# Switzerland bans minarets **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 29, 2009, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366 "2009-11-29T19:19:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/221 "2009-12-01T00:21:06Z")
> [@Dorothea\_Book](#): > > Well thank goodness it is less stupid and nefarious than the outright ban on mosques and Muslim worship you had assumed (which would probably have had led to people rioting in the streets). > > But are you really content to tolerate just a small amount of nefariousness on the grounds that a larger dose would be even worse? If they have similar conformity laws in other areas (and I believe they do), yes. Preserving the tourist appeal of Switzerland is a valid concern and while I think banning minuets is dumb I’m willing to tolerate it. For example, not too far from me in Hingham, Massachusetts, there are some neighborhoods that ban non-white Christmas lights (usually candles) to preserve the “character” of their neighborhoods. It’s dumb but it’s not a result of bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/222 "2009-12-01T00:40:06Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > If they have similar conformity laws in other areas (and I believe they do), yes. Preserving the tourist appeal of Switzerland is a valid concern and while I think banning minuets is dumb I’m willing to tolerate it. For example, not too far from me in Hingham, Massachusetts, there are some neighborhoods that ban non-white Christmas lights (usually candles) to preserve the “character” of their neighborhoods. It’s dumb but it’s not a result of bigotry. As **elmwood** pointed out [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=11829972#post11829972) and [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=11830660#post11830660), Switzerland already has plenty of 21st Century architectural diversity (including tacky commercial clutter). To repeat what _I_ said: Switzerland is not a theme park. And [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Moschee_Wangen_bei_Olten_cropped.jpg) is one of these nefarious minarets the Swiss just voted to ban construction of. I’m no expert on architecture or Swiss culture, but that looks a whole lot more “Swiss” to me than [this](http://www.flickr.com/photos/mckroes/3308974569/). ---
**Author:** ![Svejk\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@Svejk\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svejk_1)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/223 "2009-12-01T00:43:01Z")
**Deeg** , you are way, way out of your element. First of all, a minuet is a piece of music; we’re talking about minarets. Secondly: go back to some of the earlier posts in this thread - ETA: helpfully collected above by **MEBuckner** - where the suggestion that this is about tourism or architecture is discarded. For your reading pleasure, here’s the reaction of the Swiss People’s Party, currently the largest party in Switzerland and one of the main promoters of this referendum > [@](#): > > The result clearly indicates how great the discomfort of the voting citizens with the creeping Islamisation of the country is [[link; translation mine](http://www.udc.ch/g3.cms/s_page/80730/s_name/newsschlagzeile/newsContractor_id/0/newsID/1581/newsContractor_year/2009)] Also, note that the organization that collected the signatures needed to have a referendum initially wanted to have a broader referendum in which the question would be whether or not to outlaw > [@](#): > > forced marriage, personal vendetta justice, the failure to acknowledge the state’s monopoly on violence as well as avoidance of school, esp. by girls [[link; translation mine](http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kontroverse_um_den_Bau_von_Minaretten_in_der_Schweiz#Eidgen.C3.B6ssische_Volksinitiative_.C2.ABGegen_den_Bau_von_Minaretten.C2.BB)] The reason they did not go through with this is that the institution in Switzerland that approves referendum questions and tests them for constitutionality would not have it, so they thought better of it. So reading this, do you still think this is about making Switzerland safe for tourism? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/224 "2009-12-01T01:07:24Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > I don’t give a damn if it’s offensive to Muslims. Lots of things are offensive to them. That’s a strange attitude towards someone’s reaction to being denied their constitutional rights. Speaking of which, one may find an English version of the Swiss constitution [here](http://www.servat.unibe.ch/icl/sz00000_.html). Some fun articles which I think apply to this particular issue: > [@](#): > > **Article 8 Equality** > (1) All humans are equal before the law. > (2) Nobody may be discriminated against, namely for his or her origin, race, sex, age, language, social position, way of life, religious, philosophical, or political convictions, or because of a corporal or mental disability. > (3) Men and women have equal rights. The law provides for legal and factual equality, particularly in the family, during education, and at the workplace. Men and women have the right to equal pay for work of equal value. > (4) The law provides for measures to eliminate disadvantages of disabled people. > [@](#): > > **Article 9 Protection Against Arbitrariness and Preservation of Good Faith** > Every person has the right to be treated by state institutions without arbitrariness and in good faith. > [@](#): > > **Article 15 Freedom of Faith and Conscience** > (1) The freedom of faith and conscience is guaranteed. > (2) Every person has the right to freely choose his or her religion or non-denominational belief and to profess them alone or in community with others. > (3) Every person has the right to join or belong to a religious community and to receive religious education. > (4) No person may be forced to join a religious community, to conduct a religious act or participate in religious education. > [@](#): > > **Article 25 Protection Against Expulsion, Extradition, and Removal by Force** > (1) Swiss citizens may not be expelled from the country; they may be extradited to a foreign authority only with their consent. > (2) Refugees may not be removed by force or extradited to a state in which they are persecuted. > (3) Nobody may be removed by force to a state where he or she is threatened by torture or other means of cruel and inhuman treatment or punishment. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/225 "2009-12-01T01:08:47Z")
> [@eenerms](#): > > There is a Catholic Church (new building) in Doha, Qatar. Opened last year. As well as quite a few churches in Indonesia. Malaysia is predominately Muslim also; however, there are houses of worship for other faiths there. There’s a nice Hindu temple near the train station in Johor Bahru. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/226 "2009-12-01T02:44:53Z")
> [@Dorothea\_Book](#): > > Yes **Captain Amazing** just like there are some in Quebec who prefer not to think of themselves as Canadians. But the great majority ethnically French citizens of Belgian are well aware that they are Belgian nationals and their passports are EU. They’re Belgian citizens, certainly. You’re right though that there’s more of a Flemish national identity than a Walloon national identity. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/227 "2009-12-01T02:53:18Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > You do realise that some of them haven’t moved to any new society, don’t you? Not all Muslims in Switzerland are immigrants. Most of them are; it’s not as if Switzerland has a long and rich Islamic tradition. They have several “official” religions and all of them are Christian. Not every country feels the need to be the United States. Sure, the vote has at least the seeds of xenophobia, but it’s hardly surprising. A Swiss friend of mine seemed proud to tell me that women only got the right to vote in St. Gallen, one of the most conservative cantons, in the 1970s. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/228 "2009-12-01T04:00:43Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Malaysia is predominately Muslim also; however, there are houses of worship for other faiths there. There’s a nice Hindu temple near the train station in Johor Bahru. And don’t forget the beautiful [Christ Church](http://indolaysia.typepad.com/photos/melaka/100_1197.html) in Melaka, dating back to the Dutch days. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/229 "2009-12-01T06:01:56Z")
> [@Svejk\_1](#): > > Could you expand on this? What are people frustrated with and how is that justified? I’m not Swiss so I cannot speak for them but there is a feeling in Europe that there have been too many immigrants from the Middle East and Africa coming in great numbers in a short period of time. It’s very difficult to openly debate the issue without being called a racist etc. A lot of people are asking, however, how many are too many? 1, 1,000 100 million? The numbers are not insignificant and it behooves us to ask why so many choose such small countries such as Holland and Switzerland. I feel it’s a very legitimate frustration as, for example, there have been clear abuses of the asylum system which was never meant to handle the sheer volume of immigrats who have taken advantage of the system. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/230 "2009-12-01T06:55:51Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > I’m opposed to the referendum but absolutely understand the sense of frustration felt by a great number of people with immigration. Aren’t you an immigrant? ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/231 "2009-12-01T06:59:50Z")
> [@ShibbOleth](#): > > Most of them are; it’s not as if Switzerland has a long and rich Islamic tradition. Sure, most of them are, but according to [this page](http://www.eurel.info/EN/index.php?RuBintialeSS=Religions%20and%20society&intrubrique=Religious%20minorities&pais=23&rubrique=387&nompais=Switzerland) nearly one-third of all Muslims in Switzerland were born there. That is a substantial percentage, and means that this has to be addressed as something other than an issue of immigrants being obliged to adapt to the country they move to. Which **magellan01** has repeatedly refused to do. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/232 "2009-12-01T07:23:58Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > I’m not Swiss so I cannot speak for them but there is a feeling in Europe that there have been too many immigrants from the Middle East and Africa coming in great numbers in a short period of time. It’s very difficult to openly debate the issue without being called a racist etc. A lot of people are asking, however, how many are too many? 1, 1,000 100 million? The numbers are not insignificant and it behooves us to ask why so many choose such small countries such as Holland and Switzerland. According to the page I linked to above, only 5.6% of Muslims in Switzerland are from Arab countries (either the Middle East or Africa). More than half are from the Balkans. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/233 "2009-12-01T07:44:34Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > Sure, most of them are, but according to [this page](http://www.eurel.info/EN/index.php?RuBintialeSS=Religions%20and%20society&intrubrique=Religious%20minorities&pais=23&rubrique=387&nompais=Switzerland) nearly one-third of all Muslims in Switzerland were born there. Right, but even in those cases, most of the Muslims who were born there are children of immigrants. Islam is a foreign religion that’s only come to Switzerland recently. It’s not a traditional Swiss religion the way that Catholicism, Calvinism or Judaism are. It’s practiced by Turks, Bosnians, and Albanians who live in Switzerland, not the Swiss itself. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/234 "2009-12-01T07:53:33Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Right, but even in those cases, most of the Muslims who were born there are children of immigrants. Islam is a foreign religion that’s only come to Switzerland recently. It’s not a traditional Swiss religion the way that Catholicism, Calvinism or Judaism are. It’s practiced by Turks, Bosnians, and Albanians who live in Switzerland, not the Swiss itself. That’s probably generally true, although the percentage of conversions is not clear. There are bound to be some; certainly here in Ireland there are a surprising number of Irish converts among the Muslim community. But in any case, that’s not the point. These are people who were born and raised in Switzerland. They did not “go to live in another country”, as was being argued in the posts I was responding to. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/235 "2009-12-01T08:16:42Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Right, but even in those cases, most of the Muslims who were born there are children of immigrants. Islam is a foreign religion that’s only come to Switzerland recently. It’s not a traditional Swiss religion the way that Catholicism, Calvinism or Judaism are. It’s practiced by Turks, Bosnians, and Albanians who live in Switzerland, not the Swiss itself. Amazing! I never knew Christianity came from Switzerland! I always thought it came from the Middle East. As for Judaism- don’t you remember that for most of history Europe has derided Jews as practicing an alien middle-eastern religion? ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/236 "2009-12-01T08:20:15Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > Aren’t you an immigrant? I am. A legal immigrant. I never claimed asylum, never worked illegally etc. And so what? This means I have to be mute on this issue? Muslims make up a non insignifcant portio of the Swiss population, how does the current figure compare with say the figure in 1970? Further, I noted in my first post that Eastern European immigration was just as big of an issue. Switzerland is a small country with finite resources. It really doesn’t have the labour needs for a mass of low to unskilled workers that it has attracted. Instead, there is a sense that it is being exploited for it’s high standards of living and benefits to immigrants. Without free and open discussion about this issue (and potentially a moratorium on immigration), then I think these sort of reactions are going to become more common. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/237 "2009-12-01T08:31:53Z")
> [@Gymnopithys](#): > > **An Gadaì** : “_A friend of mine lives in Switzerland and from what he’s told me it doesn’t surprise me that such a ban came into place. It seems (from the outside) like perhaps the most xenophobic country in Western Europe_.” > > Really ? 20 % of the Swiss population are immigrants : 1’200’000 (400’000 of them Islamists) for a population of 7 million. In the U.S. immigrants are less than 15%, in U.K 10%. > [Private Site](http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2008/06/11/why-is-switzerland-the-worlds-most-immigrant-friendly-country/) And 30% of the people working in Switzerland are foreigners. But you are not welcome to become a national and immigrants or, worse, halfbreeds get insulted left and right. One of my coworkers in Basel was the son of a Swiss mother and Hungarian father; people kept asking him with a snerk “what’s this lastname, Portuguese?” “_sigh_ no, Hungarian, my father was from Hungary” “oh, so you’re Hungarian!” “no, I’m Swiss, I was born in Switzerland and my mother is Swiss” “but you can’t be Swiss, your name is Hungarian, you’re Hungarian!” One day. And the next. And the next. For all ten months I spent there. The bosses would join in on “the fun.” Those of us with even more “exotic” provenances would try to intervene the first few times we saw it but learn very fast that it accomplished nothing. Whenever a new foreigner joined the team, the bashing would take place in English - it was the only time the Germans and Germanswiss would speak among themselves in English, to make sure we got the message. Once we’d got it, they’d go back to “poking fun at the halfbreed” in German. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/238 "2009-12-01T08:34:46Z")
For such an awful, racist place lots of non-Swiss seem to be in a hurry to get there. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Baldy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Gary\_Baldy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Baldy)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/239 "2009-12-01T08:59:40Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > For such an awful, racist place lots of non-Swiss seem to be in a hurry to get there. It’s for the great chocolate and watches, you know. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/240 "2009-12-01T09:55:21Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > As well as quite a few churches in Indonesia. > > Malaysia is predominately Muslim also; however, there are houses of worship for other faiths there. There’s a nice Hindu temple near the train station in Johor Bahru. Also Malaysia is the place that insisted that some (rather amusing) buildings belonging to a religious community [had to be destroyed](http://www.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2005/5/30/nation/11083825&sec=nation) and its members persecuted ([Malaysia ‘teapot cult’ attacked](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4692039.stm)). And the place where they have actually prohibited non-Muslims from using a word ([Malaysia withholds ‘Allah Bibles’](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8343626.stm)). And the place where conversion out of Islam is very problematic, both from official persecution and from public persecution. Leaving Islam for another faith or for atheism is also a problem in many other Muslim countries. And while non-Islam religious buildings are not illegal in Malaysia, getting permissions to build one is often extremely difficult and non-licensed buildings have been destroyed. Yet Malaysia is one of the more open and religious liberal “Muslim nations” – but a far way to go before it reach the level of Switzerland. With or without minaret ban. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366.md?page=13)