# Switzerland bans minarets **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 29, 2009, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366 "2009-11-29T19:19:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Gymnopithys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/fbc32d/32.png) [@Gymnopithys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gymnopithys)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/201 "2009-11-30T20:01:12Z")
**Ralph124c** : “_Ask me when ANY muslim country allows Christian churches to be built._” Talk about building churches in Islamic countries… In one Islamic country they destroyed the Buddhist monuments of Bamyan. Also :“Hagia Sophia is a former Orthodox patriarchal basilica, later a mosque, now a museum in Istanbul, Turkey”. (Wikipedia). In Switzerland Islamists can build any number of mosques as they wish. And they don’t have to match the surrounding style. **An Gadaì** : “_A friend of mine lives in Switzerland and from what he’s told me it doesn’t surprise me that such a ban came into place. It seems (from the outside) like perhaps the most xenophobic country in Western Europe_.” Really ? 20 % of the Swiss population are immigrants : 1’200’000 (400’000 of them Islamists) for a population of 7 million. In the U.S. immigrants are less than 15%, in U.K 10%. > **[Why Is Switzerland the World's Most Immigrant-Friendly Country?](https://willwilkinson.wordpress.com/2008/06/11/why-is-switzerland-the-worlds-most-immigrant-friendly-country/)** > > I have to say I was pretty surprised the first time I saw this OECD graph, which shows the foreign-born as a percentage of total population \[Click for full size\]: Why was I surprised? Because it… ---
**Author:** ![Dorothea\_Book](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Dorothea\_Book](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorothea_Book)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/202 "2009-11-30T20:08:59Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > Quite, and indeed “protecting a culture” in this fashion (versus say simply supporting language education as in Quebec, etc [ahem well not so simple but…]) is almost invariably merely an attempt a palatable gloss on gross bigotry Yes, **wmfellows** , the case in Quebec isn’t simple as you clearly realize; and some of its most eloquent defenders (Charles Taylor, for example) have described Quebec in terms precisely of a right to cultural recognition. But whatever one thinks of Taylor’s arguments (I mainly don’t like them), the relevant point is that the culture in question in the Canadian debates is a _minority_ culture. Although I tend to agree with **indistinguishable** (as against Taylor I guess) that there isn’t and shouldn’t be any moral right to preserving culture, what’s demonstrably indefensible–and yes, undemocratic and illiberal–about **magellan01** ’s position is that the culture he wants to preserve is the majority culture; and he specifically wants to preserve it at the expense of a minority culture. I do think it can be defensible for states to promote culture in some restricted forms (as when there is public support for museums and educational or artistic cultural events). But there is a long and venerable history of states doing so (in Europe as well as the US) to promote cultural _diversity_ not cultural reactionariness. The more proximate case probably isn’t Quebec but the French effort to keep French culture alive as against the globalization of American popular culture and, more recently, immigrant cultures. That is a complicated terrain and other posters have already alluded to the issue of the French ban on veils. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/203 "2009-11-30T20:17:00Z")
At first I thought the ban was inarguably wrong but after reading a few responses I’ve backed off. For me it depends on why they’ve instituted the ban. Switzerland makes much (most?) of it’s money from tourism and it’s possible that Switzerland is trying to protect its tourist industry. For example, I wouldn’t blame them at all for banning, say, yellow neon McDonalds signs. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/204 "2009-11-30T20:30:56Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > At first I thought the ban was inarguably wrong but after reading a few responses I’ve backed off. For me it depends on why they’ve instituted the ban. Switzerland makes much (most?) of it’s money from tourism and it’s possible that Switzerland is trying to protect its tourist industry. For example, I wouldn’t blame them at all for banning, say, yellow neon McDonalds signs. Well, in fact you can find the finest Ugly McD signs you could want and other horrors of late 20th century architecture - commercial or sub-urban in Switzerland - it’s not all twee little fucking villages mate. And one need not ban minarets to achieve a Swiss Image result. One can easily simply impose architectural conformity. Minarets can easily look like church steeples for the sake of a bloody fuck. > [@Dorothea\_Book](#): > > Yes, **wmfellows** , the case in Quebec isn’t simple as you clearly realize; Yeah, I was trying to simplify… Been a long time since I lived there, bloody ages. > [@Gymnopithys](#): > > **Ralph124c** : “_Ask me when ANY muslim country allows Christian churches to be built._” > > Talk about building churches in Islamic countries… In one Islamic country they destroyed the Buddhist monuments of Bamyan. As I see by your numbers, a Swisser joins us. Eh, well, but several persons have already cited a goodly number of highly populous Muslim countries that allow in a non-theoretical sense churches to be built. Shall we cite Hindus destroyed churches and mosques to complete the picture? > [@](#): > > Also :“Hagia Sophia is a former Orthodox patriarchal basilica, later a mosque, now a museum in Istanbul, Turkey”. (Wikipedia). Eh. Hagia Sophia was the symbol of imperial power, and the Ottomans converted into theirs. They also left a Christians free to have the majority power. Anyway citing incidents from 800 odd years ago seems rather unenlightening for modern states (in particular cherry picked ones). Shall we also cite the contemporaneous expulsion of Muslims and Jews from Catholic Iberia and the conversion and destruction of mosques and synagogues there to complete a picture of the universality of human bigotry? > [@](#): > > In Switzerland Islamists can build any number of mosques as they wish. And they don’t have to match the surrounding style. Islamists = Muslims. Interesting. Rather reflects the kind of thinking that lead to vote. > [@](#): > > **An Gadaì** : “_A friend of mine lives in Switzerland and from what he’s told me it doesn’t surprise me that such a ban came into place. It seems (from the outside) like perhaps the most xenophobic country in Western Europe_.” > > Really ? 20 % of the Swiss population are immigrants : 1’200’000 (400’000 of them Islamists) for a population of 7 million. In the U.S. immigrants are less than 15%, in U.K 10%. > [Private Site](http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/06/11/why-is-switzerland-the-worlds-most-immigrant-friendly-country/) I think I’d stick with An Gadai’s evaluation (noting your use of the prejudicial term Islamist for Muslim - and I know bloody well that in French and German it carries the same bloody spin versus Muslim). ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/205 "2009-11-30T20:38:26Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > At first I thought the ban was inarguably wrong but after reading a few responses I’ve backed off. For me it depends on why they’ve instituted the ban. Switzerland makes much (most?) of it’s money from tourism and it’s possible that Switzerland is trying to protect its tourist industry. For example, I wouldn’t blame them at all for banning, say, yellow neon McDonalds signs. Why they’ve instituted a ban? I find it very hard to believe that it is difficult to recognize this for what it is: bigotry and bullying. Any story on this subject shows some of the campaign posters or describes the ones that were banned. They clearly demonstrate their intention. The right wing in these countries wants to whip up fear of muslims and immigrants for their political gain. In that regard, this act is no different from cartoons in Denmark, silly movies in Holland, or headscarf bans in France. These acts all share a common underlying bigotry and can be disguised in the form of “protecting” the populace from the evils of a Taliban controlled Afghanistan (as a poster implied above). The simple act of equating Turks and Bosnians with politcal Islam is a clear declaration of the prejudice behind their referendum ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/206 "2009-11-30T20:42:10Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > I think I’d stick with An Gadai’s evaluation (noting your use of the prejudicial term Islamist for Muslim - and I know bloody well that in French and German it carries the same bloody spin versus Muslim). Not only prejudicial but incorrect. I’d be surprised if there were 400,000 Islamists among the 1,200,000 immigrants, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there were 10,000 or more. Islamists are those who believe that there should be an official, supreme, role for Islam in the political system, and that sense of the word is the one which I (a previous poster) was referring to when I used that word. I certainly did not mean to imply that every Muslim in western Europe was an Islamist (as the post you reply to seems to,) but they are a not insignificant portion of the Islamic population. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/207 "2009-11-30T20:50:44Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Not only prejudicial but incorrect. I’d be surprised if there were 400,000 Islamists among the 1,200,000 immigrants, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there were 10,000 or more. Islamists are those who believe that there should be an official, supreme, role for Islam in the political system, and that sense of the word is the one which I (a previous poster) was referring to when I used that word. > > I certainly did not mean to imply that every Muslim in western Europe was an Islamist (as the post you reply to seems to,) but they are a not insignificant portion of the Islamic population. I was referring to the Swiss poster (if I recognise the number usage right), not the general usage - and also I wanted to call bullshit on a probable backtrack on language. However, it is highly revealing using the prejudicial term Islamist versus something neutral (in particular in context). > [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > The simple act of equating Turks and Bosnians with politcal Islam is a clear declaration of the prejudice behind their referendum That is why I referenced the language used to talk about Jews in Europe before WWII. This is a disturbing echo, in a non-superficial sense, of the Jewish experience. The language, the measures, the using of a highly visible minority within the religious minority that is ostentasiously not assimilated (like the Hasids for example)… Europe doesn’t need to repeat that history. ---
**Author:** ![Svejk\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@Svejk\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svejk_1)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/208 "2009-11-30T20:52:01Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > In that regard, this act is no different from cartoons in Denmark, silly movies in Holland, or headscarf bans in France. These acts all share a common underlying bigotry and can be disguised in the form of “protecting” the populace from the evils of a Taliban controlled Afghanistan (as a poster implied above). The simple act of equating Turks and Bosnians with politcal Islam is a clear declaration of the prejudice behind their referendum I’m not sure why you lump the Danish cartoons in with Wilders and the SPP. They were just cartoons, they didn’t argue that all Muslims are terrorists or something. Just because it offended people does not make it bigotry. ETA: in point of fact, when Wilders included one of the Danish cartoons in his film _Fitna_, the cartoonist protested and he had to take them out. ---
**Author:** ![Gymnopithys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/fbc32d/32.png) [@Gymnopithys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gymnopithys)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/209 "2009-11-30T21:16:56Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > …I think I’d stick with An Gadai’s evaluation (noting your use of the prejudicial term Islamist for Muslim - and I know bloody well that in French and German it carries the same bloody spin versus Muslim). I meant Muslims. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Gymnopithys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/fbc32d/32.png) [@Gymnopithys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gymnopithys)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/210 "2009-11-30T21:37:11Z")
**Ludovic** : “_I’d be surprised if there were 400,000 Islamists among the 1,200,000 immigrants, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there were 10,000 or more._” Right. Estimate of 400’000 which I have seen today seems much too high. Another source: “According to these sources, the number of Muslims in Switzerland is currently estimated between 200,000 and 250,000 people (from 2.8 to 3.5% of the resident population).” > **[Islam in Switzerland](http://switzerlandisyours.com/E/guide/religion/islam.html)** > > The Muslim community in Switzerland ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/211 "2009-11-30T22:01:32Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > Really, pray tell what logical train of thought unrelated to mere religious and ethnic bigotry supports banning minarets? I provided rationale. Try rereading the thread. You’re the one who simply waved his hand and declared that there was no reasonable basis. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/212 "2009-11-30T22:08:11Z")
Personally I think it is a gross over-reaction to the very serious issue of immigration. That is, there hasn’t been any real debate as to the sheer volume of immigration into Western Europe from Eastern Europe, Africa and the Middle-East. Any proper discussion usually descends into claims of racism, facism etc. etc. As such, the vacumn is filled with referendums like this and eventually I think with extreme candidates getting serious support amongst the elctorate. I’m opposed to the referendum but absolutely understand the sense of frustration felt by a great number of people with immigration. Long term, however, referendums like this don’t help anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/213 "2009-11-30T22:13:13Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I provided rationale. Try rereading the thread. You’re the one who simply waved his hand and declared that there was no reasonable basis. And there isn’t one. The “rationale” you presented is a joke. And irrelevant, since regardless of what excuse you try to manufacture, the actual motive here was pretty much naked religious and racial bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![Svejk\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@Svejk\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svejk_1)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/214 "2009-11-30T22:27:03Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > I’m opposed to the referendum but absolutely understand the sense of frustration felt by a great number of people with immigration. Could you expand on this? What are people frustrated with and how is that justified? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/215 "2009-11-30T22:31:26Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > Pretty remarkable bit of thinking here. It seems that, in order to prevent the spread of extremist Islamism and encourage the assimilation of the Muslim community, the Swiss are choosing to do everything within their power to make sure the Muslim population feels isolated and excluded from Swiss political culture. Well done! Sounds like a standard political ploy to garner votes and support - all in the name of freedom probably :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/216 "2009-11-30T22:59:32Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Why they’ve instituted a ban? I find it very hard to believe that it is difficult to recognize this for what it is: bigotry and bullying. I don’t deny that bigotry could be the main reason (indeed, that was my first reaction) but they haven’t (to my knowledge) banned mosques and Muslim worship. I’m against the ban but I think it’s possible that its stupidity is less nefarious than I originally thought. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/217 "2009-11-30T23:21:10Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > I don’t deny that bigotry could be the main reason (indeed, that was my first reaction) but they haven’t (to my knowledge) banned mosques and Muslim worship. It’s called banning what you can, instead of what you want. Just like the anti-gay types in America support bans on same sex marriage, instead of trying to pass laws for the extermination of gays like they support elsewhere ( Uganda’s new gay extermination laws, for example; and yes, there’s serious American support for that ). In America, the right wingers can pass laws banning SSM; they can’t pass laws calling for gays to be rounded up and murdered. So they go for the former, while wishing for the latter. In Switzerland, they can pass laws banning minarets, but not laws expelling or killing Muslims, so laws banning minarets are what they pass. ---
**Author:** ![Dorothea\_Book](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Dorothea\_Book](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorothea_Book)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/218 "2009-11-30T23:23:42Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > I don’t deny that bigotry could be the main reason (indeed, that was my first reaction) but they haven’t (to my knowledge) banned mosques and Muslim worship. I’m against the ban but I think it’s possible that its stupidity is less nefarious than I originally thought. Well thank goodness it is less stupid and nefarious than the outright ban on mosques and Muslim worship you had assumed (which would probably have had led to people rioting in the streets). But are you really content to tolerate just a small amount of nefariousness on the grounds that a larger dose would be even worse? ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/219 "2009-11-30T23:35:45Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I provided rationale. Try rereading the thread. You’re the one who simply waved his hand and declared that there was no reasonable basis. Really? It is hard to see from your rather short notes. The best I can come up with is this > [@magellan01](#): > > I think there are two reasons for this. One, is purely aesthetic. Switzerland wants to preserve the look and feel that helps define it. Nothing wrong with that. Th\*\*e other thing is the greater numbers of Muslims and how they may change the culture beyond architecture. \*\*And I see nothing wrong with that either. The same way I’d see nothing wrong with a city in the middle east or asia wanting to preserve what culturally defines it. > > I still don’t get why one shouldn’t expect to conform to the new society they’ve moved to. ::shrug:: On this we have already found the aesthetic argument … well unfounded and illogical on its face. The underlying argument, which remains as an argument really profoundly bigoted, seems to be in the bolded part - that is the Muslims are Aliens, Icky People and thus White People should kick them out. But for those who are unwilling to go the full fascist route, rather than merely banning “the wrong ethnicities” from immigration (as it would be a clear violation of international human right standards, and modern liberal democracy), as a grotesque substitute, we should suppress their visible culture. It fairly stinks of the route that too many European nations took from 1900 forward to prior alien religious minority. Now if you have actually presented anything like a logical argument, then feel free free to clearly and logically state it. Else, I feel one has an ample understanding of the real, if politely disguised rational. Anyway, I will say it again, we Europeans don’t need to do this again. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/220 "2009-12-01T00:00:43Z")
I would think Muslims would welcome the ban. It means that western Europe is adopting the values of Islamic countries. I hope that an Islamic country will publish a cartoon about it, then the Swiss can riot in the streets and threaten Muslims with death. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366.md?page=12)