# Switzerland shows its true colors - **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 12, 2010, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383 "2010-07-12T13:09:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/181 "2010-07-14T15:07:09Z")
> [@](#): > > Yeah, I notice it. I notice there’s no handwringing thread, populated by stupid twats like Paul, on the Iranian nuclear scientist kidnapped by the CIA that’s just turned up, for instance. As I said, to an American, morality only seems to work one way. As a group, Americans are only too quick to bring the actions of other countries under a microscope, conveniently forgetting their own failures to extradite criminals and the shady activities of their own government, forever justified under the pretense of “national interest”, or “national defence”. What a fucking crybaby. While this may be true in some cases, none of it has a goddamn thing to do with Polanski. Also, how broad is that brush you’re painting with? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/182 "2010-07-14T15:07:48Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Of course it’s relevant. An extradition hearing is an adversarial hearing, just like an ordinary criminal trial. It just doesn’t go as far. No, it isn’t. In an ordinary adversarial hearing, parties ask courts to unseal documents all the time. If the court refuses, because the document is declared “irrelevant”, that party _cannot then argue an adverse inference_ that, because the document was not unsealed, it _must actually be relevant!_. In particular, an ordinary court would not _itself_ declare failure to produce a document _it itself has declared irrelevant and unnecessary_ entitles the other party to some form of relief! That it should is positively Kafka-esque. ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/183 "2010-07-14T15:13:54Z")
I wish some bounty hunter would knock this scumbag out and drag him back to the US, like what was attempted on Ronnie Biggs, the train robber. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/184 "2010-07-14T15:18:20Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > No, it isn’t. > > In an ordinary adversarial hearing, parties ask courts to unseal documents all the time. If the court refuses, because the document is declared “irrelevant”, that party _cannot then argue an adverse inference_ that, because the document was not unsealed, it _must actually be relevant!_. > > In particular, an ordinary court would not _itself_ declare failure to produce a document _it itself has declared irrelevant and unnecessary_ entitles the other party to some form of relief! > > That it should is positively Kafka-esque. The court in Switzerland may not be refusing. What is happening is that a court in a completely different country is refusing and thus impacting the case in Switzerland. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/185 "2010-07-14T15:36:44Z")
Giving a victim the power to say “Don’t prosecute” creates problems: 1. The victim may want to stop the prosecution for reasons that have nothing to do with the guilt of the accused. For example, to avoid media attention or public embarrassment. 2. Society has an interest (apart from the interest of the victim) is seeing that the crime is punished, both to deter the perpetrator from future misconduct and to act as a general deterrent to others similarly situated. Otherwise you risk engendering the mindset, “Well yeah, it’s technically a crime, but it never gets prosecuted.” 3. Allowing the victim to make the decision invites corruption of the system via cash payoffs to victims. In which event the wealthy are able to escape punishment. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/186 "2010-07-14T15:47:41Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > The court in Switzerland may not be refusing. What is happening is that a court in a completely different country is refusing and thus impacting the case in Switzerland. Read the second paragraph. In this case, the court in the US based its decision on a declaration from the Swiss authorities that the document was irrelevant to the Swiss proceeding. The allegation appears to be that the US Court should have ignored what the Swiss officials had to say about their own procedure and produced it anyway (?!). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/187 "2010-07-14T16:00:41Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Read the second paragraph. In this case, the court in the US based its decision on a declaration from the Swiss authorities that the document was irrelevant to the Swiss proceeding. I think you are assuming facts not in evidence here. I see where the Swiss originally declared that the document was irrelevant, and where the CA judge refused to unseal it, but I don’t see anything that says the second was the result of the first, other than your own contention. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/188 "2010-07-14T16:13:38Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Of course it was easy, after all you did it. But isn’t it remarkable that when asked to mention something did against their own self-interest, for the sake of morality, you had to point out a couple of refugees taken, with the encouragement of the United States? That’s it? > > Really, come on, is that the best you can find? A whole county? Over say the last fifty years? A couple of refugees? Pretty pathetic for a country, don’t you think? What the _fuck_ are you talking about? You asked “Can you think of any example of the Swiss government behaving ethically on any issue?” (the implication being Switzerland never does anything moral). To meet the challenge, I had to find a single example. I did. Do you honestly think I’ve got time to pose a full fucking survey of the international activities of Switzerland over the last century to placate some moron on the Internet? Do you even know where you’re going with this anyway? What’s your point? Or are your posts just a product of random keyboard bashing with your mouth stick? ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/189 "2010-07-14T16:20:16Z")
My point is that the Swiss are an especially nasty government. (I wonder what the balance is between Swiss foreign aid going out and despots making secret deposits?) ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/190 "2010-07-14T16:46:46Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Read the second paragraph. In this case, the court in the US based its decision on a declaration from the Swiss authorities that the document was irrelevant to the Swiss proceeding. > > The allegation appears to be that the US Court should have ignored what the Swiss officials had to say about their own procedure and produced it anyway (?!). The transcript has been sealed for 33 years. The judge only “noted that Swiss officials had ruled the transcripts were “irrelevant”” whereas “Polanski’s lawyer Chad Hummel argued Roger Gunson’s testimony could help Swiss authorities to decide whether or not to extradite Polanski”. The US did not “base its decision” on it. Again, one has to wonder what is so important in this transcript that it has remained sealed for 33 years and will continue to do so. Again I put it to you that it is because the transcript backs up Polanski’s reasoning for fleeing the US, which would harm the case for him being extradited to the US. But until that transcript is unsealed we will never know. > **[BBC News - Polanski testimony remains secret](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/8675126.stm)** > > A judge rules that secret testimony given by the original prosecutor in Roman Polanski's sex case 33 years ago will remain sealed. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/191 "2010-07-14T16:48:15Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > My point is that the Swiss are an especially nasty government. > > (I wonder what the balance is between Swiss foreign aid going out and despots making secret deposits?) Says the guy in Saudi Arabia trying to defend the views of the authorities in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/192 "2010-07-14T16:55:14Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > My point is that the Swiss are an especially nasty government. Why, because they took Nazi gold? Is that worse than the US systematically overthrowing the democratically elected governments of other countries because they won’t let us build airbases? ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/193 "2010-07-14T16:55:30Z")
You do know what I am doing here, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/194 "2010-07-14T16:55:34Z")
If I were Polanski I’d sell that place in Switzerland and get back to France ASAP and never leave again. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/195 "2010-07-14T16:55:36Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > My point is that the Swiss are an especially nasty government. I’m wondering what your frame of reference is. Here is a list of [UN Member States](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_member_states#Current_members). Of the approx. 200 on the list, which ones are less nasty than Switzerland? What examples do you have of those nations acting against their self-interest? ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/196 "2010-07-14T16:56:34Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > You do know what I am doing here, don’t you? Making a dick of yourself on the internet, apparently. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/197 "2010-07-14T17:04:23Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Why, because they took Nazi gold? Is that worse than the US systematically overthrowing the democratically elected governments of other countries because they won’t let us build airbases? No, I would suppose what really makes them evil would be them handing children over to the Nazis. Then of course there is the keeping of the Jew’s gold for themselves. (They did fight a good fight against any return of any of that money.) Also the acres of money stolen by various dictators from poor people that has historically poured into Swiss banks. Then there is the Swiss policy of allowing their banks to help people hide their money from taxes, for a profit of course. Let us not discount their views toward crazy ideas like letting women vote. And of course we have their recent vote to prohibit minarets. (Does any other country in the world do that?) Other than that, I have nothing much against the Swiss. Lovely people, great place. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/198 "2010-07-14T17:10:34Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > No, I would suppose what really makes them evil would be them handing children over to the Nazis. As opposed to the thousands upon thousands of children killed by the likes of the US and UK in various wars? ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/199 "2010-07-14T17:12:39Z")
Yes, as opposed to that. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/200 "2010-07-14T17:15:22Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Yes, as opposed to that. Sorry, are you saying that the Swiss are less or more evil than war-mongering countries like the UK and US? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383.md?page=11)