# Switzerland bans minarets **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 29, 2009, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366 "2009-11-29T19:19:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Gary\_Baldy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Gary\_Baldy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Baldy)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/21 "2009-11-29T21:37:21Z")
> [@Krokodil](#): > > I should condemn the Swiss for this, but we Americans have been banning mosques and Islamic academies at the county and municipal levels for years. Could you cite an example? I haven’t heard of this happening anywhere in the USA. All searches on Google point to this happening in Europe, none in the USA. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/22 "2009-11-29T21:42:16Z")
You know who else tried expanding into every country but Switzerland? ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/23 "2009-11-29T21:45:06Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > You know who else tried expanding into every country but Switzerland? [del]Microsoft[/del] Disney! ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/24 "2009-11-29T21:48:49Z")
I think there are two reasons for this. One, is purely aesthetic. Switzerland wants to preserve the look and feel that helps define it. Nothing wrong with that. The other thing is the greater numbers of Muslims and how they may change the culture beyond architecture. And I see nothing wrong with that either. The same way I’d see nothing wrong with a city in the middle east or asia wanting to preserve what culturally defines it. I still don’t get why one shouldn’t expect to conform to the new society they’ve moved to. ::shrug:: ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/25 "2009-11-29T21:52:54Z")
The only culture that doesn’t change is a dead culture. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/26 "2009-11-29T21:56:34Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > The only culture that doesn’t change is a dead culture. Wow, man, that’s soooo deep. You blew my mind. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/27 "2009-11-29T22:00:03Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > You know who else tried expanding into every country but Switzerland? Hersey’s ? For good strategic reasons I might add. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/28 "2009-11-29T22:03:46Z")
I think **Mr. Excellent** nailed it. This is going to make Swiss Muslims feel even more marginalised than they probably already do, and far from encouraging them to “conform” as **magellan01** suggests, it’s going to alienate them even further from the majority culture. I’ve seen a few reports from Switzerland that say overt expressions of hostility against Muslims have increased since plans for the referendum were announced; that doesn’t surprise me as a similar thing happened here in Ireland as a result of the citizenship referendum in 2004. Hopefully the Swiss or European courts will show more sense than the voters did. Incidentally, **magellan01** : > [@](#): > > I still don’t get why one shouldn’t expect to conform to the new society they’ve moved to. ::shrug:: You do realise that some of them haven’t moved to any new society, don’t you? Not all Muslims in Switzerland are immigrants. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/29 "2009-11-29T22:07:19Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > I think **Mr. Excellent** nailed it. This is going to make Swiss Muslims feel even more marginalised than they probably already do, and far from encouraging them to “conform” as **magellan01** suggests, it’s going to alienate them even further from the majority culture. That’s the idea, though. It’s to say to Muslims, “We don’t want you in Switzerland. Get out.” ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/30 "2009-11-29T22:07:53Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > Incidentally, **magellan01** : > > You do realise that some of them haven’t moved to any new society, don’t you? Not all Muslims in Switzerland are immigrants. Yes, I’m well aware of the obvious, thank you. The point is that Switzerland has a culture that they have a right to preserve. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/31 "2009-11-29T22:08:36Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I still don’t get why one shouldn’t expect to conform to the new society they’ve moved to. ::shrug:: My earlier point notwithstanding, ever lived overseas? I have. I’ve lived and/or travelled all over the world, and preserved my culture wherever I’ve been. And with vanishingly rare exceptions, I never saw _anyone_ from _any_ western culture conform to the locals’ ways. Sure, I borrowed bits and pieces from the cultures in which I lived, as do my current Muslim neighbors, but largely I carried on in the way that I am used to. And so did every other expatriate I knew. In other words, I suggest you are imposing your self-described incomprehension only on people whose "other"ness is most obvious to you. Would you have suggested that Jewish immigrants fleeing the pogroms in the 19th century should not have built synagogues on their arrival to the New World? ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/32 "2009-11-29T22:09:17Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > They’ve banned minuets? Too many notes, Wolfgang! ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/33 "2009-11-29T22:09:51Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > That’s the idea, though. It’s to say to Muslims, “We don’t want you in Switzerland. Get out.” I don’t think that’s exactly right. I think it’s more, “If you want to change Switzerland, we don’t want you here. Get out.” Again I see nothing wrong with that. No one is keeping them there at gunpoint. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/34 "2009-11-29T22:13:22Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > My earlier point notwithstanding, ever lived overseas? I have. I’ve lived and/or travelled all over the world, and preserved my culture wherever I’ve been. And with vanishingly rare exceptions, I never saw _anyone_ from _any_ western culture conform to the locals’ ways. > > Sure, I borrowed bits and pieces from the cultures in which I lived, as do my current Muslim neighbors, but largely I carried on in the way that I am used to. And so did every other expatriate I knew. > > In other words, I suggest you are imposing your self-described incomprehension only on people whose "other"ness is most obvious to you. > > Would you have suggested that Jewish immigrants fleeing the pogroms in the 19th century should not have built synagogues on their arrival to the New World? There are plenty of things one can do to continue to enjoy their culture in a foreign land, and good for all of them. But if the local populace feel that some of those things conflict with the culture you’ve moved to, I think you are bound to defer to the people’s home you moved to. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/35 "2009-11-29T22:20:20Z")
Let’s see. They are doing something that simultaneously caters to xenophobia, irritates Muslims, doesn’t actually do anything effective against its targets ( so fails even from a ruthless standpoint ), and makes the people they dislike look like victims. Oh, and makes the members of a religion they apparently don’t like feel like victims of persecution; something that has historically proven so very effective against religion. Yup, real clever these Swiss. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/36 "2009-11-29T22:23:27Z")
Demanding that everyone act alike goes _against_ the western liberal tradition. And I hardly think the faith that produced the Taj Mahal is guaranteed to make a neighborhood eyesore. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/37 "2009-11-29T22:27:16Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Let’s see. They are doing something that simultaneously caters to xenophobia, irritates Muslims, doesn’t actually do anything effective against its targets ( so fails even from a ruthless standpoint ), and makes the people they dislike look like victims. > > Oh, and makes the members of a religion they apparently don’t like feel like victims of persecution; something that has historically proven so very effective against religion. Yup, real clever these Swiss. :rolleyes: Heh, and here’s **Der Trihs** , who would be at the head of the anti-sky-fairy brigade if this was an anti-Christian law in the US. You seem to be claiming that extremism and terrorism will increase in Switzerland because of this move. I disagree. If you’re a Muslim pondering a move to Europe, why not move to France or Sweden (which have large and domestically troublesome Muslim populations already) rather than a country that demonstrates mild hostility to your faith? This may look bad in the short term but in the long demographic timescale I think this will end up redirecting Muslim immigration to other European countries. (Which is kind of a cheap trick from the point of view of the other countries, but an effective one.) If you disagree though feel free to go on the record predicting an increase in Muslim extremism in Switzerland relative to other countries. State a timescale and indicators, please. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/38 "2009-11-29T22:42:46Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > Heh, and here’s **Der Trihs** , who would be at the head of the anti-sky-fairy brigade if this was an anti-Christian law in the US. :rolleyes: Don’t be ridiculous. I despise all religions, including Islam. But I’ve also never supported attempting to ban or persecute them, much less a particular one in favor of others. > [@athelas](#): > > You seem to be claiming that extremism and terrorism will increase in Switzerland because of this move. I disagree. If you’re a Muslim pondering a move to Europe, why not move to France or Sweden (which have large and domestically troublesome Muslim populations already) rather than a country that demonstrates mild hostility to your faith? Because it helps promote the faith by engaging in ineffective persecution; the sort of thing a religion thrives under. And I didn’t say a thing about “extremism and terrorism”; you are conflating those with Islam in general. You don’t need to be an extremist Muslim to find an obvious slap in the face like this obnoxious. How would Christians feel if church steeples were outlawed? Would it only be Christian extremists and terrorists who were offended? > [@athelas](#): > > If you disagree though feel free to go on the record predicting an increase in Muslim extremism in Switzerland relative to other countries. State a timescale and indicators, please. Ah, and I’m supposed to be a prophet now? And how do you know that any increased hostility will be confined to Switzerland, and not generalized to all of Europe or Christianity or the West or whatever else is perceived as the cause? ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/39 "2009-11-29T22:46:08Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Yes, I’m well aware of the obvious, thank you. Well, you continue to portray this as an issue of people bringing their culture to a foreign land. I’m going to take it from that that you think Swiss-born Muslims are entitled to build minarets. If you don’t, then you’ll have to come up with a better argument than that immigrants should adapt to their new country. > [@](#): > > The point is that Switzerland has a culture that they have a right to preserve I presume you mean the Swiss people, since countries don’t have rights. But I can’t find “the right to preserve your country’s culture from any changes that you don’t happen to like” in any human rights instrument. Perhaps you could point it out to me. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/40 "2009-11-29T22:51:22Z")
> [@Gary\_Baldy](#): > > Could you cite an example? I haven’t heard of this happening anywhere in the USA. All searches on Google point to this happening in Europe, none in the USA. These are all in the Washington, DC area. An Islamic school in Fairfax VA has been trying to expand, and met resistance from local citizen groups, as per these two websites: [http://www.redcounty.com/islamic-saudi-academy-county-and-school-hate?taxonomy=3](http://www.redcounty.com/islamic-saudi-academy-county-and-school-hate?taxonomy=3) > **[Islamic indoctrination and favoritism in schools](http://www.akdart.com/islam4.html)** Mosques in Montgomery and Frederick county MD similarly get blocked; here’s one from Frederick: [http://www.fredericknewspost.com/sections/news/display\_Comments.htm?section=dailyUpdate&storyID=70603](http://www.fredericknewspost.com/sections/news/display_Comments.htm?section=dailyUpdate&storyID=70603) The feds seized a mosque in Rockville: [http://rockvillecentral.com/2009/11/mosque-seized-by-justice-department.html/](http://rockvillecentral.com/2009/11/mosque-seized-by-justice-department.html/) It can and does happen here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366.md?page=3)