# Switzerland shows its true colors - **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 12, 2010, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383 "2010-07-12T13:09:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/81 "2010-07-12T23:31:56Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Thanks, darling. Just pointing out the obvious, really. Don’t mention it. By the way, might you have a 13-year-old daughter or niece? ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/82 "2010-07-12T23:32:20Z")
> [@Rysto](#): > > You know what? You’re exactly right. _Fuck_ their reservations. The man is a fucking rapist and why they feel the need to throw their lot in with him I’ll never understand. According to the U.S. Why is it that they or anyone else should trust the U.S. legal system? And keep in mind that Europe isn’t as big on the [age of consent thing](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/Age_of_Consent.png) as the U.S. is - although it’s 16 in Switzerland most of its neighbors, including Germany, Austria, and Italy set 14 as the age of consent. In nearby Spain it’s 13. I don’t know any of the details about the drugging and whatnot but over there if the case was looked at on the basis of age alone it wouldn’t have been hardly as big of an issue. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/83 "2010-07-12T23:33:44Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Just pointing out the obvious, really. Don’t mention it. > > By the way, might you have a 13-year-old daughter or niece? Why, do you fancy fucking her? I hear you’re into that sort of thing. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/84 "2010-07-12T23:37:59Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > I tried to add this as an edit but I ran out of time: > > Edit: > Let me expand upon that. I don’t give flying fuck about the US with respect to what I was accused of: finding getting one over on the Americans more important than handing over a rapist. I do however give a flying fuck about the US when it comes to things like extradition. I’m a Brit and someone else mentioned Abu Hamza. The man is a class A cunt but I would never support him being extradited to the US as frankly I don’t agree with the US’s treatment of prisoners and if anything the last ten years has shown as that when it comes to foreign nationals the US is in no way to be trusted. I honestly do not think anyone should be extradited to the US, especially not people from Europe. > > You may think Europeans are too soft on criminals. I think the US treats them inhumanely. Any specifics, since Abu Hamza’s case has no similarity to that of Roman Polanski’s? Or are you just sort of blindly protesting the entire American (or Californian, I suppose. Which is it?) justice system? How do you think child rapists SHOULD be treated? ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/85 "2010-07-12T23:43:45Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > According to the U.S. Why is it that they or anyone else should trust the U.S. legal system? And keep in mind that Europe isn’t as big on the [age of consent thing](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/Age_of_Consent.png) as the U.S. is - although it’s 16 in Switzerland most of its neighbors, including Germany, Austria, and Italy set 14 as the age of consent. In nearby Spain it’s 13. I don’t know any of the details about the drugging and whatnot but over there if the case was looked at on the basis of age alone it wouldn’t have been hardly as big of an issue. You absolutely sicken me. In your zeal to slam the US, you are siding with a man who **drugged and then anally raped a thirteen year old girl**. You’re a vile, miserable excuse for a human being. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/86 "2010-07-12T23:47:00Z")
Seriously. People are bending over backward to make this look like it was a simple age-of-consent thing, when it was, in fact a brutal, premeditated rape. They’d rather see Switzerland score some “gotcha-ya!” political points against the US than see a fucking psychopathic rapist go to jail. What the fuck? ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/87 "2010-07-12T23:57:19Z")
> [@Rysto](#): > > You absolutely sicken me. In your zeal to slam the US, you are siding with a man who **drugged and then anally raped a thirteen year old girl**. You’re a vile, miserable excuse for a human being. I am? I’m not siding with anyone. I’m answering your question as stated with a reasonable response - that not everyone believes the U.S. justice system to be as infallible as you believe it to be. Like I said, why should Switzerland assume Polanski’s guilt and associated moral condemnation to be an absolute truth? ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/88 "2010-07-12T23:57:23Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Any specifics, since Abu Hamza’s case has no similarity to that of Roman Polanski’s? Or are you just sort of blindly protesting the entire American (or Californian, I suppose. Which is it?) justice system? How do you think child rapists SHOULD be treated? The case doesn’t but the fact that the US wants him extradited does. If you remember I said “In other words, what he was found guilty of has no bearing, IMHO, on whether or not he should be extradited”. If he is guilty then he should be in a prison within a justice system that I consider humane. I’m not entirely sure that the US can provide that, hence I don’t support the extraditing of either Hamza or Polanski to the US. If they are guilty (and frankly, the Polanski case dates to the 70s when I was either not born or a toddler and I really can’t be bothered reading up on it as whether or not I think he should be extradited doesn’t rely on that) then I guess serving the sentence in a European prison seems like a better idea. I notice no-one seems to have anything to say about the comparison of “fuck their reservations” with the US’s refusal to ratify the ICC treaty despite signing it due to the US’s reservations. As I said, it works both ways. And with that I am going to bed. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/89 "2010-07-12T23:57:49Z")
> [@Arnold\_Winkelried](#): > > Not to hijack the conversation further, but I will say that I am always a little surprised at the amount of discussion that goes on about the Polanski case, when there have been many extradition cases that I think are much more interesting or significant. A couple off the type of my head: I think the US has a preoccupation with sex. Not to belabor the point, but to reply to another poster, I think if the original victim, 30 years removed, didn’t want the case to be brought up again, her wishes should be taken into consideration. I’m not saying that all victims can renounce justice in their name on any circumstance, that would make it too hard to seek justice in many cases. But this case specifically, having been so long, the victim having made peace with it, not wanting to have her name in the tabloids again, and the whole judge issue hanging over the thing seems to warrant an exception > [@Bricker](#): > > Which apparently even India’s officials agree is because of a lack of evidence, consistent with the India-U.S. extradition treaty: I’ve always thought that in the interest of justice, wouldn’t the proper thing to do is extradite him anyway and let them have their trial in India and see just how much evidence they can muster? After all, prosecutors in the US can’t be said to be unwilling to go to trial simply because of that. Sometimes evidence appears during trial, sometimes convictions can be had in other ways. Why would we protect this guy anyway? > [@casdave](#): > > The US had the UK sign an asymmetric fast track extradition treaty which was intended to be used to extradite terrorist suspects - note that this does not require the suspects to actually be charged with an offence in a US court. > > This has caused huge concern in the UK, especially when it was invoked to extradite white collar fraudsters instead of the origninally intended terrorists. > > Its unusual for suspects to be extradited without at least a prima facie case, which usualy involves an _in absentia_ court hearing to list the charges, but that’s what the US has with the UK. > > You will note that there is no such reciprocol arrangement to extrdite suspects from the US to the UK, we have to jump through many more hoops to achieve extradition, so it is incredibly rare for the UK to even bother trying. > > I imagine this is similar position to other EU nations, and the problem is that we now know for absolute certainty that the US routinely uses torture on suspects, many of whom have never been charged with any offence whatsoever, and who do not have proper recourse to independant legal council. > > We had plenty of Irish terrorists who had been convicted of extremely serious offences including multiple murders who the US courts refused to extradite, this being on the grounds that the murders were political. > Now the US is like a big bully who didn’t want to play with everyone else, but when it needs our help, gets all huffy about it. > > The US would like to get it’s hands on Abu Hamza and the UK would love to get rid of him, but the US disgraceful behaviour with regards to suspects has compromised all that. > > So US citizens, what does it feel like to have the boot on the other foot, you lot have been doing this to the UK and no doubt with the wanted individuals of other nations for years, and now you complain, well suck it up!!! If correct, and I have no desire to research if everything you say is up to snuff, then it seems like we are sowing the seeds we plant. Good point > [@Malthus](#): > > May 10, 2010: Judge Espinoza, sitting in LA County, denies the motion to unseal the transcript, noting that Gunson is alive and in the jurisdiction and thus available to testify in first-hand and in person in any California proceeding. Specifically addressing the possible relevance of the transcript to the extradition proceedings, he **cites to the statements of the FDJP that the transcript is irrelevant to the extradition proceeding and relying on those representations, refuses to unseal the transcript for the purposes of sending it to Switzerland**. > July 12, 2010: The FDJP announces that the extradition request is denied b/c of the US failure to provide the Gunson transcript, a failure that was a direct result of their own prior statements that the transcript was uncessary and irrelevant. Why, in the interest of justice, did Espinoza jeopardize a 30+ year old case by making that distinction? Sure it was probably correct and his to make, but if I were the judge and I really wanted Polanski, I unseal it and sent it over certified mail, with multiple copies in case they wanted extras. I wouldn’t make some power play and tip my legal hand simply because I could. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/90 "2010-07-13T00:01:09Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > According to the U.S. Why is it that they or anyone else should trust the U.S. legal system? And keep in mind that Europe isn’t as big on the [age of consent thing](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/Age_of_Consent.png) as the U.S. is - although it’s 16 in Switzerland most of its neighbors, including Germany, Austria, and Italy set 14 as the age of consent. In nearby Spain it’s 13. I don’t know any of the details about the drugging and whatnot but over there if the case was looked at on the basis of age alone it wouldn’t have been hardly as big of an issue. You overlook the fact that age of consent laws usually take into account the gap in age between the two parties. And for some strange reason you seem to cavalierly hand-wave away both the fact that she was drugged and he was in a position of authority and influence over her. Italy: The age of consent in Italy is 14 years, with a close-in-age exception that allows those aged 13 to engage in sexual activity with partners who are less than 3 years older. **The age of consent rises to 16 if one of the participants has some kind of influence on the other (e.g. teacher, tutor, adoptive parent).[6]** Spain: The age of consent in Spain is 13, as specified by the Spanish Penal Code, Article 181(2). However, if deceit is used in gaining the consent of a minor under 16 years an individual can be charged under Article 183(1) upon parental complaint. “181 (1) (Approximate translation: An individual who, by use of deceit, commits sexual abuse with a person over thirteen years and under sixteen years, will be punished with imprisonment for one or two years, or a fine equivalent to twelve to twenty-four months…) (2)(Approximate translation: \*\*To the effects of the previous section, it is considered unconsenting sexual abuse if sexual acts are committed against persons under thirteen years, \*\*unconscious persons or persons whose mental illness is taken advantage of…)” Germany: **The age of consent in Germany is 14, as long as a person over the age of 21 does not exploit a 14–15 year-old person’s lack of capacity for sexual self-determination.** In this rare and special case, a conviction on an individual over the age of 21 requires a complaint from the younger individual; being over 21 and engaging in sexual relations with a minor of that age does not constitute an offense in and of itself. Otherwise the age of consent is 16, although provisions protecting minors against coercion apply until the age of 18. As specified by Sections 176 (Sexual abuse of children) and 182 (Sexual abuse of youths), which read: § 176: **“(1) Whoever commits sexual acts on a person under fourteen (14) years of age (a child) or allows them to be committed on himself by the child, shall be punished by imprisonment from six months to ten years […]”** § 182: “(2) A person over twenty-one years of age who abuses a person under sixteen years of age, in that he: 1. commits sexual acts on the person or allows them to be committed on himself by the person; or 2. induces the person to commit sexual acts on a third person or to allow them to be committed on the person by a third person, and thereby exploits the victim’s lack of capacity for sexual self-determination, shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than three years or a fine. [..] the act shall only be prosecuted upon complaint, unless the prosecuting authority considers ex officio that it is required to enter the case because of the special public interest therein. [..] the court may dispense with punishment pursuant to these provisions if , in consideration of the conduct of the person against whom the act was directed, the wrongfulness of the act is slight.” Austria: **The general age of consent in Austria is 14, as specified by Section 206 of the penal code. (The term unmündig is specified in Section 74 of the penal code.) Paragraph 4 of Section 206 defines a close-in-age exception of max. three years. Section 207b of the penal code contains an exception to the general age of consent: if one of the partners is younger than 16 years of age and “not sufficiently mature to understand the significance of the act”, then the act is punishable.** ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/91 "2010-07-13T00:02:49Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Why, do you fancy fucking her? I hear you’re into that sort of thing. Well, first we need to to establish that you have a daughter or a niece. Is that a yes or no? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/92 "2010-07-13T00:09:04Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > I am? I’m not siding with anyone. I’m answering your question as stated with a reasonable response - that not everyone believes the U.S. justice system to be as infallible as you believe it to be. Like I said, why should Switzerland assume Polanski’s guilt and associated moral condemnation to be an absolute truth? Well, for one, the cite you offered was misleading, and added to the impression that you believe that’s it’s the U.S.‘s puritan views on sex that are at issue. My last post to you shows that even in the countries you cited, what he did is a disgusting crime. Why the Swiss, you and others seek to give Polanski every benefit of the doubt—even when there isn’t one—is friggin’ min-boggling. And disgusting. He is a rapist of the worst order. We’ll I guess she could have been younger. But then you’d probably site those countries that have the age of consent at 12. Or perhaps try to draw some equivalence by pointing to some ancient culture. Or the fucking habits of other species. Unbelievable. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/93 "2010-07-13T00:22:52Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Seriously. People are bending over backward to make this look like it was a simple age-of-consent thing, when it was, in fact a brutal, premeditated rape. They’d rather see Switzerland score some “gotcha-ya!” political points against the US than see a fucking psychopathic rapist go to jail. What the fuck? Yeah, fuck those people. Anyway, my earlier questions have gone unanswered regarding what you think would be “justice” in this case. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/94 "2010-07-13T00:23:27Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Well, for one, the cite you offered was misleading, and added to the impression that you believe that’s it’s the U.S.‘s puritan views on sex that are at issue. My last post to you shows that even in the countries you cited, what he did is a disgusting crime. Why the Swiss, you and others seek to give Polanski every benefit of the doubt—even when there isn’t one—is friggin’ min-boggling. And disgusting. He is a rapist of the worst order. We’ll I guess she could have been younger. But then you’d probably site those countries that have the age of consent at 12. Or perhaps try to draw some equivalence by pointing to some ancient culture. Or the fucking habits of other species. > > Unbelievable. I don’t know the details of the case and I acknowledged as much; I’m not interested in discussing it or defending Polanski. I’m just questioning the perceived infallibility of the U.S. justice system. I don’t know how much the U.S. puritanical views play into it, but I offered that as a possible explanation for why Europeans might not be as quick to condemn him. ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/95 "2010-07-13T00:33:56Z")
If Switzerland had any objections to the evidence against Polanski they would have refused to extradite him on the basis of the lack of evidence. You are inventing justifications out of thin air. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/96 "2010-07-13T01:27:22Z")
I’d guess offhand that: -Switzerland doesn’t really care what Polanski did 30+ years ago. -Switzerland has no incentive to do anything that might prevent celebrities from coming and going, representing as they do a not-insignificant source of tourist income, both from themselves and the people who gather at film festivals and whatnot in hopes of catching sight of celebrities. I can understand why they feel no inclination to lift a finger in this case, though of course they have to go through the motions of trying to seem less callous about it. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/97 "2010-07-13T01:37:38Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Yeah, fuck those people. > Anyway, my earlier questions have gone unanswered regarding what you think would be “justice” in this case. What I think is immaterial. But he was convicted according to due process of law in a court. He then flouted the law and sought sanctuary for a violent crime in another country. “Justice” in this case would be whatever sentence is handed down by a duly sworn judge in the jurisdiction of his offense. Anything less is completely unacceptable, and frankly, anyone who doesn’t think this is true has no respect for the rule of law. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/98 "2010-07-13T01:59:31Z")
Can you think of any example of the Swiss government behaving ethically on any issue? I am sure there must be some, but I certainly cannot think of one. Handing Jews to the Nazis? Keeping Jewish gold for themselves? Helping dictators hide their wealth? Helping citizens of other countries avoid taxes? I hope some Smart Person will come and educate me on Swiss morality. ---
**Author:** ![kidneyfailure](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9f8e36/32.png) [@kidneyfailure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidneyfailure)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/99 "2010-07-13T02:02:32Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > Like I said, why should Switzerland assume Polanski’s guilt and associated moral condemnation to be an absolute truth? Gee, because he pled guilty, maybe? ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383/100 "2010-07-13T02:07:40Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > “Justice” in this case would be whatever sentence is handed down by a duly sworn judge in the jurisdiction of his offense. Anything less is completely unacceptable, and frankly, anyone who doesn’t think this is true has no respect for the rule of law. Of course, this is exactly contrary to how extradition treaties work. The extraditing countries don’t just blindly hand over the accused - they analyze the case and apply their own concepts of due process and justice to the case, then they extradite (or not). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/switzerland-shows-its-true-colors/546383.md?page=6)