# Switzerland bans minarets **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 29, 2009, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366 "2009-11-29T19:19:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/101 "2009-11-30T02:53:26Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Frankly, I have trouble believing you think this is some sort of aesthetic zoning ordinance that just happens to cover the whole country and involves a constitutional referenda. He’s using the same tactics he has with his opposition to single sex marriage; pretending that the issue is all about protecting a culture ( this case ) or a word ( SSM ). And not about a bunch of prejudiced people trying to hurt the people they are prejudiced against. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/102 "2009-11-30T02:58:07Z")
> [@Krokodil](#): > > Either the buildings themselves are all sacred and off-limits to law enforcement, or none of them is. In point of fact, none of those buildings is off-limits to law enforcement. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/103 "2009-11-30T03:03:27Z")
Anybody know how the Swiss legislation defines “minaret” or “call to prayer”? What if a group of Muslims either built a mosque that was externally identical to a local church (replacing the Cross with a Cresent) or simply purchased an existing church? Is the tall think sticking out of the church a steeple or a minaret? What if instead of announcing prayers over a loudspeaker they ring a large bell at prayer time? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Baldy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Gary\_Baldy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Baldy)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/104 "2009-11-30T03:14:39Z")
> [@Krokodil](#): > > Okay, to take your questions in order: > > Yes. > > I had numerous conversations with local residents about this hearing, and two things they didn’t mention were Wal-Mart and a concern for Maryland’s family farms. Please don’t pretend that an anti-Islamic bias can’t be at work here. > > Muslims in the area just don’t like being held to a different standard. Seizing a place of worship is a pretty drastic step, and they feel like a few Lutheran churches should go down before one of theirs gets seized. Either the buildings themselves are all sacred and off-limits to law enforcement, or none of them is. So the locals didn’t mention Wal-Mart, but that doesn’t negate the fact that the land was zoned for farmland. Also, I completely argee with you that Lutheran churches should be seized by the federal government is those churches are laundering money to Iran. If that seems farfetched to you, how about seizing Catholic churches laundering money to the mafia? ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/105 "2009-11-30T03:33:21Z")
So mosques with no minarets are better because you cannot send money abroad? Of course the Swiss of all people taking exception to moving money around is laughable on the face of it. What shall we do about the Catholic churches that launder money for the Pope? The Orthodox churches that launder money for Moscow? Perhaps if we forced them to build their churches a certain way they too could be prevented from sending money places we do not like? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/106 "2009-11-30T03:33:22Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > He’s using the same tactics he has with his opposition to single sex marriage; pretending that the issue is all about protecting a culture ( this case ) or a word ( SSM ). And not about a bunch of prejudiced people trying to hurt the people they are prejudiced against. Still, it has dawned on you that I favor protecting an existing culture? Even, as I’ve pointed out twice, Muslim ones on the middle east. Am I surprised you missed arriving at such a logical conclusion? Not in the least. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/107 "2009-11-30T03:37:35Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > The McDonalds building and gas station shown in the flicker links were hardly bland (indeed, their garish eye-catching colors by design). Frankly, I have trouble believing you think this is some sort of aesthetic zoning ordinance that just happens to cover the whole country and involves a constitutional referenda. How many other architectural bans are codified in the Swiss constitution? I don’t know. But they are free to restrict the architecture as they see fit. Mosques, McDonald’s, it’s up to them. > [@Simplicio](#): > > Plus, as also noted above, the Swiss were hardly facing some huge plague of gigantic Minarets in their cities. There are four in the whole country, and the two we could find pictures of were relatively small and one appeared to have been designed to look vaguely steeple like. Well, they made an attempt. I thought the steeple-like one was a nice attempt. But this is up to the people of Switzerland. And good for them for taking action now, before they “plague” the picturesque country. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/108 "2009-11-30T03:39:42Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Still, it has dawned on you that I favor protecting an existing culture? No; I don’t believe for a moment that is your motivation; any more than it is the motive of the people supporting this law ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/109 "2009-11-30T03:40:57Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > There are two types of “violations”, if you will. One is an architectural style that doe not add the the current one. For instance, just a plain warehouse or an ordinary high-rise office building. The other type not only does not add to the existing aesthetic, but actively moves it in another direction. The minarets fall into the latter category, making it more worthy of concern (if one is so inclined) than just a bland building. Well, what about [modern and postmodern architecture, which is quite common in Switzerland](http://www.mimoa.nl/browse/projects/Switzerland)? Modern architecture is really pulling the Swiss collective architectural aesthetic into a radically different direction, away from the [traditional “mountain yodeler” timber-framed style](http://aircrafter.org/boggs/europe_trip/pictures/2003.08.12-20.02.55_pic.jpg) into something that is more Scandinavian than Franco-Teutonic. Do a Google image search for “[Swiss architecture](http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&um=1&sa=1&q=swiss+architecture&btnG=Search+images&aq=f&oq=&aqi=&start=0)”. You’ll find as much, if not more pomo than yodel-lay-hee-hoo. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/110 "2009-11-30T03:43:16Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > This is why the government shouldn’t get involved in religion. Be thankful for the 1st Amendment, America. The “government” in this case being the voters. It’s a direct democracy, their “government officers” aren’t decision-makers. In Switzerland, people have to vote on things like “does the town’s casino, which is an emblematic building, get to repaint?” (followed by “what color”). That was a ballot question during the time I lived in Basel. There’s places where the voters meet once a year and others where there’s a ballot every Saturday. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/111 "2009-11-30T03:45:18Z")
> [@elmwood](#): > > Well, what about [modern and postmodern architecture, which is quite common in Switzerland](http://www.mimoa.nl/browse/projects/Switzerland)? Modern architecture is really pulling the Swiss collective architectural aesthetic into a radically different direction, away from the [traditional “mountain yodeler” timber-framed style](http://aircrafter.org/boggs/europe_trip/pictures/2003.08.12-20.02.55_pic.jpg) into something that is more Scandinavian than Franco-Teutonic. > > Do a Google image search for “[Swiss architecture](http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&um=1&sa=1&q=swiss+architecture&btnG=Search+images&aq=f&oq=&aqi=&start=0)”. You’ll find as much, if not more pomo than yodel-lay-hee-hoo. See Post #98. It is up to the Swiss people to determine which architecture to promote, which is acceptable, and which they’d like to discourage or ban. ---
**Author:** ![Svejk\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@Svejk\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svejk_1)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/112 "2009-11-30T03:46:48Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > Anybody know how the Swiss legislation defines “minaret” or “call to prayer”? What if a group of Muslims either built a mosque that was externally identical to a local church (replacing the Cross with a Cresent) or simply purchased an existing church? Is the tall think sticking out of the church a steeple or a minaret? What if instead of announcing prayers over a loudspeaker they ring a large bell at prayer time? The referendum ballot required a yes or no as to whether the Swiss constitution should be changed to include article 72.3.: “The building of minarets is forbidden”, in the section on the relation between church and state ([link](http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kontroverse_um_den_Bau_von_Minaretten_in_der_Schweiz#Eidgen.C3.B6ssische_Volksinitiative_.C2.ABGegen_den_Bau_von_Minaretten.C2.BB)). I suppose that it is up to the judiciary to actually decide on what is and is not a minaret, I can’t see what other source in the law there is at this point. as a point of interest, I’ll mention that the wikipedia site in the link above (which is in German, unfortunately) discusses how referenda concerning questions that jeopardize certain fundamental rights grounded in the Swiss constitution are void; an argument was made here, however, that this particular referendum does not relate to religion as such, but rather one aspect (and an alienable one, so it is argued) of the building in which worship of said religion takes place. ---
**Author:** ![Dorothea\_Book](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Dorothea\_Book](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorothea_Book)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/113 "2009-11-30T03:56:51Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No; I don’t believe for a moment that is your motivation; any more than it is the motive of the people supporting this law Why not **Der Trihs**? I completely believe him. When **magellan01** says that he favors “protecting an existing culture” I think he is being honest about how he sees his views. What he doesn’t acknowledge or notice, however, is that he favors protecting an existing _majority_ culture against an existing _minority_ culture. He thinks he’s on solid moral ground because he’s willing to see majority cultures protected where ever they are found. He doesn’t care if Middle East Muslims discriminate against other religions because he would like to a kind of quid pro quo in which Western countries like Switzerland (countries in which the majority of people are either Christian or secular) may then (presumably in good conscience) discriminate against a minority religion–as 57% of the Swiss electorate has now voted to do. There is nothing inconsistent about **magellan01** ’s position; it’s just deeply undemocratic and illiberal. He’s endorsing the principle that it’s fine for the majority to tyrannize and discriminate (in the name of culture) so long as the same right is granted to any majority within their own national borders. I believe he is sincere; and I believe his views are much more dangerous than he may realize. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/114 "2009-11-30T04:04:34Z")
> [@Dorothea\_Book](#): > > Why not **Der Trihs**? I completely believe him. Because it’s a position he claims no matter how baseless or incoherent it is. Judging from his performance in threads on SSM, he’ll use whatever definition of “preserving Swiss culture” he can, as long as it excuses slapping Muslims. He’s already squirming around in this thread; dismissing other buildings that remain unbanned as not really counting as “non-traditional”. Bottom line; I don’t regard his “defense of tradition” as anything but an excuse. ---
**Author:** ![Dorothea\_Book](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Dorothea\_Book](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorothea_Book)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/115 "2009-11-30T04:17:20Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Because it’s a position he claims no matter how baseless or incoherent it is. Judging from his performance in threads on SSM, he’ll use whatever definition of “preserving Swiss culture” he can, as long as it excuses slapping Muslims. He’s already squirming around in this thread; dismissing other buildings that remain unbanned as not really counting as “non-traditional”. > > Bottom line; I don’t regard his “defense of tradition” as anything but an excuse. It may be his M.O. but what does it actually excuse? Trying to use the power of the state to privilege one cultural tradition over another is, as I said, deeply illiberal. His “excuse,” as you call it, is a form of state-sanctioned ethnocentrism. And like all state-sanctioned forms of privilege, it can result in state-sanctioned racism (or other kinds of prejudice). So if what you’re trying to say is that state-sanctioned traditionalism = state-sanctioned ethnocentrism = (depending on context) state-sanctioned racism/ homophobia/religious intolerance you are probably right. But isn’t that patently evident? The “excuse”, in other words, is no excuse at all… ---
**Author:** ![eenerms](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/cdc98d/32.png) [@eenerms](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eenerms)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/116 "2009-11-30T04:27:34Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Ask me when ANY muslim country allows Christian churches to be built. There is a Catholic Church (new building) in Doha, Qatar. Opened last year. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/117 "2009-11-30T04:44:02Z")
> [@Dorothea\_Book](#): > > It may be his M.O. but what does it actually excuse? Nothing, really. I didn’t say it was a good excuse. ---
**Author:** ![Dorothea\_Book](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Dorothea\_Book](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorothea_Book)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/118 "2009-11-30T04:56:59Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Nothing, really. I didn’t say it was a good excuse. Fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/119 "2009-11-30T06:15:34Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I don’t get it..the Swiss are saying to immigrants:" we like our country the way it is"-what is wrong with this? \*\*Ask me when ANY muslim country allows Christian churches to be built.\*\*The muslims seem to be hypocritical-they want freedom for their religious beliefs, but they don’t want the same freedom extended to others. Ad to that, their insane reactions when they think their religion has been insulted (ask the Danes). Well I am asking you [now](http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=402815). ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366/120 "2009-11-30T06:31:28Z")
Just a few facts to help keep this dialogue on track: Switzerland promotes religious freedom, but “separation of church and state” is not an argument there. The concept as an official policy was overwhelmingly rejected as recently as 1980. Switzerland as a whole has no state religion, but all but two of the 26 cantons recognize official churches (the Roman Catholic and Swiss Reformed churches in all of those cantons, plus Jewish and Old Catholic (called Christian Catholic in Switzerland) congregations in some), which are funded with taxes. Switzerland is extremely conservative about its culture. It’s harder to become a naturalized citizen than any other European country (I think - this varies by community, believe it or not), and there are requirements about adopting Swiss culture; this is not unique, but again, it’s more strict than in other countries. I’m not sure exactly how they judge this integration, though, so it may not be so bad everywhere. What this means, though, is that Muslims moving to Switzerland are unlikely to become citizens; they’d have to give up their way of life. And since being born in Switzerland doesn’t mean jack, their children must face the decision if they don’t. So you’re unlikely to see a significant Muslim voting bloc for a good long while, if ever. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-bans-minarets/519366.md?page=7)