# Switzerland shows its true colors - **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 12, 2010, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383 "2010-07-12T13:09:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/221 "2010-07-14T19:05:50Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I think you are assuming facts not in evidence here. I see where the Swiss originally declared that the document was irrelevant, and where the CA judge refused to unseal it, but I don’t see anything that says the second was the result of the first, other than your own contention. See post 59, this thread. For convenience reproduced here: > **[California judge refuses to unseal original prosecutor’s testimony in Roman...](https://crimewatch.gaeatimes.com/2010/05/10/california-judge-refuses-to-unseal-original-prosecutors-testimony-in-roman-polanski-sex-case-27153/)** > > Judge refuses to unseal testimony in Polanski case > [@](#): > > He argued that Swiss authorities should have the testimony to assist in their decision whether to extradite Polanski who is under house arrest in Geneva. > > **But the judge noted in a written ruling that Swiss Justice Ministry officials aid the transcripts “are irrelevant for the extradition proceedings.”** Emphasis added. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/222 "2010-07-14T19:35:48Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > I don’t know whether Switzerland is a Bad Place. There are an awful lot of people there, and it might take a while to interview them all. But yes, refusing to extradite Polanski for a violent crime he has been convicted of in a country with whom Switzerland has an extradition treaty, is Bad. Very Bad. Evil, you might say. > > \ > > I must once again point out that, as a 40+ year old man, he coerced and drugged a 13 year old girl, then raped her vaginally, orally, and anally, pled down to a much lesser, puffball charge, and then couldn’t even finish his 90 measly days in psych before skipping the country. He’s a violent offender who never completed his sentence, and he should, if there is one ounce of justice in this whole world, be extradited. So are is the California State Attorney’s office Very Bad or Evil for not bothering to pursue extradition proceedings for the last 15 years? So he should be extradited because he did a _really_ naughty thing, but it might be okay if he did a moderately or slightly naughty thing? ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/223 "2010-07-14T19:37:46Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > So are is the California State Attorney’s office Very Bad or Evil for not bothering to pursue extradition proceedings for the last 15 years? I don’t know. It doesn’t matter, though, because 15 years ago or today, Roman Polanski is still a violent offender. > [@](#): > > So he should be extradited because he did a _really_ naughty thing, but it might be okay if he did a moderately or slightly naughty thing? Are these supposed to be my words? He’s a violent felon and an escaped convict. Rape. Not statutory rape. He coerced a little girl, drugged her, and then raped her. I don’t know what you’re getting at with your “moderately or slightly naughty thing.” I don’t care, because there’s nothing like that in evidence. ---
**Author:** ![bucketybuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@bucketybuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bucketybuck)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/224 "2010-07-14T19:45:26Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > I must once again point out that, as a 40+ year old man, he coerced and drugged a 13 year old girl, then raped her vaginally, orally, and anally Why do you keep pointing this out? Everybody already knows it? Are you titillated by the thought, and want others to discuss it in more detail with you? How many times will you say the same thing? ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/225 "2010-07-14T19:47:48Z")
> [@bucketybuck](#): > > Why do you keep pointing this out? Everybody already knows it? Are you titillated by the thought, and want others to discuss it in more detail with you? > > How many times will you say the same thing? As many times as it takes people to stop trying to argue false, or to be more accurate, irrelevant, equivalencies. And because, for all the bullshit political analysis and hand-waving, it’s the absolute heart of the matter. There’s no covering it up with verbiage. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/226 "2010-07-14T19:49:28Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t know. It doesn’t matter, though, because 15 years ago or today, Roman Polanski is still a violent offender. Of course it matters. People are slinging feces at the Swiss for declining to get involved in a squabble between two other countries. Why aren’t people pissed at the state attorneys who let him go for this long? > [@](#): > > I don’t know what you’re getting at with your “moderately or slightly naughty thing.” I don’t care, because there’s nothing like that in evidence. What I’m getting that is that you are repeating his crime as though it means something. Your earlier post implied that this is a matter of principle, but your argument is that extraditing Polanski was a moral imperative because he raped a little girl rather than some other crime. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/227 "2010-07-14T19:52:01Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Of course it matters. People are slinging feces at the Swiss for declining to get involved in a squabble between two other countries. Why aren’t people pissed at the state attorneys who let him go for this long? I have no idea, and it doesn’t matter. > [@](#): > > What I’m getting that is that you are repeating his crime as though it means something. Your earlier post implied that this is a matter of principle, but your argument is that extraditing Polanski was a moral imperative because he raped a little girl rather than some other crime. It’s both, of course. He raped her, then violated his (extremely light) sentence. He’s in the wrong for doing so, and there’s a legal principle involved as well. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/228 "2010-07-14T19:57:56Z")
> [@](#): > > I have no idea, and it doesn’t matter. Clearly, it does matter, because there is a thread about the Swiss, which you are participating in, and there isn’t a thread about anyone else (except Polanski himself). > [@](#): > > It’s both, of course. He raped her, then violated his (extremely light) sentence. He’s in the wrong for doing so, and there’s a legal principle involved as well. He had not been sentenced at the time he fled; he didn’t violate any sentence. He was ordered by the court to attend 90 days of psychiatric evaluation, which is not a custodial sentence. He violated the conditions of his _bail_. What legal principle is that? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/229 "2010-07-14T20:01:13Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > But yes, refusing to extradite Polanski for a violent crime he has been convicted of in a country with whom Switzerland has an extradition treaty, is Bad. Very Bad. What’s bad, very bad, is your assertion (over and over again) that the rape was “violent”, as well as your assertion that he was convicted of a violent crime. Neither are correct. Polanski gave the young girl some champagne (which, speaking in terms of alcohol effect is pretty weak sauce), a Quaalude, and by virtue of his adult status and superior size forced himself upon the girl. But he didn’t hit her, he didn’t kick her, he didn’t grab her by the hair and yank her into the bedroom. He forced himself upon her by virtue of his adult status and large size, and then ejaculated into her anus as a birth control measure. I doubt that much penetration was involved, and therefore much of the pain one might expect from forceful anal rape would not be involved. And he wasn’t convicted of a violent crime. He pled guilty to one count of unlawful sexual intercourse. I hate it when you make me post stuff that sounds like I’m defending him, but facts is facts, and the fact is that there’s nothing in Samanta Geimer’s testimony to support the allegation of violent rape, at least not in the way that most people would think of it, and it’s undeniable that Polanski was not convicted of a violent crime. The things you’re saying are simply not true. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/230 "2010-07-14T20:04:40Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Clearly, it does matter, because there is a thread about the Swiss, which you are participating in, and there isn’t a thread about anyone else (except Polanski himself). It doesn’t matter. I have no opinions on the LA prosecutor’s motives, other than that justice has obviously been long delayed, and looks to be delayed again, because of Switzerland’s obstructionism. > [@](#): > > He had not been sentenced at the time he fled; he didn’t violate any sentence. He was ordered by the court to attend 90 days of psychiatric evaluation, which is not a custodial sentence. > > He violated the conditions of his _bail_. Ah yes. My apologies. Not that it matters, since you are no more free to skip out on your sentencing than you are to to flee afterward. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/231 "2010-07-14T20:05:49Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > What’s bad, very bad, is your assertion (over and over again) that the rape was “violent”, as well as your assertion that he was convicted of a violent crime. Neither are correct. > > Polanski gave the young girl some champagne (which, speaking in terms of alcohol effect is pretty weak sauce), a Quaalude, and by virtue of his adult status and superior size forced himself upon the girl. But he didn’t hit her, he didn’t kick her, he didn’t grab her by the hair and yank her into the bedroom. He forced himself upon her by virtue of his adult status and large size, and then ejaculated into her anus as a birth control measure. I doubt that much penetration was involved, and therefore much of the pain one might expect from forceful anal rape would not be involved. > > And he wasn’t convicted of a violent crime. He pled guilty to one count of unlawful sexual intercourse. > > I hate it when you make me post stuff that sounds like I’m defending him, but facts is facts, and the fact is that there’s nothing in Samanta Geimer’s testimony to support the allegation of violent rape, at least not in the way that most people would think of it, and it’s undeniable that Polanski was not convicted of a violent crime. The things you’re saying are simply not true. Have you completely taken leave of your senses? She protested. He forced himself on her. That’s the very definition of violent. You wouldn’t consider somebody shoving something into your rectum against your will violent? Are you absolutely insane? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/232 "2010-07-14T20:10:45Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > It doesn’t matter. I have no opinions on the LA prosecutor’s motives, other than that justice has obviously been long delayed, and looks to be delayed again, because of Switzerland’s obstructionism. Ah, but there is a _matter of legal principle_ at stake! You know that the extradition treaty (like most) specifically excludes political and military prosecutions, right? I don’t know about you, but reopening this case 20 years after the last attempt to extradite him smells awfully political to me, especially when the victim has officially requested that the matter be dropped. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/233 "2010-07-14T20:13:51Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Are these supposed to be my words? He’s a violent felon and an escaped convict. Rape. Not statutory rape. He coerced a little girl, drugged her, and then raped her. I don’t know what you’re getting at with your “moderately or slightly naughty thing.” I don’t care, because there’s nothing like that in evidence. You know what? What he did is irrelevant, because however heinous his crime, the rule of law is still more important. If Switzerland is violating the treaty by not extraditing him, then they are in the wrong. If the US did not have its ducks in a row, then Swtizerland was right not to extradite. If Switzerland is not permitted under its law to extradite someone in this situation, then they did the right thing. Maybe that law needs changing, but it shouldn’t be ignored. And hearing the US lecture about extradition of major criminals to allied countries rings a little hollow to most British people I know, given that IRA murderers have been allowed to walk US streets with impunity. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/234 "2010-07-14T20:24:13Z")
> [@villa](#): > > And hearing the US lecture about extradition of major criminals to allied countries rings a little hollow to most British people I know, given that IRA murderers have been allowed to walk US streets with impunity. I’m sorry, I will be completely silent until I personally correct each and every wrong my country has ever done. It’s only fair, right? ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/235 "2010-07-14T20:33:21Z")
That’s exactly what I was requiring, dipshit. :rolleyes: When the OP criticizes Switzerland as a country for this single act of failing to extradite someone the OP decides should be extradited, don’t you think it is somewhat relevant to the situation that the US has historically refused to extradite murderers back to a country it considers to be a close ally? Isn’t that in some way relevant to the degree of outrage? ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/236 "2010-07-14T20:53:50Z")
> [@villa](#): > > That’s exactly what I was requiring, dipshit. :rolleyes: > > When the OP criticizes Switzerland as a country for this single act of failing to extradite someone the OP decides should be extradited, don’t you think it is somewhat relevant to the situation that the US has historically refused to extradite murderers back to a country it considers to be a close ally? Isn’t that in some way relevant to the degree of outrage? I continue to be amazed at the propensity for false equivalence around here. OF COURSE IRA murderers should be extradited back to the UK. If they haven’t been, and there is a legal international warrant out for them, then they absolutely should be. That in no way means that Polanski should NOT be extradited to the US. I mean, wtf? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/237 "2010-07-14T20:57:22Z")
There is no such thing as a “legal international warrant”. Interpol occasionally files Red Notices, which are _requests_ for countries to arrest specific individuals, but those are not warrants. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/238 "2010-07-14T21:07:26Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > I don’t know. It doesn’t matter, though, because 15 years ago or today, Roman Polanski is still a violent offender. > > Are these supposed to be my words? He’s a violent felon and an escaped convict. Rape. Not statutory rape. He coerced a little girl, drugged her, and then raped her. I don’t know what you’re getting at with your “moderately or slightly naughty thing.” I don’t care, because there’s nothing like that in evidence. According to Polanski it was consentual sex. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/239 "2010-07-14T21:08:36Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > There is no such thing as a “legal international warrant”. Interpol occasionally files Red Notices, which are _requests_ for countries to arrest specific individuals, but those are not warrants. When in doubt, the semantic argument will bury 'em, even if it’s already been pretty well established that Switzerland torpedoed the US warrant intentionally by requesting that the US withhold information, and then claiming that extradition was impossible without the aforementioned information. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/240 "2010-07-14T21:10:39Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > According to Polanski it was consentual sex. Just because it was also statutory rape does not mean that it wasn’t also violent rape. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383.md?page=13)