# Switzerland bans minarets **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 29, 2009, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366 "2009-11-29T19:19:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/241 "2009-12-01T11:12:41Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I think cultures are valuable and beautiful things. Why? I mean, i’ve seemed to have got the idea from the manner in which you’ve argued along these lines here (and in the past) that you think that a culture is something that is inherently valuable, in and of itself. I’m not sure whether that’s an accurate idea of what you mean, but, if it is or isn’t, there must be factors which go towards making a culture good or not - though I don’t know whether your support for them is of the nature of suppoting what you consider good, or a purely principled democratic choice support. I ask because it seems necessary to address what and how a culture comes about if you want to protect one. You’ve argued that the Swiss have the right to protect their culture, and so this move is a good one, but there’s a point you’re missing there - certainly, that is the goal, but that doesn’t necessarily mean this is a wise decision that will lead to it. I’d be interested in hearing why you think this decision is not only reasonably motivated, but a wise method in achieving it, if indeed you do think that that’s the case. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/242 "2009-12-01T12:01:47Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > That’s a strange attitude towards someone’s reaction to being denied their constitutional rights. Speaking of which, one may find an English version of the Swiss constitution [here](http://www.servat.unibe.ch/icl/sz00000_.html). Some fun articles which I think apply to this particular issue: I thought that was pretty clear, but I still already expanded on it somewhere above: the point I was making is that whether or not Muslims would be offended by it does not matter in deciding if it’s a good or a bad law, at least not while there are much arguments to be made like the one you mentioned: it _seems_ to be a clear attack on expression & freedom of religion. If we let religious offence decide the laws we (in the Netherlands) wouldn’t have condoms, same-sex marriage - or any protection of homosexuals at all, and probably a much stricter interpretation and execution of the blasphemy laws. People should be free to belief what they want but their belief shouldn’t grant them any “legal powers of offense”. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/243 "2009-12-01T12:54:32Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Also Malaysia is the place that insisted that some (rather amusing) buildings belonging to a religious community [had to be destroyed](http://www.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2005/5/30/nation/11083825&sec=nation) and its members persecuted ([Malaysia ‘teapot cult’ attacked](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4692039.stm)). And the place where they have actually prohibited non-Muslims from using a word ([Malaysia withholds ‘Allah Bibles’](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8343626.stm)). What’s with the melange of apparently private attacks and the government action? The bible item is idiocy to be sure, although seems unresolved. > [@](#): > > And while non-Islam religious buildings are not illegal in Malaysia, getting permissions to build one is often extremely difficult and non-licensed buildings have been destroyed. Yet Malaysia is one of the more open and religious liberal “Muslim nations” – but a far way to go before it reach the level of Switzerland. With or without minaret ban. I’d rather prefer someone without axes to grind as you do found us some real benchmarks, rather than argument by assertion. I know from my business building licenses are generally a pain in the ass in Malaysia (and contra your assertions, here is a neutral benchmark of said observation: [Home](http://www.doingbusiness.org/ExploreEconomies/?economyid=119#DealingLicenses)) ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/244 "2009-12-01T13:13:14Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > What’s with the melange of apparently private attacks and the government action? > > The bible item is idiocy to be sure, although seems unresolved. Private or governmental mandated makes little difference for those it happens to as long as the government is unable or unwilling to protect the people from private persecution. And the government is dysfunctional in many Muslim dominated countries. What matters if you in Pakistan may or may not be officially legally entitled to build churches/temples if such an initiative would result in a pogrom against local Christians or Hindus? > [@wmfellows](#): > > I’d rather prefer someone without axes to grind as you do found us some real benchmarks, rather than argument by assertion. I know from my business building licenses are generally a pain in the ass in Malaysia (and contra your assertions, here is a neutral benchmark of said observation: [Home](http://www.doingbusiness.org/ExploreEconomies/?economyid=119#DealingLicenses)) Wikipedia has a [freedom of religion in Malaysia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_in_Malaysia) page. While not as bad as many other places, there does seem to be some real issues. Also to do with buildings. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/245 "2009-12-01T13:39:35Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > To answer your question, no they shouldn’t. You also make the assumption that they weren’t assimilating, or that if they weren’t, it was their fault and not the fault of the society in question refusing to let them. You, on the other hand, are assuming that the Muslims are assimilating at a reasonable rate and aren’t doing anything to provoke or anger their hosts. You’re aware of the gang rapes of European women that Muslim street gangs have been committing all across the continent, right? Europe has made a huge mistake in allowing large populations of Muslims from North Africa and the Middle East to establish themselves in Europe. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/246 "2009-12-01T13:42:24Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No; I don’t believe for a moment that is your motivation; any more than it is the motive of the people supporting this law Because, of couse, anyone who disagrees with your enlightened, progressive views must be a hate-filled monster. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/247 "2009-12-01T13:49:25Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Um, no. As pointed out upthread it was proposed by “the nationalist Swiss People’s Party”, an organization that apparently is racist and xenophobic in general. So, “on the face of it” this is all about xenophobia, not buildings. Yes, it’s always “racist and xenophobic” when whites try to preserve their own communities, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/248 "2009-12-01T13:54:00Z")
> [@elmwood](#): > > The standard “AmeriKKKa is worse” response in response to bigotry in another country. Sigh. We should also try to avoid the opposite error. “The Swiss are just as bad as the Saudis”. “The West is just as bad as the moslem world”. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/249 "2009-12-01T14:22:42Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Amazing! I never knew Christianity came from Switzerland! I always thought it came from the Middle East. As for Judaism- don’t you remember that for most of history Europe has derided Jews as practicing an alien middle-eastern religion? Christianity has been in Switzerland since the 4th century and has been the predominant religion of Switzerland since the 7th. Judaism has been in the country since at least the 12th century. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/250 "2009-12-01T14:28:26Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > You, on the other hand, are assuming that the Muslims are assimilating at a reasonable rate and aren’t doing anything to provoke or anger their hosts. You’re aware of the gang rapes of European women that Muslim street gangs have been committing all across the continent, right? :rolleyes: Ah, so now they are a bunch of rapists. Do you have any evidence that the typical Muslim in Switzerland is a religious fanatic and rapist? As opposed to being not particularly religious and law abiding? > [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Because, of couse, anyone who disagrees with your enlightened, progressive views must be a hate-filled monster. When they are a bunch of hyper-Christian racist right wing nationalists, yes. Which these are. > [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Yes, it’s always “racist and xenophobic” when whites try to preserve their own communities, isn’t it? This has nothing to do with preserving anything. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/251 "2009-12-01T14:36:17Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > You, on the other hand, are assuming that the Muslims are assimilating at a reasonable rate and aren’t doing anything to provoke or anger their hosts. You’re aware of the gang rapes of European women that Muslim street gangs have been committing all across the continent, right? Is it all that relevant that they’re raping European women? Like, if it was other Muslim women it would be less of a big deal? ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/252 "2009-12-01T14:37:50Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Private or governmental mandated makes little difference for those it happens to as long as the government is unable or unwilling to protect the people from private persecution. Oh, well then obviously any and all unprosecuted hate crimes in Europe must be held as obvious examples of governmental bigotry against immigrants, etc. Fine game that. > [@](#): > > And the government is dysfunctional in many Muslim dominated countries. Charming little dance this, “many Muslim dominated countries” - gives you just a bit of plausible deniability. Of course plenty of Christian “dominated” (really that little verbal dance amuses me) countries with similar characteristics (i.e. poor, emerging countries) are dysfunctional. Why the past 50 years shows Catholic dominance has an average tendency to dictatorship!!! I am unimpressed by your argument by indirect implication. > [@](#): > > Wikipedia has a [freedom of religion in Malaysia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_in_Malaysia) page. While not as bad as many other places, there does seem to be some real issues. Also to do with buildings. Wiki cites on charged subjects are not particularly impressive. > [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > You’re aware of the gang rapes of European women that Muslim street gangs have been committing all across the continent, right? I’m aware that this is a gross exageration spun by the neo-Fascist racialists in Europe, like BNP and its sad ilk. > [@](#): > > Europe has made a huge mistake in allowing large populations of Muslims from North Africa and the Middle East to establish themselves in Europe. The North Africans were positively imported by continental Europe (and Indian Subcon by UK) for labour, nothing “allowed” there > [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Yes, it’s always “racist and xenophobic” when whites try to preserve their own communities, isn’t it? While amusing as an unthinking racist transposition, the majority of Swiss Muslims are in fact white Europeans by birth. Bosniaks, Turks. Of course they seem to un-white themselves by having the “wrong” religion. Rather like another “wrong religion” in the minority in Europe, we know that history… ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/253 "2009-12-01T14:39:31Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Is it all that relevant that they’re raping European women? Like, if it was other Muslim women it would be less of a big deal? Well when the Darkies rape the White Women, the White Man is diminished… Not that a wee lynching can’t set things right. ---
**Author:** ![Dorothea\_Book](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Dorothea\_Book](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorothea_Book)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/254 "2009-12-01T14:49:31Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > One day. And the next. And the next. For all ten months I spent there. The bosses would join in on “the fun.” Those of us with even more “exotic” provenances would try to intervene the first few times we saw it but learn very fast that it accomplished nothing. Whenever a new foreigner joined the team, the bashing would take place in English - it was the only time the Germans and Germanswiss would speak among themselves in English, to make sure we got the message. Once we’d got it, they’d go back to “poking fun at the halfbreed” in German. I am curious if you found the non-German Swiss as ethnocentric. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/255 "2009-12-01T14:54:41Z")
One interesting point is that this referendum was passed through the joint efforts of feminists and conservatives. This coalition has always made sense to me, considering the treatment of women in the Islamic world, yet most western feminists tend to see Muslims as another anti-Western-culture ally, regardless of their own treatment of women. ---
**Author:** ![Dorothea\_Book](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Dorothea\_Book](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorothea_Book)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/256 "2009-12-01T15:00:42Z")
An attempted recap for what it’s worth. I think it has been well established (by numerous posts and by articles like _NYT_’s that the great majority of Swiss Muslims are assimilated with many not even practicing Muslims and with the majority descended from European Muslim locales like Turkey or Bosnia. In a sense this is the irony of the Swiss situation–it doesn’t seem to have been provoked by an actual context of rising Islamic fundamentalism inside Switzerland or by some sensational event. Agreed? **Lochdale** ’s post #229 seems to me like a reasonable account of the kinds of issues that trouble many people in European countries including Switzerland. It might be worth considering those issues before leaping to assume that random events (like rape) are behind the rising Islamophobia in so much of Europe. (I don’t mean that those events don’t have an impact; they clearly do and can be galvanizing. I only mean that there are larger perceptions at stake about what is happening in Europe which have only been touched in in this thread.) ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/257 "2009-12-01T15:06:00Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > One interesting point is that this referendum was passed through the joint efforts of feminists and conservatives. This coalition has always made sense to me, considering the treatment of women in the Islamic world, yet most western feminists tend to see Muslims as another anti-Western-culture ally, regardless of their own treatment of women. How this makes sense escapes me, as punishing women believers for discrimination by male believers by queerly banning minarets does absolutely nothing to advance either Muslim women’s rights or rights in general. ---
**Author:** ![Dorothea\_Book](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Dorothea\_Book](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorothea_Book)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/258 "2009-12-01T15:10:08Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > One interesting point is that this referendum was passed through the joint efforts of feminists and conservatives. This coalition has always made sense to me, considering the treatment of women in the Islamic world, yet most western feminists tend to see Muslims as another anti-Western-culture ally, regardless of their own treatment of women. It’s much more complicated than that **athelas**. First, feminists aren’t “anti-Western-culture” and neither for that matter are the great majority of Muslims living in the West. The feminists who are against the rising anti-immigrant sentiments and against prejudicial referenda like the Swiss ban on minarets are often acting out of principle. They are committed to equal treatment under the law (I would describe myself in this light). Feminists are also aware of how prejudice comes in many forms. They are loathe to pile on a demonized minority or to encourage stereotyping sentiments of any kind (as opposed to understanding, dialogue, tolerance, debate). Finally, feminists have many reasons to distrust conservative political allies. It’s not really a natural alliance at all; more like a pragmatism that is (IMO) ultimately misguided for feminists (and maybe for conservatives too). This doesn’t mean that there aren’t actual tensions between religious fundamentalism and feminist goals of equal treatment for women (and for all people ultimately). It only means that feminists can’t simply check their principles at the door when they become inconvenient. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/259 "2009-12-01T15:20:45Z")
And not all Muslim cultures are oppressive to women. Some of this talk is starting to read like parody. “They put their wimmin in HAREMS with VEILS!” and “They rape white folks!” Blech. ---
**Author:** ![Dorothea\_Book](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Dorothea\_Book](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorothea_Book)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/260 "2009-12-01T15:32:59Z")
Yes, **Freudian Slit** , I ought to have made that more clear in my reply. Not all Muslim cultures are oppressive to women. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366.md?page=14)