratively patting them on the head by arbitrarily making white characters black and then saying “There ya go, you’re included”?

Furthermore, can this “any character can be any race” philosophy be applied universally? Can you imagine the backlash if the Falcon were played by a white actor? Although the comics character has been black since the 1960s, there’s nothing inherently “black” about him. Military guy with mechanical wings. Why can’t he be white? Yet somehow, I don’t think that would have gone over very well.

Remember the backlash a few years ago when the “Gods of Egypt” were cast with white actors? There’s always an outcry about “whitewashing” characters of color. Yet it seems these same SJW’s (mostly white, unless I miss my guess) are hunky dory with making white characters black.

monstro - I always enjoy your posts, I respect you to the moon and back, and I consider you almost synonymous with the SDMB. I sincerely welcome any critique you might have (not that I think all black people think the same way).

[Acsenray]

Comic book fanboys whose dearest wish is to see their canon parroted on screen as a group don’t have $2 billion worth of members worldwide. Popular movies are way way way beyond what that group wants.

[Omniscient]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

Any of the answers you come up with could be really interesting. Black Spiderman 100% worked, and it worked by setting the character in a society that has some racism, but not making that racism the focal point of the story. They could equally have set the movie in an alt-New York where racism had never existed (or where it functioned in a way that didn’t impact multiracial kids), but that wasn’t the choice they made.

I feel like maybe you didn’t see that movie.

@BigT

Yes, obviously, you can choose to make a character be whatever you want.

They keep rebuilding that strawman as fast as we can tear it down.

@Licentious_Ectomorph

Furthermore, can this “any character can be any race” philosophy be applied universally? Can you imagine the backlash if the Falcon were played by a white actor? Although the comics character has been black since the 1960s, there’s nothing inherently “black” about him. Military guy with mechanical wings. Why can’t he be white? Yet somehow, I don’t think that would have gone over very well.

Backlash? People would lose their fucking minds.

[Acsenray]

… because the racial issue in the entertainment industry is the systematic exclusion of non-white and non-male people from and the over-representation of white men in roles on screen and off screen.

Yes, white people and men taking any of the paltry number of non-white and non-male roles will draw criticism, because that’s exactly part of the problem in the first place. There’s no valid parallelism argument here. White men don’t have a fairness claim. They already have way more fairness than they are due.

[Omniscient]

@Acsenray

… because the racial issue in the entertainment industry is the systematic exclusion of non-white and non-male people from and the over-representation of white men in roles on screen and off screen.

Yes, white people and men taking any of the paltry number of non-white and non-male roles will draw criticism, because that’s exactly part of the problem in the first place. There’s no valid parallelism argument here. White men don’t have a fairness claim. They already have way more fairness than they are due.

But it’s ART!

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Omniscient

I feel like maybe you didn’t see that movie.

Not sure why I’d give a shit about your feeling, but for what it’s worth it’s my favorite superhero movie ever.

@BeagleJesus

You guys realize this is make believe, right? You can literally make the story to be anything you want it to be?

If you can’t envision a black superman without having to change the story at all then that is a failure of your imagination and a product of your personal hang ups.

How far do you take this idea? Could an author remake Blackkklansman or Sorry to Bother You with a white protagonist and change nothing else and have an effective movie? Could Schindler’s List be remade with Schindler played by a Japanese woman and it’d be coherent?

I’m all about changing stories, but stories exist in societies, and the society-building aspect of stories is one of my favorite things about science fiction (see my username), and in period pieces I’m also really interested in social dynamics. Changes are great. Authors who don’t think about the changes they make can be annoying.

[Omniscient]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

Not sure why I’d give a shit about your feeling, but for what it’s worth it’s my favorite superhero movie ever.

My point is that that it’s set in Earth 1610, which as far as racism goes, is just like Earth 616. They didn’t change the source material at all here and they didn’t make any choices at all in regards to racism.

It should be noted that the same SJWs who rant and rave about the overt racism in Hollywood (and being barfed all over this thread) started an idiotic backlash against the Miles Morales character because he was biracial as opposed to 100% black. This somehow was a major injustice. He didn’t fit their definition of “woke” and those pesky Puerto Ricans were co-opting their pain and suffering.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Omniscient

My point is that that it’s set in Earth 1610, which as far as racism goes, is just like Earth 616. They didn’t change the source material at all here and they didn’t make any choices at all in regards to racism.

It should be noted that the same SJWs who rant and rave about the overt racism in Hollywood (and being barfed all over this thread) started an idiotic backlash against the Miles Morales character because he was biracial as opposed to 100% black. This somehow was a major injustice. He didn’t fit their definition of “woke” and those pesky Puerto Ricans were co-opting their pain and suffering.

Say what now? Your point about how you think I didn’t see the movie is some next-level nerd shit about the number of the universe in which the comic book took place, and then some hypothetical and uncited frustration somebody somewhere had about differences between the comic book and the movie?

Okay dude. I’ve never set eyes on the comic book, so I don’t know what the fuck you’re getting at here. My comments are limited to the movie.

[Omniscient]

Wow, you didn’t understand what I wrote at all. Oh well, certainly seems like you’re in no state to have a discussion with on this topic.

The second statement I made wasn’t even pointed at you. We’re on the same side of this debate. :shrug:

[Push_You_Down]

…jesus… there’s so real hot garbage takes in this thread.
I’m so tired of fake fanboys draping themselves in “but in the comics!” just to justify their own racism, misogyny and/or insecurity.
Yes, a black Superman that takes place in the 1930s has to address race if it’s meant to take place in our world. A black Superman that takes place in 2010s doesn’t…but probably should address race… as is evidenced in this thread.

TheMarySue posted a short piece about how “fat” Thor in Endgame has been embraced by fanboys because of “now look who I can cosplay.”…The point of the piece was ‘NOW to you understand why representation matters?’ It’s nice to see something closer to yourself on screen and by extension on tv or in a comic.

[Omniscient]

@Push_You_Down

…jesus… there’s so real hot garbage takes in this thread.
I’m so tired of fake fanboys draping themselves in “but in the comics!” just to justify their own racism, misogyny and/or insecurity.

Literally no one is doing that.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Omniscient

Wow, you didn’t understand what I wrote at all.

That’s for sure; it was incoherent, and it didn’t address anything I’d written.

I’ve never seen anyone so completely fail to live up to a username.

If you’d like to try again and think it’s important, maybe explain what error you think I made before that led to your contemptuous comment about how I hadn’t seen the movie. But given that it was a wrong comment to begin with, maybe walk away.

[Broomstick]

@MrAtoz

And come to think of it, I don’t think Earth-2 is actually a thing anymore, either.

It is in the TV version of The Flash, Green Arrow, Supergirl, The Legends of Tomorrow,, etc.

It’s where they park all the “Golden Age” superheros, like the Jay Garrick Flash.

[Broomstick]

@Shodan

I think one of the reasons that The Wild, Wild West movie fell flat with a resounding clank was the scene where Jim West cajoles the lynch mob out of hanging him. Not because Jim West has to be white, dammit, and not because Will Smith isn’t a good actor, but because the notion of being the charming rogue and jollying an 1870s lynch mob out of a hanging stretches plausibility way beyond the breaking point whereas steam-powered metal robots does not.

Yes, that’s exactly what broke that movie for me.

[Acsenray]

That sarcasm is visible. It has mass. You could cut it with a butter knife.

[Push_You_Down]

@Omniscient

Literally no one is doing that.

You’re such a joy in this thread.

[Broomstick]

@Licentious_Ectomorph

At the risk of being called racist, I looked askance when Valkyrie (and to a lesser extent, Heimdall) was cast with a black actor. These are characters lifted directly from Norse mythology.

Um… “to lesser extent, Heimdall”? Seriously?

In the original sagas Heimdall was described as the whitest/fairest of the gods. Which, again, sort of illustrates that a lot of people who think they know the source material on some things don’t actually really know the source material. Which, not being a fanboy, I’m personally OK with. On the other hand, the Valkyries aren’t much described as individuals and could easily be presumed various in appearance. I enjoy the Norse myths for its own thing, and the Marvel mythos in the comic books as its own thing, and the Marvel movie mythos as its own thing. Yes, they’re all clearly related but they are also all not quite the same thing. Somehow or other I became comfortable with different “takes” on the same legends/notions/stories/whatever. For that matter, I’m also OK with both the Patrick Stewart and the James MacAvoy versions of Professor Xavier in the X-men franchise. I enjoyed both the Dirk Benedict and Katee Sackhoff versions of Starbuck.

@Licentious_Ectomorph

Nothing gets any whiter than that. Despite what others have suggested upthread, I seriously doubt the ancient Norse were picturing their gods as black. More blatant pandering, tokenism, and “inclusion” for the sake of it.

Screw it - I have really enjoyed Marvel’s non-traditional, inclusive casting in both the movies and the TV versions of their stories even if I am a white lady. I also thoroughly enjoyed Black Panther with its predominantly black cast. If you don’t - well, your loss from my viewpoint. At the end of the day (or the movie, or the book, or the TV show…) what I care most about it whether or not it was a good story well told. The rest is details and props.

@Licentious_Ectomorph

But are black people really happy with film producers figuratively patting them on the head by arbitrarily making white characters black and then saying “There ya go, you’re included”?

I’m going to risk going out on a limb here (and invited any black people to correct me if I’m in error), but

• yes, I’m sure they’d rather have a token black character or two than none at all, and
• if the characters race doesn’t matter to the story line then who cares? Why shouldn’t all actors be able to read for and have a chance at the part?

@Licentious_Ectomorph

Furthermore, can this “any character can be any race” philosophy be applied universally? Can you imagine the backlash if the Falcon were played by a white actor? Although the comics character has been black since the 1960s, there’s nothing inherently “black” about him. Military guy with mechanical wings. Why can’t he be white? Yet somehow, I don’t think that would have gone over very well.

Unless, maybe, it was a white Falcon with a black Captain America…?

If black people defend Falcon-as-a-black-man then it might have something to do with the fact that for decades there were so few opportunities for black actors that they feel they have to hang onto every black role they can.

Look at the characters in Star Trek - I imagine there’d be a tremendous outcry if you cast Lt. Uhura as anything BUT a black human woman. Ditto Sulu as anything but Asian. With the latest reboot they cast an actual Scottsman as Scotty (both people who have played Chekhov were Russian/Russian descent). The only one who changed ethnicity was Spock - Leonard Nimoy was Ukrainian Jewish and Zachary Quinto is Irish/Italian. Well, maybe Captain Kirk - William Shatner is originally from Canada and Chris Pine from the US, although both are of Eastern European Jewish descent (Shatner Austria-Hungary, Ukraine, and Lithuania and Pine at least half Russian). Is that really necessary? Well, back in the 1960’s in the Original Series it certainly was very important to have a diverse cast, Roddenberry wanted to make a point that in the distant future a lot of stuff we were hung about about would be unimportant. Is it critically important now?… anyone want to tackle *that *question?

[Dale_Sams]

@Push_You_Down

…jesus… there’s so real hot garbage takes in this thread.
TheMarySue posted …

You know, I just would have believed you. You didn’t need to prove it.